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Are you telling me they only fill the carrier parking lots with half the airplanes? Why did they build the mega Gerald Ford class then?
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Jan 22, 2024 12:51
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i dunno as much about other stuff but i read a ton about airplanes and it's quite stark how much of a break in doctrine post-korea wars are late-war ww1 airplanes cost 100-300k, and could be built in a shed, resulting in thousands upon thousands of planes joining the war effort, despite there not even being an air force when the whole thing started just 4 years earlier then ww2 happened and the stakes got real high, but even as the best late war planes like a mustang or spitfire were being procured at 400-800k, they were still producing several thousand per year. then cold war happened and MIC took control of the wheel and poo poo went off the rails. by the time vietnam war was on, the stupidity was already showing. the great new imperialist toy was the F-4, which cost $20+ million. despite this, it lacked a basic gun, leading to decreased combat efficiency. it was added at the insistence of pilots, but newer models would take over a year to start appearing on the battlefield iirc in contrast, it's not known exactly how much a 60s mig-21 cost because communist mode of production and all that, but were said to be cheaper to crank out than BMP-1. a brand new 1980s J-7 (chinese mig-21 variant) apparently went for 4-6million, still 4-5 times cheaper than a 1960s F-4, lmao all the numbers above are in 2024 dollars these days, everyone with big money seems to be masturbating about expensive ~stealth~ boondoggles like su-57 and f-35, while the likely winners of future wars are cranking out millions of cheap missiles and other drones. because at the end of the day, with satellites taking over the high altitude recon role and drones taking over the low alt one, an air force is really just a very long range direct fire artillery branch
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Jan 22, 2024 12:53
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stephenthinkpad posted:Are you telling me they only fill the carrier parking lots with half the airplanes? Why did they build the mega Gerald Ford class then? Dress for the job you want
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Jan 22, 2024 12:55
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The SU-57 is defensible in so far it is pretty much just there to counter the f-35 and they are building 72 of them.
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Jan 22, 2024 13:05
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the su-57 seems to be less about stealth and more about a ludicrous degree of manoeuvrability
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Jan 22, 2024 13:53
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The SU-57 probably doesn't melt in the rain and looks like it has actual aerodynamic capabilities.
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Jan 22, 2024 14:16
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stephenthinkpad posted:Are you telling me they only fill the carrier parking lots with half the airplanes? Why did they build the mega Gerald Ford class then? In part, to have more room to fit planes. Parking space is at a premium on carriers. And it’s possible to physically put so many on a ship that you actually decrease your ability to launch missions, because getting to each plane is a game of tetris. This might not be a problem if just shipping things around, but not conducive to regular ops. Cerebral Bore posted:the su-57 seems to be less about stealth and more about a ludicrous degree of manoeuvrability It was largely about exports, but then India backed out once they got to see its performance. So might now be more of an interim tech maturation thing until the next design.
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Jan 22, 2024 15:01
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So it's all about quality vs quantity, except we never even actually have any quality at all, it's just all marketing
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Jan 22, 2024 15:03
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What about the Su-75? Are the Indians biting on that one? Or they are getting jet engines from the US and roll their own fighters? I read somewhere that there is no photo of the Su-57opening its internal missile bay. It's not known whether Su-57 actually use it.
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Jan 22, 2024 15:17
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They should invent a plane that can take off vertically
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Jan 22, 2024 15:18
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Cerebral Bore posted:the su-57 seems to be less about stealth and more about a ludicrous degree of manoeuvrability if it can maneuver without bleeding off all its energy then great, if not lol on your fancy brick.
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Jan 22, 2024 15:24
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I don’t know how much it is an interim thing when it is already a capable 5th generation fighter.
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Jan 22, 2024 15:34
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stephenthinkpad posted:What about the Su-75? Are the Indians biting on that one? Or they are getting jet engines from the US and roll their own fighters? For the SU-75 in general, it's basically a design and mockup (hasn't flown or matured yet), so the idea is try to sell it to whoever will buy it, but no country has signed up to buy it sight unseen. Rostec hoping to be able to sell it in South America, Africa, Iran, etc, but Iran also just signed up to buy about 3 squadrons of SU-35s, which are a proven design. The SU-75 was supposed to fly for the first time in 2023, but that has been delayed to some unknown date in the future. India is in a weird place where they don't want to purchase from China (obvious competitor reasons), are not satisfied with quality and pace of production of Russian equipment, but do not want to end up dependent on Western nations (especially not the US if they can help it, more amenable to France), and also India wants to develop its own domestic build capability for both national defense / economy reasons as well as avoiding political entanglements with any of the above. So for now India buying a couple squadrons of French Rafales while building out plans to build about 100 of its own domestic design, the HAL Tejas Mk2. It has foreign components like GE engines and was designed and built with assistance from outside India, but the majority of the components are made in India. India kind of goes through this dance with most new combat aircraft procurements, but they are working toward having greater and greater domestic independence to build their own aircraft.
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Jan 22, 2024 15:36
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there was a big surface navy griftcon a week ago ish if you want to see what the mic is pitching right now these videos are pretty illustrative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aal4hM2Q7UA - shove a vls on a ship sideways, put cargo containers with VLS cells on an LCS heli deck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMWI8lwtUCQ - small cheap drones!! [600 tons 16 sideways vls cells], put nsm cans on a burke cause we dont have any other real antiship missile in the pipeline https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBtESiMz30s - this is the funniest one to me, not because mine warfare shouldnt be a priority but because you can see every stage of the mic grift at play here: - the entire system is based on the lcs, two garbage ship classes that dont work and cost too much that were premised on being able to swap these mission modules around but can't so you basically end up with hyper-expensive mine sweepers that dont work - also it launches a semi-disposable drone boat with a bunch of expensive sensors, which itself is a system that isnt ready yet - the disposable drone boat launches a single-use mine hunting sub with its own cameras, sonars, and radars to actually go deactivate the mine - so anyway the whole complete system to actually get rid of mines isnt available until 2028 - btw the littoral combat ships are getting scrapped early because they suck rear end so i guess we'll just start the whole process over with ffg(x) lmao, remember the ship that doesnt have a bow-mounted sonar because the shipyard that got the contract isnt deep enough to build a ship that has one even though the design they licensed did originally meanwhile sea mines are like the cheapest and most accessible form of naval warfare The Oldest Man has issued a correction as of 18:35 on Jan 22, 2024 |
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Jan 22, 2024 18:32
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The Oldest Man posted:ffg(x) lmao, remember the ship that doesnt have a bow-mounted sonar because the shipyard that got the contract isnt deep enough to build a ship that has one even though the design they licensed did originally anyone got a link where i can learn and laugh about this
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Jan 22, 2024 19:49
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Admiral Bosch posted:anyone got a link where i can learn and laugh about this Livo posted:Regarding stupid political choices & the military consequences of these choices...
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Jan 22, 2024 19:55
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maybe we should build the oceangoing ship at a port on the ocean or at least one with a deep enough harbor but what do I know?
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Jan 22, 2024 19:58
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i haven't really been following the news on development and procurement in a long while but i've been holding fast to my gut instinct that tells me that our economic process of someone skimming off the top for themselves at every given step plus my impression that the LCS/ford carrier/f-35/zumwalt etc try to do too much at once or reinvent the wheel with apps means they will have hilarious breakdowns with no real capacity for replacement in a protracted war, can anyone confirm/deny e; asking because a coworker was insisting the f-35 is a good plane and i'm not sure how anyone can justify the cost fibblins has issued a correction as of 20:19 on Jan 22, 2024 |
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Jan 22, 2024 20:12
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fibblins posted:i haven't really been following the news on development and procurement in a long while but i've been holding fast to my gut instinct that tells me that our economic process of someone skimming off the top for themselves at every given step of a process plus my impression that the LCS/ford carrier/f-35/zumwalt etc try to do too much at once or reinvent the wheel with apps means they will have hilarious breakdowns with no real capacity for replacement in a protracted war, can anyone confirm/deny it doesn't matter how good anything america has because it doesn't have enough of anything not even ammo but definitely not enough equipment or industry china makes over half of the world's steel guns are made from steel engines boats planes shells that made up quote from lenin about how "the capitalists will sell us the rope we use to hang them with" was once again projection and they are expecting to buy their critical warfare industries back just-in-time on the eve of world war 3 and start frictionlessly dumping out superior competitive designs that, due to indescribable reasons, reasons with no hint of western chauvinism nor racism, fight more efficiently than the superior quantities of every important thing that their enemy has already built and is also building more of
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Jan 22, 2024 20:28
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this rules because it's not even a new design, it is an existing French design that the Americans took and modified to be way shittier the Navy would be getting better ships out of this deal if they had bought them from overseas
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Jan 22, 2024 20:38
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Truga posted:in contrast, it's not known exactly how much a 60s mig-21 cost because communist mode of production and all that, but were said to be cheaper to crank out than BMP-1. a brand new 1980s J-7 (chinese mig-21 variant) apparently went for 4-6million, still 4-5 times cheaper than a 1960s F-4, lmao The J-7 is the cheaper fighter equivalent of the 737. CAC was still manufacturing it through the early 2010s, after a bunch of countries ordered upgraded versions to replace their original 1980s vintage J-7s before the production line closed for good. CAC then transferred the design to GAIC, which developed a further upgraded version called the FTC-2000 with diverter-less intakes (!) and BVR capabilities (!!) for just $8.5m each.
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Jan 22, 2024 20:40
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FF(x) program: next generation posting AI
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Jan 22, 2024 20:49
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https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/21/us/politics/us-militias-tipping-point.html Lol on background Biden admin says one dead troop and they bomb Iran
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Jan 22, 2024 20:52
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Imagine the impact of AI content generation on the military's power point slides.
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Jan 22, 2024 20:52
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The Oldest Man posted:https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/21/us/politics/us-militias-tipping-point.html Gonna be a lot of helicopter and Osprey accidents in the near future.
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Jan 22, 2024 20:56
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The Oldest Man posted:https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/21/us/politics/us-militias-tipping-point.html horseshit lol. they'll just sanction more iranians
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Jan 22, 2024 21:00
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What do you mean gonna?
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Jan 22, 2024 21:00
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China isn't completely immune to their MIC's technobabble. But their MIC being state-owned helps a ton to keep the crazy wasteful spending in check, as well as the fact that they don't have lobbists in the US sense. https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3249048/chinese-scientists-bring-us-navys-dream-bullet-life?module=top_story&pgtype=homepage https://archive.is/ki9Dp quote:Chinese scientists bring US Navy’s ‘dream bullet’ to life
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Jan 22, 2024 21:09
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bedpan posted:maybe we should build the oceangoing ship at a port on the ocean or at least one with a deep enough harbor but what do I know? sorry but the Representative for Marinette, WI sits on the Armed Services Committee
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Jan 22, 2024 21:12
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The US barely even has the numbers deployed there to do anything to Yemen. It's not going to launch a loving ground invasion on Iran lmao.
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Jan 22, 2024 21:21
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building a bigass ocean going warship on a lake is incredibly funny. it's a nice pithy way to summarize how dysfunctional the USA is.
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Jan 22, 2024 21:23
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Boat Stuck posted:China isn't completely immune to their MIC's technobabble. But their MIC being state-owned helps a ton to keep the crazy wasteful spending in check, as well as the fact that they don't have lobbists in the US sense. IIRC the PLA ordered some ultra-lightweight 12.7mm MGs after hearing about Russian boasting of their own. Turns out they missed something critical like the tripod, but they still achieved it. Probably somehow cheaper than a European 155mm artillery shell these days.
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Jan 22, 2024 21:26
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bedpan posted:maybe we should build the oceangoing ship at a port on the ocean or at least one with a deep enough harbor but what do I know? Salt water is a bitch, and dredging often can solve these issues. This one seems like a total lack of anything other than corruption.
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Jan 22, 2024 21:30
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Boat Stuck posted:China isn't completely immune to their MIC's technobabble. But their MIC being state-owned helps a ton to keep the crazy wasteful spending in check, as well as the fact that they don't have lobbists in the US sense. It's not MIC technobubble if they are not trying to charge 1.5 million for each shell. Also that article oddly has a lot of numbers in it, you can tell it was put out by the nerds (scientists.)
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Jan 22, 2024 21:37
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The Oldest Man posted:https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/21/us/politics/us-militias-tipping-point.html shitload of guys about to be slipping off ladders into the ocean in the coming months
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Jan 22, 2024 21:40
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BillsPhoenix posted:Salt water is a bitch, and dredging often can solve these issues. seawaymax is 26.5 ft draft and the FREMM french variant is 24 ft 11 in draft and the italian variant is 28 ft 7 in. so the french FREMM could fit but the Italian ones couldn't. so it seems like the issue is more the shipbuilders rather than the seaway itself
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Jan 22, 2024 21:42
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BillsPhoenix posted:Salt water is a bitch, and dredging often can solve these issues.  Trabisnikof posted:seawaymax is 26.5 ft draft and the FREMM french variant is 24 ft 11 in draft and the italian variant is 28 ft 7 in. so the french FREMM could fit but the Italian ones couldn't. incredible lmao if this isn't even a seaway draft issue but strictly the builder not having a deep enough harbor for the work.
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Jan 22, 2024 21:44
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bring back monitors but make them oceangoing. zero freeboard = zero fucks given
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Jan 22, 2024 21:45
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bedpan posted:bring back monitors but make them oceangoing. zero freeboard = zero fucks given Best you'll get is some narco-sub drones.
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Jan 22, 2024 21:49
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nomad2020 posted:Best you'll get is some narco-sub drones. I'd be okay with this if they had the rotating cannon thing in the middle of the ship.
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Jan 22, 2024 21:50
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