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Or pull out funding to Israel, or move those aircraft carriers, or not trying to stop the shipping blockade
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Jan 22, 2024 19:23
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SgtSteel91 posted:Yes, I know that not voting Dem or Voting third party is one less vote to keep Trump out of office… but come on there needs to be some accountability or a way to show dissatisfaction with the administration’s handling of Israel in addition to boycotts of McDonalds, Starbucks, protests, etc that’s going to lead to actual changes or do some real damage to Dems so they get their act together It's going to be really hard to use the general election to meaningfully hold the Democrats to account for their various terrible-but-not-fatal shortcomings when, in our first-past-the-post system, the alternative to them continuing to win the general election is a sheer descent into fascism. As depressing as this will be to hear, and I am sure you have heard it before, the true battle for the direction of the party is in the primaries. Not voting for Biden when the alternative is Trump is not going to send the "don't be an rear end in a top hat" message that you want to send. And yes, we don't get a real primary this time because Biden is the incumbent... but that's again because the party is hanging on by the skin of its teeth against a sheer descent into fascism.
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Jan 22, 2024 19:25
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SgtSteel91 posted:Or pull out funding to Israel, or move those aircraft carriers, or not trying to stop the shipping blockade Yeah even with no support from congress Biden still controls the armed forces and can move ships around. Just threatening to withdraw forces would be pressure on Israel.
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Jan 22, 2024 19:25
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SgtSteel91 posted:but come on there needs to be some accountability or a way to show dissatisfaction with the administration’s handling of Israel There is a primary in four years. I'm sure Israel will be a major topic. Punish the pro-Israel wing then. Hell go do a protest vote for Bernie Sanders in your 2024 primary. Stop telling people to enable Trump because all you're going to do is make sensible people angry. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 22, 2024 19:25
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Your vote is your decision.
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Jan 22, 2024 19:26
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Misunderstood posted:Joe Biden cannot tell Israel what to do. quote:What are you basing him being "pro-genocide" on? Surely there are explanations for him officially supporting Israel that fit Occam's razor a little better than that?
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Jan 22, 2024 19:26
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FlamingLiberal posted:Which would include what, bypassing Congress to give them more bombs to continue to kill children? Your overall point is correct, but just for clarification: - The bypass is skipping a mandatory review period for all sales to foreign countries. Congress already approved the sales and this is just expediting the process. - The parts of the sales that were expedited were primarily tank shells, components for the Iron Dome system, and various electronics gear. The bombs for planes that are doing most of the damage were either sold to Israel years ago or manufactured in Israel. FlamingLiberal posted:The entire idea that Biden can’t do anything about this situation is asinine. Israel is our client state, they would not be able to do most of what they have done in the last 25 years without our support and assistance. We pay for their military. We pay for the Iron Dome. We give them political support on the international stage by stopping any kind of effort at the UN to force them to come to the table on peace deals. I could go on for hours. Agreed that people claiming Biden can't do anything are being unrealistic. How effective it would be is up for debate, but also for clarification: We are "funding" about 11% of Israel's 2024 military budget and most of that is Iron Dome funding. We don't pay for the vast majority of the Israeli military. Most of the non-Iron Dome "funding" is arms sales, which is just allowing them to buy equipment, rather than actually funding them. Just important to have specifics and context when assessing how much we are supporting them and what the impact would be for changes. It's not really accurate to claim we are funding the Israeli military. ~93.5% of the non-Iron Dome budget is funded by the Israeli tax-payers (and some of that ~6.5% are arms sales that technically count as aid in legislative accounting). Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jan 22, 2024 |
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Jan 22, 2024 19:27
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mawarannahr posted:Thank you for your responses. I have learned a few more things additionally (though on a web search it has been relatively hard to find commentary that isn't from an explicitly right-wing perspective) about some of its issues, e.g., circumventions, and the increased difficulty of imposing price controls on imported goods and materials. So I'm bad at providing links and evidence because I phone post almost exclusively, but the two tidbits I'll add: 1) Price controls sound good in theory but can't solve long term issues, and when they're applied to long-term issues they only delay the problem and then create a host of secondary effects. Inflation is in many ways self reinforcing (one of the largest factors in future inflation is expectations of inflation, as companies price it in to contracts) and the only consistent way to kill inflation is to induce a recession. 2) The best proven response to price collusion is antitrust and competition regulation, breaking large companies up and ensuring that market capitalization remains widely distributed. This increases the odds that you'll see a firm choose to defect and undercut the others for their own advantage, forcing the competition to follow suit. The Biden Administration has been very good at this but they're working against decades of market consolidation.
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Jan 22, 2024 19:31
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Eletriarnation posted:It's going to be really hard to use the general election to meaningfully hold the Democrats to account for their various terrible-but-not-fatal shortcomings when, in our first-past-the-post system, the alternative to them continuing to win the general election is a sheer descent into fascism. Yeah. The accountability stops being accountability and turns into self-destruction if you let the GOP completely lock down their hold on power by having all 3 branches of government. As 2020, the current House's hijinks and the current presidential primary shows, the GOP is totally willing to ignore popular will when it doesn't say what its rank and file want to say. It's a crummy situation. I sympathize a lot with people who want to check out, but I really don't think we will ever have the option.
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Jan 22, 2024 19:39
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sincere question: what's Marianne Williamson's stance on israel/palestine, I've heard that Dean Phillips is also zionist. and yes I'm asking this question knowing that she's abusive towards her staff behind the scenes and has no government track record so we can't know how sincere her message is. I just want to know how well and truly hosed on this issue the democrat primary lineup is.
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Jan 22, 2024 19:45
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Ninja edit: probably better not to touch I/P any more than necessary. As far as specific Biden-related policy goes though, the admin is pushing for an end of fighting, release of hostages, and a Palestinian state: https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-egypt-qatar-said-pushing-plan-to-end-war-free-hostages-form-palestinian-state/ It makes the hard-liners very mad but a slim majority of Israelis seem to support it: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...g-entry-3206993 I can get behind miracle-based foreign policy. We need one in Ukraine too. vvvv mobby_6kl fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Jan 22, 2024 |
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Jan 22, 2024 19:46
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Digamma-F-Wau posted:sincere question: what's Marianne Williamson's stance on israel/palestine, Praying for a miracle. quote:While I understand Israel’s fury in reaction to last week’s terrorist attacks - I share it, actually - I cannot see where invading Gaza is going to do more than increase the cycle of hatred that already plagues the region. So many innocent citizens of Gaza, as well as Israelis, stand to lose their lives - and the question hangs in the air: What will this solve? What will come afterwards? How will this not intensify the horror?
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Jan 22, 2024 19:48
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Digamma-F-Wau posted:sincere question: what's Marianne Williamson's stance on israel/palestine, I've heard that Dean Phillips is also zionist. and yes I'm asking this question knowing that she's abusive towards her staff behind the scenes and has no government track record so we can't know how sincere her message is. I just want to know how well and truly hosed on this issue the democrat primary lineup is. Had a reputation for being pretty pro Israel, has become a little more vocal against the Israeli campaign in Gaza relative to other candidates I guess https://twitter.com/marwilliamson/status/1740929228252885409 https://twitter.com/marwilliamson/status/1748323144354451961
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Jan 22, 2024 19:49
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Misunderstood posted:There does, and I would argue there is, but it's not during general elections against the Republicans. That's just not what they're for. I’m not trying to tell anyone to enable Trump, I’m just kind of venting about how Biden is handling I/P and squaring a circle on what to do now that it’s election season. And I can’t fathom what I/P is going to look like 4 years later. I’m certain it’ll be worse if Trump was president but I also hate how it’s being handled now. And I hate the thought that voting Biden in this election is tactile support of how the administration is running things; because I’m not happy how it’s running things but I also know a Trump admin would be worse SgtSteel91 fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Jan 22, 2024 |
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Jan 22, 2024 19:51
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Digamma-F-Wau posted:sincere question: what's Marianne Williamson's stance on israel/palestine like when you put aside that she's the crystal vibes moron about this and everything i was impressed with how hard she initially worked at bothsiding it like "i stand with israel! i stand with palestine!" but also making sure not to do it in a way which suggests an independent palestinian entity or state, so it was more like "I stand with israel! i stand with ... the palestinian people!" so you could pretty well figure how deep into cowardly, israel lobby satisfying workshopping her whole stance and identity is that is mostly a comment on marianne herself as a political entity
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Jan 22, 2024 20:00
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Tim Scott has apparently had a secret girlfriend he started dating back in May of last year. She is allegedly the first person he has ever dated. They are getting married after dating for 8 months. Now, only one of South Carolina's Senators is a lifelong bachelor who has had rumors about their sexuality following them for decades. Some people are floating a conspiracy theory that this is partially to make himself look better for a Trump VP pick by dispelling the gay rumors and being a family man. Seems more likely that he is actually a weird fundie who didn't (officially/publicly) date anyone for his entire life and then married his first girlfriend. Either way, the whole situation is still pretty funny and strange. https://twitter.com/votetimscott/status/1749265172789641363
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Jan 22, 2024 20:04
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Tim Scott has apparently had a secret girlfriend he started dating back in May of last year. She is allegedly the first person he has ever dated. They are getting married after dating for 8 months. Gearing up for 2028 already I see. Desantis is term limited right, so he's out of political office starting Jan. 2027. I assume he's going to try again in '28, but what does he do to stay in the news?
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Jan 22, 2024 20:05
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Telling people to wait for a primary to express their dissatisfaction is puzzling, since the DNC has expressly argued in court they are under no obligation to pick a candidate from the primary fairly:quote:DNC attorneys claim Article V, Section 4 of the DNC Charter—stipulating that the DNC chair and their staff must ensure neutrality in the Democratic presidential primaries—is “a discretionary rule that it didn’t need to adopt to begin with.” Based on this assumption, DNC attorneys assert that the court cannot interpret, claim, or rule on anything associated with whether the DNC remains neutral in their presidential primaries.
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Jan 22, 2024 20:08
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ex post facho posted:Telling people to wait for a primary to express their dissatisfaction is puzzling, since the DNC has expressly argued in court they are under no obligation to pick a candidate from the primary fairly: That is objectively legally correct. That is why the argument you are partially quoting is them arguing in court that they already adopted a rule to choose the candidate via primary and maintain neutrality because there isn't a legal mechanism that requires it. The modern concept of a primary didn't even exist until 1972 and they literally did just pick nominees randomly via backroom for most of history.
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Jan 22, 2024 20:12
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It seems like the nature of legal argument that you try to put forth every point that you have in your favor, even if it's based on a hypothetical like "we decided not to make someone our nominee after they won the primary free and clear". I don't think that would be very likely to actually happen for a few different reasons. In any case, voting for a candidate in the primaries who is actually left of the alternative will be a more effective way of sending the message that you want leftist policy than staying home because a liberal is up against a fascist. Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Jan 22, 2024 |
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Jan 22, 2024 20:13
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Staluigi posted:like when you put aside that she's the crystal vibes moron about this and everything i was impressed with how hard she initially worked at bothsiding it like "i stand with israel! i stand with palestine!" but also making sure not to do it in a way which suggests an independent palestinian entity or state, so it was more like "I stand with israel! i stand with ... the palestinian people!" so you could pretty well figure how deep into cowardly, israel lobby satisfying workshopping her whole stance and identity is Marianne Williamson argued for staying longer in Afghanistan too. You never quite know what you'll get from her. https://twitter.com/marwilliamson/status/1162724447888916480?lang=en
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Jan 22, 2024 20:14
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The party is under no obligation to be impartial and is obviously not impartial during its primary process. How do you square that with telling people to express their dissatisfaction with the direction of the party during a primary? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 22, 2024 20:18
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ex post facho posted:The party is under no obligation to be impartial and is obviously not impartial during its primary process. How do you square that with telling people to express their dissatisfaction with the direction of the party during a primary? The dissatisfaction will be noted.
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Jan 22, 2024 20:19
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ex post facho posted:Telling people to wait for a primary to express their dissatisfaction is puzzling, since the DNC has expressly argued in court they are under no obligation to pick a candidate from the primary fairly: That doesn't stop anyone from voting for another candidate (likely one that will not win, it you're voting for dissatisfaction reasons), so I don't think this lawsuit defense from 2016 is pertinent. Efb ummel fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Jan 22, 2024 |
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Jan 22, 2024 20:21
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ex post facho posted:The party is under no obligation to be impartial and is obviously not impartial during its primary process. How do you square that with telling people to express their dissatisfaction with the direction of the party during a primary? Uh... I didn't design the system, man. The world isn't perfect. Make a billion dollars and then you can have a guarantee that the party will listen to you, but as a random schmo this is the best suggestion I have. Again, you aren't going to get a better result from making the Democrats lose in the general which was all I was saying. To be a little bit less flippant, I really don't think that the party leadership would freeze out a candidate who won the primary free and clear. It would be a tremendous self-inflicted wound.
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Jan 22, 2024 20:22
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ex post facho posted:The party is under no obligation to be impartial and is obviously not impartial during its primary process. How do you square that with telling people to express their dissatisfaction with the direction of the party during a primary? Those were the attorney's words in a motion to dismiss. He argued that there is no merit to the lawsuit because there is no constitutional provision governing how nominees are chosen (objectively true) and therefore there isn't grounds for a lawsuit. Additionally, even if there were, they have provisions requiring neutrality and selecting the nominee based on the winner of the primary in the party by-laws, so even if there was jurisdiction, then there were no damages. The lawsuit was eventually dismissed on those grounds. They aren't arguing that they are intending to rig the primary or that it was rigged.
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Jan 22, 2024 20:23
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Four years seems like an awfully long time to be able to take a political action that has a meaningful impact on a genocide that's going on right now. Calling and writing letters has not yielded anything except form letters or canned responses, so waiting four years for them to continue co-signing this in my name if I vote for Biden seems like a moral stain I'm not gonna want to look back on. We all look back at these massive moments where it was obvious that something was going grieviously wrong, but the Good People seemed to just let it happen: "Why didn't the good Germans resist?" "Why didn't the good Americans stop the slaughter of the natives?" "Why didn't the good Americans collectively stop pro-slavery terrorism in Kansas?" "Why didn't the good Americans put their bodies in front of the gates of Manzanar?" My bet on the future is that some children or grandchildren will be asking the same questions about what's going on now in Palestine. And my answer to those future generations is that the "good" people in question were the masses, and that public morality had determined it necessary to kill those people, to segregate those people, to keep those people as an underclass. Public morality will tell you all day every week and twice on Sunday that you gotta do the thing your heart is telling you is wrong, until you no longer trust your heart. So my bet is against that, is saying I don't want to have to explain why I went along with what I feel is patently, obviously evil bullshit, and that somebody asking for my vote is asking me to sign my name to that evil. I'm gonna vote PSL if they're on the ballot, or write in Hillary if they're not. I'm in Iowa, so calm down already, my vote is basically not meaningful above the local level.
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Jan 22, 2024 20:30
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I'm not talking about overriding a popularly-selected candidate once the primaries are concluded, I'm referring to the degree of support the candidate(s) do or don't receive from the party based on their ideological alignment with the party elites before and during the primaries. For example, I don't believe a hypothetical 2028 Ilhan Omar candidacy would in any way receive the same sort of material or soft support from the DNC as a hypothetical 2028 Pete Buttigieg candidacy. That's the sort of influence that I think a sentiment like "just express your dissatisfaction with the party during the primary" overlooks.
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Jan 22, 2024 20:36
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Right, and I agree that's a valid complaint but I don't really have a compelling alternative for you because our system kinda sucks. Sorry, you will have to get more grassroots support behind a candidate who lacks institutional support. That's how it is.
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Jan 22, 2024 20:37
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Tim Scott has apparently had a secret girlfriend he started dating back in May of last year. She is allegedly the first person he has ever dated. They are getting married after dating for 8 months. Woah now, you can't rule out Scott being a E/N goon as well
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Jan 22, 2024 20:40
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ex post facho posted:I'm not talking about overriding a popularly-selected candidate once the primaries are concluded, I'm referring to the degree of support the candidate(s) do or don't receive from the party based on their ideological alignment with the party elites before and during the primaries. That's politics, dawg. They can't give any financial support, but people can endorse or tell people to vote however they want. If your issue is that you can't get a plurality of people in your own party to support you because people are more willing to listen to a DNC Vice-Executive's endorsement over you, then you have larger problems for your political movement. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't vote for your preferred candidate in the primary or that vote results have no impact on who the nominee is.
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Jan 22, 2024 20:42
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selec posted:Four years seems like an awfully long time to be able to take a political action that has a meaningful impact on a genocide that's going on right now. Calling and writing letters has not yielded anything except form letters or canned responses, so waiting four years for them to continue co-signing this in my name if I vote for Biden seems like a moral stain I'm not gonna want to look back on. I feel like a coward saying this but I've turned around compared to my previous posts on the topic and no longer care about people not voting Biden (I won't either but I have the "privilege" of living in a state that Biden's gonna win anyways) but mainly because I feel like Biden has a decent chance at winning anyways and the hosed up reality is that he's more likely to lose by doing the right thing with this issue (not that he plans on doing the right thing anyways)
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Jan 22, 2024 20:44
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Tim Scott has apparently had a secret girlfriend he started dating back in May of last year. She is allegedly the first person he has ever dated. They are getting married after dating for 8 months. whats funny is he is never gonna be trumps running mate. trumps gonna pick a useful idiot crazy. and while scott might be some of those thing, he isnt enough of them. i think trump wants a woman too. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Jan 22, 2024 |
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Jan 22, 2024 20:47
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selec posted:I'm gonna vote PSL if they're on the ballot, or write in Hillary if they're not. I'm in Iowa, so calm down already, my vote is basically not meaningful above the local level. I've never heard of the PSL, but Wikipedia seems to suggest they're pro-invasion of Ukraine (or at least not against it, but supported the annexation of Crimea), deny Tienanmen Square occurred, and deny that there was the use of chemical weapons in Syria. I think I'd find someone else if I wanted an alternative, but you have to trust your heart.
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Jan 22, 2024 20:48
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SgtSteel91 posted:Yes, I know that not voting Dem or Voting third party is one less vote to keep Trump out of office… but come on there needs to be some accountability or a way to show dissatisfaction with the administration’s handling of Israel in addition to boycotts of McDonalds, Starbucks, protests, etc that’s going to lead to actual changes or do some real damage to Dems so they get their act together Vote in pro-Palestine candidates, not only to Congress but in state and local government as well. The problem is that the pro-Palestine movement is a tiny political fringe compared to the pro-Israel movement, and has shown very little ability to win elections. I'm glad that people are finally starting to seriously care about the genocide of Palestinians, but the entire US political landscape has been enthusiastically supporting that genocide for several straight decades, so its kind of surreal to see so many people so shocked that a US president isn't reversing four decades of popular bipartisan policy at a whim.
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Jan 22, 2024 20:48
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:That's politics, dawg. They can't give any financial support, but people can endorse or tell people to vote however they want. I mean, I get it, the Democrats stopped representing my views a long time ago, but right here you're saying "the party decides", "because people are willing to listen to a DNC Vice-Executive's endorsement over you". The type of movement you're describing isn't possible below the elite level of the party, in my view, and your statement is in fact one of the reasons why. If I can't express my opinions effectively from the bottom up (via the primary), then my only other choice is the top down via the general. ex post facho fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Jan 22, 2024 |
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Jan 22, 2024 20:48
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ex post facho posted:The party is under no obligation to be impartial and is obviously not impartial during its primary process. How do you square that with telling people to express their dissatisfaction with the direction of the party during a primary? Trump had a primary that was overtly biased against him and the people voting for him adequately expressed their disatisfaction with material results. Many other candidates, even ones who lost their primaries, had elements they pushed become important parts or the party as a whole moving forward - the bias is unpleasant but also not the insurmountable obstacle you seem to want it to be - and even if it was, it wouldnt make staying home in the general magically more effective. How exactly do you imagine your opinions are better expressed during the general or in what capacity that becomes top down? None of what youre saying makes much sense to me
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Jan 22, 2024 20:49
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selec posted:So my bet is against that, is saying I don't want to have to explain why I went along with what I feel is patently, obviously evil bullshit, and that somebody asking for my vote is asking me to sign my name to that evil. So to show your opposition to Biden's stance, you're going to write in Hillary Clinton - close personal friend of noted mass murderer Henry Kissinger, notably opposed to a cease fire, and who has never given any indication of significant difference from Biden's stance on Palestine as far as I know? Honestly, Hillary seems like the worst choice of a name to write in, you could at least pick someone who's not friends with mass murderers and doesn't support Biden on this issue (Sanders as the example that comes first to mind). I get being opposed to what Israel is doing in Palestine, but the 'left opposition to Biden' crowd just makes no sense to me when their idea of opposition is to indicate support for people who are as bad or worse on the issue than Biden is by voting for people like Trump or Hillary Clinton. Pantaloon Pontiff fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Jan 22, 2024 |
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Jan 22, 2024 20:51
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GlyphGryph posted:How exactly do you imagine your opinions are better expressed during the general or in what capacity that becomes top down? None of what youre saying makes much sense to me They're not since I don't live in one of ~6 states that will decide the election. The margins will be lower for Democrats in my state when I vote for PSL instead, and if that's the only power I have to make change in the party aside from organizing for a hypothetical candidate in a weighted primary years later, then I'm going to use it.
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Jan 22, 2024 20:57
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Trump is going to nominate Ivanka as his VP.
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