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Cugel the Clever posted:Her description of her father suggests he's a creampuff himself. And, honestly, so does a reading of the biblical myths which doesn't take the entity asserting itself as the universe's just and benevolent "God" at face value: Lucifer's no perverted, evil psychopath, just someone who offered humanity the ability to perceive good from evil. This upsets Yahweh because, woops! his draconian subjugation of humanity to his petty whims is obviously pretty drat evil. But Yahweh still had power and cast Lucifer into the pit and shoveled generations upon generations of the worst humanity has to offer onto him. yeah. i believe someone said it upthread or maybe somewhere else but i get the idea that heaven is very much "order and conformity above all" while hell is that liberterian town that went up its own rear end and let the bears come in. Lucifer and the sins dont give a poo poo as long as no one guns for his throne. meanwhile in heaven for every angel like Collin who wants to do something good and help people at his own painful expense, you have ones like adam who are basicaly just doing this gig because they psychos who want to hurt people with carte blanch and get to go on killing teames in the hell ghetto. like lets all be real, if heaven exists in the way that its populaly described, it would probably suck poo poo.
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Jan 21, 2024 06:42
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Dapper_Swindler posted:yeah. i believe someone said it upthread or maybe somewhere else but i get the idea that heaven is very much "order and conformity above all" while hell is that liberterian town that went up its own rear end and let the bears come in. Lucifer and the sins dont give a poo poo as long as no one guns for his throne. meanwhile in heaven for every angel like Collin who wants to do something good and help people at his own painful expense, you have ones like adam who are basicaly just doing this gig because they psychos who want to hurt people with carte blanch and get to go on killing teames in the hell ghetto. If we're going by the spoilers on the playing cards there's a card depicting the "winners" in heaven and it looks like a pretty nice place to live. Interestingly enough humans who go to heaven don't look human either. Although their heavenly forms are very pretty. But then again there's no accounting for what goes on behind the scenes.
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Jan 21, 2024 07:04
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Flopsy posted:If we're going by the spoilers on the playing cards there's a card depicting the "winners" in heaven and it looks like a pretty nice place to live. Interestingly enough humans who go to heaven don't look human either. Although their heavenly forms are very pretty. But then again there's no accounting for what goes on behind the scenes. yeah i assume we see heaven in the show. i assume heaven is actually mostly nice, just very very very exclusive and the rules keep changing to narrow the invites
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Jan 21, 2024 07:10
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Dapper_Swindler posted:yeah i assume we see heaven in the show. i assume heaven is actually mostly nice, just very very very exclusive and the rules keep changing to narrow the invites The question that raises is what about the people already there? If the rules keep getting tighter are there "winners" who get kicked out because they no longer qualify under the new management standards?
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Jan 21, 2024 07:21
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Cugel the Clever posted:Her description of her father suggests he's a creampuff himself. And, honestly, so does a reading of the biblical myths which doesn't take the entity asserting itself as the universe's just and benevolent "God" at face value: Lucifer's no perverted, evil psychopath, just someone who offered humanity the ability to perceive good from evil. This upsets Yahweh because, woops! his draconian subjugation of humanity to his petty whims is obviously pretty drat evil. But Yahweh still had power and cast Lucifer into the pit and shoveled generations upon generations of the worst humanity has to offer onto him. The lack of perception of good and evil is the reason that children are innocent, even when they do things that, should an adult do them, would be perceived as evil. Innocence means the freedom to do as you please without actually committing sin, because you have no concept of what is right and what is wrong. That's the entire reason that Lucifer was jealous of humanity in the first place. Because they were actually free to do as they pleased, save for one thing, while angels were not.
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Jan 21, 2024 07:24
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Just stumbled into this show, caught up to e4. Very good and also some of the Angel bits are tough to watch.
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Jan 21, 2024 07:25
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Dapper_Swindler posted:
Yeah, only eight. Two the next on the 25th with the last two on Feb. 1st Cugel the Clever posted:Her description of her father suggests he's a creampuff himself. And, honestly, so does a reading of the biblical myths which doesn't take the entity asserting itself as the universe's just and benevolent "God" at face value: Lucifer's no perverted, evil psychopath, just someone who offered humanity the ability to perceive good from evil. This upsets Yahweh because, woops! his draconian subjugation of humanity to his petty whims is obviously pretty drat evil. But Yahweh still had power and cast Lucifer into the pit and shoveled generations upon generations of the worst humanity has to offer onto him. Lucifer's view point is pretty much, let whatever poo poo happens, happen. He doesn't really give a drat one way or another, unless his family is involved, otherwise the exterminations and the like really doesn't bother him. He's not a bad guy, but between all his ideas being ignored in Heaven(sound familar to someone?) and getting thrown into hell, he's more or less lost any passion he had. Seeing the worse of humanity for all time didn't help. Lilith is the one who really made hell into what it is. She thrived while her husband merely existed. Adder Moray posted:That's the entire reason that Lucifer was jealous of humanity in the first place. Because they were actually free to do as they pleased, save for one thing, while angels were not. The Lucifer in this has a different origin, that needs to be kept in mind. The Last Call fucked around with this message at 07:57 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 07:53
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Adder Moray posted:The lack of perception of good and evil is the reason that children are innocent, even when they do things that, should an adult do them, would be perceived as evil. Innocence means the freedom to do as you please without actually committing sin, because you have no concept of what is right and what is wrong. Lucifer again comes off as a friend to humanity in that take. e: more directly thread-relevant content: Hazbin good; Helluva Boss good; more please! Cugel the Clever fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 08:07
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Google Jeb Bush posted:Just stumbled into this show, caught up to e4. Very good and also some of the Angel bits are tough to watch. If you're just joining in the original pilot is still up on youtube. It's more or the less the prologue episode and there's a sister series called Helluva boss that also has broadway musical numbers and baller animation. Although the protagonists and plots between the shows differ wildly. Hazbin Hotel is more heavy handed about potential consequences on a cosmic scale while Helluva boss is more slice of life.
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Jan 21, 2024 08:47
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It's also very likely that Charlie has been separated from the worst of hell simply because nobody wants to hurt the King's daughter no matter how little they respect her. Threaten Charlie the wrong way and Lucifer is going to give you a bad time if he hears about it, now that she's actually making an independent effort she's opening herself up to dangers she'd never encountered before. So her world view is likely very sheltered just from who her parents are in the grand scheme of things.
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Jan 21, 2024 08:57
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I"m really digging Hazbin Hotel alooot. Angel's SA was very uncomfortable but man, they handled it pretty well. Kevin is so good at singing. LOSER was a very catchy tune. Honestly curious what Alastor's end game is with knowing the information about angels being killed by one of the leaders. Charlie is defintely beein sheltered her whole life. She really tries to spin something into positive for everything. Kinda curious how far away Lucifier or her mother is like that too.
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Jan 21, 2024 09:41
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I watched the Hazbin Hotel pilot last night and, uh, was there a different one ever released? Like a lot shorter, with terrible geometric character designs and a lot more swearing and no musical numbers?Cugel the Clever posted:So pre-apple humans were pet psychopaths Yahweh had running around in a zoo doing who knows what and, when Lucifer encouraged Eve to use her mind to consider the impact of her actions (and perhaps critically assess her relationship with Yahweh), Yahweh cast them out into abject desperation and imposed eternal damnation any human who'd violate his rules? And then failed to provide concrete evidence that his rules and consequences exist? Having grown up in a really lovely home, I was never able to see the garden of eden story as anything other than an abusive parent hurting his children for daring to defy him in the smallest way.
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Jan 21, 2024 10:33
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The Last Call posted:The Lucifer in this has a different origin, that needs to be kept in mind. But the post I was quoting wasn't about the show's origin Cugel the Clever posted:So pre-apple humans were pet psychopaths Yahweh had running around in a zoo doing who knows what and, when Lucifer encouraged Eve to use her mind to consider the impact of her actions (and perhaps critically assess her relationship with Yahweh), Yahweh cast them out into abject desperation and imposed eternal damnation any human who'd violate his rules? And then failed to provide concrete evidence that his rules and consequences exist? I don't find contrarian readings of fiction particularly interesting, though. EDIT: And I mean that irrespective of how you feel about God's role in the story. The serpent literally lies on page to Eve about what the tree does in order to get her to eat the fruit, deliberately sabotaging paradise. Arguing Lucifer was trying to help is like saying "well, the government lied about how bad marijuana is, so I can clearly trust this meth dealer hanging outside of the school." Adder Moray fucked around with this message at 12:08 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 11:48
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Megillah Gorilla posted:I watched the Hazbin Hotel pilot last night and, uh, was there a different one ever released? Like a lot shorter, with terrible geometric character designs and a lot more swearing and no musical numbers? No, there was only ever one Hazbin Hotel pilot. It was made over four years ago, not getting confused between Helluva Boss pilot are you? That has more swearing and no musical numbers until the end credits. Adder Moray posted:But the post I was quoting wasn't about the show's origin Oh well, neer mind then! Lord_Magmar posted:It's also very likely that Charlie has been separated from the worst of hell simply because nobody wants to hurt the King's daughter no matter how little they respect her. Threaten Charlie the wrong way and Lucifer is going to give you a bad time if he hears about it, now that she's actually making an independent effort she's opening herself up to dangers she'd never encountered before. Pretty much so. Both Lucifer and Lilith are the top two most powerful demons in hell, who wants to screw with them? Some might fear them due to the connection with God alone. Kicker is Charlier is the third most powerful demon but she's so nice she never shows it, so she isn't given the respect by everyone. Yeah, she could thrash Alastor, probably easily. He isn't as strong as the sins or Stolas for example. Charlie is, and more.
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Jan 21, 2024 11:57
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The Last Call posted:No, there was only ever one Hazbin Hotel pilot. It was made over four years ago, not getting confused between Helluva Boss pilot are you? That has more swearing and no musical numbers until the end credits. No, it wasn't the Helluva Boss pilot. I went from watching that to the rest of the series, mostly in the one night. drat, I'm confused now*. All the times I said I bounced off the Hazbin pilot, I was thinking of something else entirely and have no idea what it was. * and more than a little embarrassed at myself
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Jan 21, 2024 13:23
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Megillah Gorilla posted:No, it wasn't the Helluva Boss pilot. I went from watching that to the rest of the series, mostly in the one night. There's a ton of indie shows out there online so it could have been any one of them. Three other good shows: Murder Drones The Amazing Digital Circus Lackadaisy
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Jan 21, 2024 13:55
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I hope both Hazbin and Helluva continue for a long time, there’s a lot of mileage you can get out of the setting and characters Speaking of, the latter is supposed to come back in April right? Also do we have any concrete proof of the former getting a second season/when said season is supposed to start or is that just a rumor (it makes sense at least)?
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Jan 21, 2024 14:50
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Larryb posted:I hope both Hazbin and Helluva continue for a long time, there’s a lot of mileage you can get out of the setting and characters Helluva Boss is pretty much confirmed to be four seasons. Hazbin Hotel is said to have a longer life span. Hazbin Hotel season 2 was announced the same day as 1 was, it's already in production.
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Jan 21, 2024 14:54
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The Last Call posted:Helluva Boss is pretty much confirmed to be four seasons. Cool, hopefully it’ll drop not long after the first one finishes then It’s been brought up before but I’m sort of curious if there will ever be any direct crossover between the two shows aside from maybe a few easter eggs/the Sins at most or if that’s not feasible due to behind the scenes reasons (though they did decide to continue Hazbin from where the pilot left off but not upload said pilot to Amazon for whatever reason) Larryb fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 15:10
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The Last Call posted:There's a ton of indie shows out there online so it could have been any one of them. I’d add angel hare with the caviet that it’s analog horror with a twist and you can finish both seasons in a half hour. Also satina which has only like 3 episodes but is mostly just weirdly cute and wholesome.
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Jan 21, 2024 17:01
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Megillah Gorilla posted:Having grown up in a really lovely home, I was never able to see the garden of eden story as anything other than an abusive parent hurting his children for daring to defy him in the smallest way. Adder Moray posted:I don't find contrarian readings of fiction particularly interesting, though.  I enjoy fiction that reassesses the framing of plots from well-known stories. To immediately reject such as "contrarian" is to be overly wedded to the source material. While some works along those lines are absolutely just a naive "no, gently caress you, dad!" rebellion or being edgy for clicks, there's some great content out there.
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Jan 21, 2024 18:09
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Adder Moray posted:The lack of perception of good and evil is the reason that children are innocent, even when they do things that, should an adult do them, would be perceived as evil. Innocence means the freedom to do as you please without actually committing sin, because you have no concept of what is right and what is wrong. Although exactly how integral that version of the Lucifer story is to Christianity is itself debatable. Not that I really know much about the subject, but I did share a forum with a devout Catholic theology major once who very loudly insisted that that the snake=satan=lucifer=fallen-angel rendition of the story isn't actually Biblical and is mainly the result of generations of Christians misinterpreting a Biblical insult about the King of Babylon.
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Jan 21, 2024 18:26
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Didn’t the Snake = Satan thing first come from the Paradise Lost novel (which was basically biblical fanfiction) and it somehow got mixed into the official canon over time? Similarly, I don’t believe Lucifer’s fall is actually mentioned in the Bible either Larryb fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 18:33
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The most important thing I remember from the Bible is do NOT make fun of bald people.
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Jan 21, 2024 18:46
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Larryb posted:Didn’t the Snake = Satan thing first come from the Paradise Lost novel (which was basically biblical fanfiction) and it somehow got mixed into the official canon over time? yeah, most of modern christians conscepts of hell come from dante or milton or weird medival scholars. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 19:01
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I think we can set the countdown before Charlie's "History of Hell" storybook time is revealed to be an unreliable narrative, too.
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Jan 21, 2024 19:33
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Also I will be shocked if we don’t get a backstory episode on Charlie and/or Vaggie at some point
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Jan 21, 2024 19:43
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Madurai posted:I think we can set the countdown before Charlie's "History of Hell" storybook time is revealed to be an unreliable narrative, too. yeah. i think the history is partly bullshit at the very least.
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Jan 21, 2024 19:48
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Madurai posted:I think we can set the countdown before Charlie's "History of Hell" storybook time is revealed to be an unreliable narrative, too. Possibly, although there are little hints in the pictures of things beyond what's in Charlie's narrative. For example when she says "Angels worshipped good and shielded all from evil" we get an image of a giant light lady and a giant grinning red lady in the bottom corners that weren't mentioned at all by Charlie. (Some kind of pseudo-Zoroastrian dual deities thing maybe?) So I think it's going to be more that Charlie's story is basically all true but leaves a bunch of important details out.
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Jan 21, 2024 20:41
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We’ll be meeting her dad this week apparently so maybe we’ll get a little more history then (I assume her mom won’t be too far behind at this point as well)
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Jan 21, 2024 20:43
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Dapper_Swindler posted:yeah, most of modern christians conscepts of hell come from dante or milton or weird medival scholars. Literally just had an argument with someone about the seven rings and the impression I got is they don't know the difference between the Bible and Dante's self insert fanfiction.
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Jan 21, 2024 20:45
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Where did the whole “Lucifer is a fallen angel” thing first originate from anyway, Paradise Lost? Because in the Bible he’s just kind of there at a couple points (I forget if the name “Hell” is even mentioned for that matter) In fact, the closest the latter gets to actually mentioning a fall of some kind isn’t until Revelation Larryb fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 20:49
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Helluva Boss and Hazbin Hotel have been open about mixing up various parts of Actual Bible Stuff, Jewish and Christian non-Biblical folklore, medieval and renaissance demonology, and Dante and Milton's fancy fanfics.Larryb posted:Where did the whole “Lucifer is a fallen angel” thing first originate from anyway, Paradise Lost? Because in the Bible he’s just kind of there at a couple points (I forget if the name “Hell” is even mentioned for that matter) Lucifer as a distinct character and not just a fancy name for Venus (the planet) is more or less the result of translations of a passage in the Book of Isaiah that in-context is Isaiah talking poo poo about an unnamed Babylonian king, who is introduced as "the morning star" (meaning, the planet Venus, which is so bright that you can sometimes see it during the day) who had fallen from heaven. Lucifer as a fallen angel who became the devil is a result of generations of Christian tradition taking this passage from Isaiah in conjunction with some stuff from the Gospel of Luke, Revelations, and preexisting beliefs about fallen angels.
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Jan 21, 2024 21:29
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Funky Valentine posted:Helluva Boss and Hazbin Hotel have been open about mixing up various parts of Actual Bible Stuff, Jewish and Christian non-Biblical folklore, medieval and renaissance demonology, and Dante and Milton's fancy fanfics. Essentially the stories are so old it's inevitable they start to blend and remix into themselves. I mean the story of Lilith is also Jewish folklore/fanfiction from a very controversial sect and generally considered non-canon in any religious sense. Anyone complaining about the lore of the show not being Bible accurate isn't grasping the fact the plot is in fact cherry picking from multiple sources in addition to creative interpretation.
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Jan 21, 2024 21:39
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Funky Valentine posted:Helluva Boss and Hazbin Hotel have been open about mixing up various parts of Actual Bible Stuff, Jewish and Christian non-Biblical folklore, medieval and renaissance demonology, and Dante and Milton's fancy fanfics. yeah and i am fine with that mostly because while i am vaguely spiritual, i mostly find all the religion and history and mixing and blending more interesting and its pretty clear Viv and other writers have at least read a couple books on them. Flopsy posted:Essentially the stories are so old it's inevitable they start to blend and remix into themselves. I mean the story of Lilith is also Jewish folklore/fanfiction from a very controversial sect and generally considered non-canon in any religious sense. Anyone complaining about the lore of the show not being Bible accurate isn't grasping the fact the plot is in fact cherry picking from multiple sources in addition to creative interpretation. this. the new testimate is basicaly 4 versions of a story about jesus for different audiances and time periods. Acts is basicaly a sequel to luke and mostly a biography on paul. alot of reasons christianty sorta became what it was because paul won the factional war between him and the hellenistic christian converts and alot of the deciples and the more jewish oriented sect.
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Jan 21, 2024 22:33
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Larryb posted:Also I will be shocked if we don’t get a backstory episode on Charlie and/or Vaggie at some point Good news, we are going to learn about all the characters that were human. As in, we'll actually see them when they were human. Or so Viv said.
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Jan 21, 2024 22:55
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The Last Call posted:Good news, we are going to learn about all the characters that were human. Charlie isn't human though (or at least is technically half human on her mother's side depending on how you want to interpret Lilith). I think Alastor is the only one of the bunch that was confirmed to have been one once unless I'm not aware of/forgetting something (there are plenty of cases where some demons were literally born in Hell) But in any case, good to hear we're getting some backstory eventually
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Jan 21, 2024 23:06
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Larryb posted:Charlie isn't human though (or at least is technically half human on her mother's side depending on how you want to interpret Lilith). I think Alastor is the only one of the bunch that was confirmed to have been one once unless I'm not aware of/forgetting something (there are plenty of cases where some demons were literally born in Hell) Characters in Hazbin Hotel that were human: Alastor, Niffty, Husk, Vaggie, Cherri Bomb, Sir Pentious and Angel Dust Charlie was born in hell. Some of their backgrounds have popped up in little comics made available on the Hazbin Hotel site.
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Jan 21, 2024 23:12
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The Last Call posted:Good news, we are going to learn about all the characters that were human. Not sure they'd go that route, though, as it doesn't jive perfectly with HB's worldbuilding and might not be zany enough for the show's tone.
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Jan 21, 2024 23:14
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Larryb posted:Charlie isn't human though (or at least is technically half human on her mother's side depending on how you want to interpret Lilith). I think Alastor is the only one of the bunch that was confirmed to have been one once unless I'm not aware of/forgetting something (there are plenty of cases where some demons were literally born in Hell) Actually a majority of the characters that we've met so far are former humans, far more than Helluva Boss. I think the only ones that straight up aren't are Charlie and Lucifer. I think every other major character was once human, this includes the angels. I'm really interested in how the various overlords got the power they got, especially Vox and Alastor, though I imagine Alastor's stuff is not going to be revealed for an extremely long time.
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Jan 21, 2024 23:16
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