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https://x.com/asafronel/status/1749058309884125347?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q The IDF's genocidal erasure of Gaza is extending to its bureaucratic records.
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Jan 21, 2024 20:19
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On brand, they were stealing corpses and bulldozing cemeteries last week.
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Jan 21, 2024 20:25
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pumpinglemma posted:Reality check: If Donald Trump did in fact release a statement tomorrow that he was going to end the genocide and anyone actually believed him, they'd be an idiot. He spent the whole election cycle up to 2016 making self-contradictory claims about his future foreign policy ranging from "we're going to bomb all the brown people" to "no more foreign adventures" so that his supporters could all pretend to themselves that he was only lying to people who disagreed with them. If you want to know his likely behaviour in 2024, look at his behaviour in 2016-2020.
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Jan 21, 2024 20:28
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Trump being worse than Biden on this isn’t convincing to me since Biden is already doing poo poo that is beyond the pale. He’s already passed my threshold of what I can accept and shows no sign of getting better and every day that passes, his position gets worse and worse as the bodies pile up so saying that Trump would be worse is technically correct but it’s like the difference between being shot in the head with a shotgun or with a 50 cal. Anyway https://twitter.com/john_hudson/status/1748853055028703318 I’m not ready for another endless war in the Middle East
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Jan 21, 2024 20:42
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I think there's plenty of evidence that he'd be much worse than Biden on his specific issue. He was extremely pro-Israel, even by the standards of US Presidents, being the first one to recognise the occupied city of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. He is strongly racist against Muslims, and has confirmed that his ban would extend to Gaza. And he took a much harder line on Iran, ripping up the nuclear deal and launching strikes against them. The last of these especially is terrifying to me given that Israel and many in the Republican party will be looking for a full war with Iran to take revenge and shut down its proxies (including Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis) once and for all before Iran develops a nuclear weapon. I think there's a much wider catastrophe brewing in the Middle East and Trump would be the worst possible influence on it. The Biden administration is literally planning an extended military operation against Yemen and the only thing stopping Israel from invading Lebanon is Israel, I'm not sure how much worse a response their could be in terms of antagonizing Iranian proxies. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/01/20/us-military-yemen-houthis/ quote:Officials say they don’t expect operations in Yemen to last years, but they acknowledge it’s unclear when the group’s military capability will be sufficiently eroded All signs point to Joe Biden starting war with Iran before Trump has a chance to get back into office.
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Jan 21, 2024 20:44
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This is not an argument to say that Trump would be better regarding anything about israel, but I think it's wrong to call Tump more pro-israel than Biden. Trump is pro-israel in the sense that he likes whoever likes him and is willing to play ball as long as israel kisses his rear end, and israel has had no problem whatsoever playing him. Joe Biden, on the other hand, is an out-and-proud zionist and has been for decades. As far back as the 80s Biden supported, and was supported by, the far right israeli political party that preceded Likud. Biden is completely ideologically bound to israel and the far-right zionist ideologies espoused by eg. Nethanyahu, which is why Nethanyahu can tell Biden and his admin to gently caress off knowing that there will be no meaningful pushback. Not to say that they couldn't do the same with Trump, they'd probably just have to play to his vanity or whatever. Anyway, all this to say that I think it's wrong to say that Trump is more israel-friendly than Biden. Here's an interesting take from October '22 on the matter in FP, which argues that Trump's support was using israel in service of his own interests, rather than eg. Biden who clearly operates in the best interests of israel first and foremost.
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Jan 21, 2024 21:08
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Marenghi posted:I don't see the contradiction. You've got two guys who are/were president of the worlds foremost imperial power, and a small country with a group locked in a civil war who haven't been letting water reach the side controlled by the US recognized government. They're not letting water reach civilians who need it not to die. This is a horrible war crime analogous to Israel's blockading of aid to Gaza. quote:Your equating the lesser evil between the original argument of two Hitlers, with Hitler and Hitler's enemy who has some unpaid parking fines. If you think forcing women to stay at home or leashed to men, killing/imprisoning/disappearing/exiling religious minorities, and trying to deprive enemy civilian cities of water to force them into submission is analogous to "unpaid parking fines" then sure. I hope whatever the Houthis are doing accelerates the end of the Israeli genocide campaign. I hope that dearly. I am sincerely disturbed by people saying "...and you know what, it's not so bad what they do to the Bahais and women, and they have some good points about the Jews, and the civilians they're killing chose the wrong team..." And if we're throwing Hitler comparisons around, then the comparison certainly applies to the government that purged its country of all remaining Jews but one, is doing the same with other religious minorities, incites violence against them by calling them infiltrators and spies, otherwise represses dissent in a totalitarian manner, and conducts war by constant crimes against humanity. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 21:51
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Civilized Fishbot posted:They're not letting water reach civilians who need it not to die. This is a horrible war crime analogous to Israel's blockading of aid to Gaza. Can you post examples of people here pointing out they have good points about the Jews? That would be horrible and should be exposed.
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Jan 21, 2024 22:08
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Gumball Gumption posted:Can you post examples of people here pointing out they have good points about the Jews? That would be horrible and should be exposed. In this thread, just the one case, here. I'm responding to a user saying that the Houthis aren't actually antisemitic, they've just fallen for Israeli propaganda. Of course this distinction doesn't matter, because what's important isn't whether they're good or bad people in their hearts or whatever, what matters is whether religious minorities are in danger in their territory or not (they're in enormous danger from state repression and state-incited violence). But it's a bullshit idea anyway - I show that Houthi-run schools teach kids that Jews secretly run America and should be destroyed, which isn't Israeli propaganda (Israeli propaganda is that Israel is fighting alone in the world, even America doesn't support Israel enough because it's too antisemitic). "Jews secretly run America" is in fact a Nazi lie, the kind that gets people killed. I explain this and the user says, "well, they're just describing what's in plain sight": moths posted:
So this user thinks the Houthis are describing an important reality when they say the Jews secretly run America. I disagree. I don't want to resurrect an argument from last year, only sharing because you asked me directly. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 22:12
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I am sincerely disturbed by people saying "...and you know what, it's not so bad what they do to the Bahais and women, and they have some good points about the Jews, and the civilians they're killing chose the wrong team..." Civilized Fishbot posted:In this thread, just the one case, here. I'm responding to a user saying that the Houthis aren't actually antisemitic, they've just fallen for Israeli propaganda. I don't know guy, I feel like those two aren't really the same thing. Civilized Fishbot posted:"Jews secretly run America" is in fact a Nazi lie, the kind that gets people killed. Since you had to go digging in posts from December to find something offensive, you should probably include the rest of what that user wrote, which should make it obvious to you that they aren't saying Jews secretly run America. moths posted:I'm really not sure what to tell you. So this user isn't saying that "Jews secretly run America" is accurate. They're saying the Yemenis are using "Israel" and "Jews" interchangeably (just like Israel wants), and that's how they can arrive at "Jews secretly run America": Because Israel gets everything it wants from America. I don't know whether it's accurate that Yemenis understand that phrase this way, but you're really badly misrepresenting what that user said. vvv Inserted a link back to moths post to make clear who said what. Esran fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 22:49
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Esran posted:I don't know guy, I feel like those two aren't really the same thing. I think the user in question is moths, not Civilized Fishbot, unless I misread the post you're responding to.
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Jan 21, 2024 22:55
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Esran posted:you should probably include the rest of what that user wrote, which should make it obvious to you that they aren't saying Jews secretly run America. They're responding to "the Houthis say the Jews secretly run America" with "there's evidence for what they're saying." Come on. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 21, 2024 22:58
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I think it's also worth point out that if you believe there was a genocide of Yemeni Jews, then Israel was both an instigator of that genocide (by stoking hatred and distrust of Jews through the intentional conflation of Judaism and Zionism) and an active participant in it (by arranging for the permanent relocation of Yemeni Jews out of Yemen). To frame it as Israel 'rescuing' them from oppression is to ignore the entire historic relationship between Zionism and Judaism.
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Jan 21, 2024 22:58
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Darth Walrus posted:https://x.com/asafronel/status/1749058309884125347?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q An integral part of any ethnic cleansing/genocide. The more you damage simple records like that, the more you degrade the basic functions and cultural linkages of your victims, and the harder it is for any survivors of your actions to seek later redress, because now they can't do things like show "I was born in this country in 2002 in this hospital, here are the records proving as much".
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Jan 21, 2024 23:00
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Civilized Fishbot posted:They're responding to "the Houthis say the Jews secretly run America" with "there's evidence for what they're saying." Come on. No, they're responding to "The Houthis say the Jews secretly run America" with "By 'the Jews' they mean Israel, and If you've only ever seen Israel get everything it wants from the US, you might shorthand that as 'Israel controls America'". Which is extremely different from quote:They're responding to "the Houthis say the Jews secretly run America" with "there's evidence for what they're saying." So you come on.
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Jan 21, 2024 23:04
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I'm partly jewish. relatives were German Jews who fled and survived. It is insane to me that we have such a hard time saying, "Israel's government/military and aggression is bad, but this has nothing to do with just regular jewish people. Of course taking hostages and raping them is going to stir up a hornets nest, but the answer isn't, you know, doing war crimes and killing thousands." If you're pro zionist, you know what you are? You're an rear end in a top hat and pro-genocide at this point. That's it. Doesn't have to be about race or any of that other crap. Like holy poo poo. Besides, if we're going to attack a group entirely because of their religion, it's born again christians that should be mocked and bullied at every turn. They are evil motherfuckers one and all and are one of the reasons we're in this mess (and frankly most of the messes) in the first place. (Note I'm saying born again, not all christians. Some of them are okay I guess for believing in an incompetent and cowardly invisible bearded dude, but you do you boo). Should my tax dollars go towards funding a genocide? No thank you. Now the real question is, are the boycotts on Starbucks or any of other cooperations that are funding the genocide actually doing anything? I'm unsure (slash I don't think so). LionArcher fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 23:09
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Esran posted:No, they're responding to "The Houthis say the Jews secretly run America" with "By 'the Jews' they mean Israel, and If you've only ever seen Israel get everything it wants from the US, you might shorthand that as 'Israel controls America'". Which is a defense of conspiratorial antisemitism! "When the Houthis talk about Jews, they really just mean the evil Jews, the ones that secretly run our government, and they're dead-on about it. And you can understand how they struggle to tell the good Jews apart from the evil Jews, we gotta cut them some slack on that one." "The Jews secretly run America" is not a true statement and there is not a grain of truth in it. It's completely incorrect whether it appears in a racist textbook in Yemen or a speech at a Klan meeting in America, and in either context it's being said to motivate the violent persecution of minorities. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 23:13
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You can keep reinterpreting that user's post to fit your belief that this thread is full of antisemites, but that's not what they said. They said that they thought the Houthis were talking about Israel, and that it is very reasonable for someone who doesn't know better, looking at the relationship between Israel and the US, to conclude that Israel has some hold over America. That's not remotely the same as what you claimed they said. Also I like how you decided to conflate Israel with Jews yourself, nice work. Edit: Also, no one said this quote:And you can understand how they struggle to tell the good Jews apart from the evil Jews, we gotta cut them some slack on that one Please stop making up things people didn't say to get mad at. Esran fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 23:22
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Anti-Zionism is not anti-semitism.Esran posted:Also I like how you decided to conflate Israel with Jews yourself, nice work. Every single post of theirs in this thread has attempted to conflate Judaism with Zionism, explicitly to try to silence any criticism of Zionism. It's literally the only trick Zionists know. HazCat fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 23:22
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Esran posted:You can keep reinterpreting that user's post to fit your belief that this thread is full of antisemites, but that's not what they said. This thread is not full of antisemites. One poster said something stupid in defense of antisemites. I don't think any user here is antisemitic, and have never said otherwise. quote:They said that they thought the Houthis were talking about Israel, and that it is very reasonable for someone who doesn't know better, looking at the relationship between Israel and the US, to conclude that Israel has some hold over America. The "not knowing any better" is antisemitism that gets people killed. "Jews secretly run America" is not true, and to say it is to say something false - and lethally false, in the sense that people get killed when wackjobs believe this. That's what the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting was. HazCat posted:Anti-Zionism is not anti-semitism. Yes, this is why "the Jews secretly run America" is not antizionism but antisemitism. HazCat posted:Every single post of theirs in this thread has attempted to conflate Judaism with Zionism, explicitly to try to silence any criticism of Zionism. This is an obvious lie and a deeply offensive one. I'm not a Zionist, I've suffered serious consequences in my life for opposing Israel - I've lost friends, been estranged from family, lost job opportunities, lost positions of significance in religious congregations, been arrested. I am describing the Houthi conflation of Yemeni Jews and global Jews with Zionism, and the many many vile crimes committed by its followers, as dangerous and evil because it led to the final destruction of the Yemeni Jewish community and created a rhetorical base for similar campaigns against Bahai Yemenis. I don't want to derail this thread, especially not over another derail from a year ago. I just don't have what it takes not to reply when I see people saying untrue things about incitement to religious violence and other crimes against humanity - the same reason my actual life has often been derailed by pushing back against Zionist bullshit. If there's a moratorium on Houthi stuff then I'll respect it, but if there's gonna be bullshit, I do not have what it takes not to reply, sorry. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 23:28
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Why the gently caress are you litigating what someone said a year ago Christ. Shut the gently caress up.
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Jan 21, 2024 23:29
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Civilized Fishbot posted:This is an obvious lie and a deeply offensive one. I'm not a Zionist, I've suffered serious consequences in my life for opposing Israel - I've lost friends, been estranged from family, lost job opportunities, been arrested. None of that changes the fact that you are still extremely misrepresenting that post as antisemitic when it is most definately not, and saw fit to dredge it up from last year in order to tilt at windmills. People are supporting Houthi actions because they are actively opposing a genocide, not because they love the houthis because they are antisemitic.
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Jan 21, 2024 23:54
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I don't want to derail this thread, especially not over another derail from a year ago... If there's a moratorium on Houthi stuff then I'll respect it, but if there's gonna be bullshit, I do not have what it takes not to reply, sorry. "Nobody talk about the only group inflicting damage on Israel's ability to wage genocide or I'll derail the thread."
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Jan 21, 2024 23:59
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National Parks posted:None of that changes the fact that you are still extremely misrepresenting that post as antisemitic when it is most definately not, and saw fit to dredge it up from last year in order to tilt at windmills. People are supporting Houthi actions because they are actively opposing a genocide, not because they love the houthis because they are antisemitic. I did not describe it as antisemitic. I said it said the Houthis make good points about the Jews, which is true - it responded to a Houthi propaganda claim about the Jews controling America by validating it as a credible observation about geopolitics. I don't think anyone in this thread is antisemitic or has said anything antisemitic. If I thought this thread were some weird hive of bigotry I wouldn't post here. And I sincerely trust that if anyone said anything antisemitic, it would be probed or banned etc. Nobody here loves the Houthis because they're antisemitic. I was asked for an example of someone in this thread saying the Houthis make good points about the Jews, and grabbed the one example I could remember. I don't want to litigate it, I was just responding to a request that was made of me. Marenghi posted:"Nobody talk about the only group inflicting damage on Israel's ability to wage genocide or I'll derail the thread." I think Hamas is doing a really good job inflicting damage on Israel's ability to wage genocide, much much much much more than the Houthis. If not for Hamas, I can't imagine. I'd put Hezbollah up there too. Probably the Iranian government. And we should support all these groups in the sense that we want their efforts - whether you think they're cynical or whatever or not - to halt Israel's genocide. I think this is true even if they're all engaged in horrible human rights abuses. But when someone says or implies that they're not, or starts defending the human rights abuses as not-that-bad or they-just-don't-know-better it gets my hackles up, because it's reminiscent of the Zionist poo poo I've had tk deal with my whole life. Can't count how many times I've had to hear "no, when they say Arabs they mean terrorists, they just don't know better, it's the neighborhood, so when they say we need to crush the Arabs..." Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Jan 22, 2024 |
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Jan 22, 2024 00:00
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Was wondering if we could seek a humanitarian pause on the arguing, this seems pretty interesting, Hamas released a 17-page document summarizing (in their own narrative) what happened on Oct 7 & why they did it. most of it isn't shocking if you've followed the statements they've disseminated. This part's fairly interesting though: https://twitter.com/ryangrim/status/1749106683161227353 Hamas is either confident enough in their version of the events to present it in front of the ICC, or they've (probably correctly) surmised that an ICC investigation into the war would be more damning for Israel.
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Jan 22, 2024 01:08
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Marenghi posted:"Nobody talk about the only group inflicting damage on Israel's ability to wage genocide or I'll derail the thread." Which group is that the Houthi's? What have they done to damage Israel's ability to wage genocide?
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Jan 22, 2024 01:13
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Neurolimal posted:Was wondering if we could seek a humanitarian pause on the arguing, this seems pretty interesting, Hamas released a 17-page document summarizing (in their own narrative) what happened on Oct 7 & why they did it. most of it isn't shocking if you've followed the statements they've disseminated. This part's fairly interesting though: Oh I'm definitely going to have to read this. Wonder if they're willing to throw some of the people who went off mission under the bus.
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Jan 22, 2024 01:17
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socialsecurity posted:Which group is that the Houthi's? What have they done to damage Israel's ability to wage genocide? They have been threatening an important global trade lane in an attempt to exert pressure on international trade by increasing risk and/or costs. Their condition is the end of the genocide in Gaza. This has been in the news quite a lot recently so I'm surprised you're not aware of it. The genocide hasn't stopped but the Houthis aren't a global superpower, but it looks like they're trying to do what they can with what they have, and as far as I know they're the only group of people actually (and literally) putting their necks on the line.
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Jan 22, 2024 01:18
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Neurolimal posted:Was wondering if we could seek a humanitarian pause on the arguing, this seems pretty interesting, Hamas released a 17-page document summarizing (in their own narrative) what happened on Oct 7 & why they did it. most of it isn't shocking if you've followed the statements they've disseminated. This part's fairly interesting though:
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Jan 22, 2024 01:30
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An ICC trial exclusively targeting Hamas at a time when the majority of the world is in agreement that Israel is committing a genocide would be a rather excellent way to jettison any remaining goodwill & faith offered by the world outside the western core.
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Jan 22, 2024 01:48
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I mean Hamas' version of events is that they took civilian hostages, which is unambiguously a war crime. It's probably more that Hamas is confident Israel will not allow any such investigation to take place (although one wonders if the ICC could just issue warrants for Hamas' leadership given that they do not dispute their guilt). Since Israel already was holding a vastly larger number of hostages than Hamas was able to capture on 10/7, what exactly is the path forward to free Palestinian hostages that doesn't involve obtaining hostages and leveraging them for a trade? Or is the only ethical move to leave your people languishing in an Israeli prison indefinitely and hope the rules-based international order suddenly starts caring about Palestinian lives? If one side is able to take hostages at their leisure with the support of the most powerful military empire that has ever existed and the other side is a uniquely unethical and savage horde of barbarians for attempting to secure hostages, specifically for the purpose of freeing their own people, and who are held in much greater numbers at that, what exactly is going on? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67600015 BBC article which points out that pre-10/11 Israel held at least 4x the number of hostages that were captured on 10/7 prior to the raid. And if you don't like the comparison of people held in indefinitely without charge to hostages, just imagine Hamas doesnt have hostages, but is holding people without charging them, an apparently totally fine and legal and keeping with the western tradition of a thriving democracy thing to do.
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Jan 22, 2024 02:50
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I mean Hamas' version of events is that they took civilian hostages, which is unambiguously a war crime. It's probably more that Hamas is confident Israel will not allow any such investigation to take place (although one wonders if the ICC could just issue warrants for Hamas' leadership given that they do not dispute their guilt). Is Hamas at war with Israel?
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Jan 22, 2024 03:38
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Google Jeb Bush posted:Oh I'm definitely going to have to read this. Wonder if they're willing to throw some of the people who went off mission under the bus. Nope, it’s pretty much what you’d expect:
Looks like they’re going all in on trying to garner as much sympathy as possible by putting out this propaganda piece. Or maybe propaganda piece is the wrong phrase, as it seems to be filled with outright lies 
Kalit fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Jan 22, 2024 |
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Jan 22, 2024 05:22
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Kalit posted:Nope, it’s pretty much what you’d expect: There's a lot more in the document than that. I think this is very disingenuous framing of what they're putting out there by focusing only on the October 7 section. Dismissing it as filled with outright lies is just lazy. It's a 17 page document, it's not that long of a read. Why don't you give your take on the rest of it?
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Jan 22, 2024 05:33
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enahs posted:There's a lot more in the document than that. I think this is very disingenuous framing of what they're putting out there by focusing only on the October 7 section. Dismissing it as filled with outright lies is just lazy. It's a 17 page document, it's not that long of a read. Why don't you give your take on the rest of it? I was responding to Google Jeb Bush’s thoughts, which was specifically about Oct 7th. I wasn’t trying to give a full review on the document. Kalit fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Jan 22, 2024 |
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Jan 22, 2024 05:37
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Kalit posted:Looks like they’re going all in on trying to garner as much sympathy as possible by putting out this propaganda piece. Or maybe propaganda piece is the wrong phrase, as it seems to be filled with outright lies How are you determining anything in the document to be lies? Do you have additional sources that aren't from israeli government or other known israeli propaganda sources? Because to the best of my understanding israel has not permitted any independent investigation into anything related to 10/7. Even if you are fully ideologically opposed to Hamas and believe everything they publish is a lie in service of something or other (of what I'm not sure. resisting genocide? resisting oppression?) this document is at least as reliable anything that has been released by israel or israeli sources, even if disseminated via CNN or the BBC.
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Jan 22, 2024 05:43
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Even if it's all lies and propaganda, they're doing a hell of a better job of presenting themselves to the world compared to Israel's relentless bloodthirst.
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Jan 22, 2024 06:02
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Fister Roboto posted:Even if it's all lies and propaganda, they're doing a hell of a better job of presenting themselves to the world compared to Israel's relentless bloodthirst. What an absolutely pointless and useless metric to use. "Better than the IDF" describes a massive portion of humanity, and does little to distinguish whether a group is responsible for illegal or reprehensible activity.
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Jan 22, 2024 06:52
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Grip it and rip it posted:What an absolutely pointless and useless metric to use. "Better than the IDF" describes a massive portion of humanity, and does little to distinguish whether a group is responsible for illegal or reprehensible activity. I'd say it's a pretty relevant metric when one of the few other sources of first-hand information is the IDF.
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Jan 22, 2024 08:18
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Given that hamas are fighting the IDF and not the rest of humanity, it seems like a relatively reasonable comparison
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Jan 22, 2024 08:23
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