Israel/Palestine

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(Thread IKs: Main Paineframe, Irony Be My Shield, punishedkissinger)

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Neurolimal posted:

The existence of guns doesn't make civilians legitimate targets, but if someone picks up a gun and starts shooting at you then they are 100% a combatant.

Are you talking about the Be'eri residents or the Hamas soldiers? I find it hard to call Be'eri residents who are trying to defend their kibbutz as combatants, since the Hamas soldiers were the ones who fired the first shots when they murdered Bitton and his 2 friends.

# ? Jan 22, 2024 19:17

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# ? May 25, 2024 11:15

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

Kalit posted:

I find it hard to call Be'eri residents who are trying to defend their kibbutz as combatants,

They're literally engaged in combat with an opposing force. Assembling a volkssturm is generally a bad thing to encourage, you don't want to blur the line between civilian and soldier if you can help it. The civilian is going to suck at fighting anyways so all you're doing is endangering them.

It's the same logic behind it being a war crime to execute unarmed soldiers; if the person is an active threat then they can be targeted. It's come up before with regards to targeting hospitals; "weapons were here" or "soldiers were here" isn't sufficient, "they are actively attacking us from the hospital" would be.

# ? Jan 22, 2024 19:29

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Neurolimal posted:

They're literally engaged in combat with an opposing force. Assembling a volkssturm is generally a bad thing to encourage, you don't want to blur the line between civilian and soldier if you can help it. The civilian is going to suck at fighting anyways so all you're doing is endangering them.

It's the same logic behind it being a war crime to execute unarmed soldiers; if the person is an active threat then they can be targeted. It's come up before with regards to targeting hospitals; "weapons were here" or "soldiers were here" isn't sufficient, "they are actively attacking us from the hospital" would be.

Ahhh, I think I'm confused by your vocabulary, as I'm re-reading your previous post of

Neurolimal posted:

The existence of guns doesn't make civilians legitimate targets, but if someone picks up a gun and starts shooting at you then they are 100% a combatant.

I was interpreting your word "combatant" as someone who is an offensive combatant, and I'm unsure if that's what you meant. Since, as we know, the kibbutz residents were acting defensively against the Hamas attack when they murdered the civilians in the car at the gate while entering.

So, let me ask you a clarifying question. Is anyone engaged in combat, regardless if it's offensive or defensive, a combatant? If so, in your opinion, does the act of going from civilian to a combatant make someone a "legitimate target"?

# ? Jan 22, 2024 19:46

Marenghi: Oct 16, 2008; Don't trust the liberals,
they will betray you

Kalit posted:

Are you talking about the Be'eri residents or the Hamas soldiers? I find it hard to call Be'eri residents who are trying to defend their kibbutz as combatants, since the Hamas soldiers were the ones who fired the first shots when they murdered Bitton and his 2 friends.

It's hard to make out the timeline of events because the New Yorker and NYT article cover the same events differently and it makes it difficult to figure out the initial timeline of the attack.

Per the New Yorker

https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/the-devastation-of-beeri posted:

At 6:31 A.M. on Saturday, October 7th, Gal Cohen�s morning run was interrupted by a flurry of rockets. Cohen, who lived in Kibbutz Be�eri, barely three miles from Israel�s border with Gaza, was used to the projectiles, and to the sound of their midair interceptions by Israel�s missile-defense system. But this barrage was unusually loud and intense. His dog, running beside him, went wild. Cohen, who is fifty-eight, bald, and soft-spoken, returned home and went to pick up his daughter�who also lived in the kibbutz and who, his wife had told him, was frantic. On the way over, Cohen spotted two men on a motorcycle, carrying rifles. They wore camouflage uniforms and �those green Hamas bandannas,� Cohen told me this week. Ducking his head out of view, he spoke to the kibbutz�s chief security officer, Arik Kraunik, by phone to report what he�d seen.

After talking to Cohen, Kraunik drove toward the kibbutz�s front gate to assess the situation. Armed with a rifle and a pistol, Kraunik managed to kill seven armed men, according to his son, but while he called for backup more militants arrived and fatally shot him. At 7:11, a group of armed men ran through the front gate, which had swung open. Other gunmen soon followed on motorbikes.

Kraunik is believed to be the first civilian casualty of Be�eri

6:31 the rockets started firing. A resident notices two members of Hamas beyond the border and informs security. This article says the gate opened at 7:11, after Hamas had already engaged with the Kibbutz security forces.

From the NYT article

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/12/22/world/europe/beeri-massacre.html posted:

Hamas gunmen approaching the kibbutz gate.

Note: The surveillance camera clock is set one hour behind.

... Less than 20 seconds later, Benayahu Bitton, 22, approached Be�eri from the main road in a dark gray sedan, along with two friends.

The three had spent the night at a rave held roughly two miles away. Minutes earlier, Hamas gunmen had attacked the rave, and they fled.

Now, they were at the threshold of the nearest refuge they could find: the yellow gate of the Be�eri kibbutz.

The gate began to open.

Unseen by Mr. Bitton, the second gunman sneaked out from behind a tree, weapon raised, and fired into the car.

Mr. Bitton twisted in his seat, twitched, before slumping motionless.

The surveillance clock displayed 5:55 which would be 6:55 real time when two member of Hamas approached the gatehouse. The gate opened for Bitton who was then shot by Hamas. This would indicate fighting had already started prior to his car. Without knowing the exact timeline it's impossible to say if fighting had broken out prior to the first civilian death or after.

Kalit posted:

So, let me ask you a clarifying question. Is anyone engaged in combat, regardless if it's offensive or defensive, a combatant? If so, in your opinion, does the act of going from civilian to a combatant make someone a "legitimate target"?

Question not directed at me but I'll add my two cents. Israel's policy of arming settlers on the border of Gaza intentionally blurs the distinction between civilian and combatant. Had they not been armed the violence of Oct 7th in settlements may not have happened.

Marenghi fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Jan 22, 2024

# ? Jan 22, 2024 19:51

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

Kalit posted:

So, let me ask you a clarifying question. Is anyone engaged in combat, regardless if it's offensive or defensive, a combatant? If so, in your opinion, does the act of going from civilian to a combatant make someone a "legitimate target"?

I'm not really talking offensive/defensive justification, I think it's a simple case of "is it wrong if this person gets targeted", in a vacuum absent motivations. If someone is firing a gun at a soldier, then the soldier is warranted to fire back (as far as 'is this a war crime' goes.) Proportionate response is still a factor (you can't shoot a kid who throws a rock at you, you cant bomb a hospital if someone fired a rocket 2 miles from it), but otherwise retaining civilian protections would actively reward assembling civilian border militias.

If the soldier fires at an unarmed person, then the unarmed person recovers a gun to fight back, then the issue would be muddier, but I personally doubt that was the average case.

# ? Jan 22, 2024 20:13

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Marenghi posted:

It's hard to make out the timeline of events because the New Yorker and NYT article cover the same events differently and it makes it difficult to figure out the initial timeline of the attack.

Per the New Yorker

6:31 the rockets started firing. A resident notices two members of Hamas beyond the border and informs security. This article says the gate opened at 7:11, after Hamas had already engaged with the Kibbutz security forces.

From the NYT article

The surveillance clock displayed 5:55 which would be 6:55 real time when two member of Hamas approached the gatehouse. The gate opened for Bitton who was then shot by Hamas. This would indicate fighting had already started prior to his car. Without knowing the exact timeline it's impossible to say if fighting had broken out prior to the first civilian death or after.

All right, I found a clear timeline that includes both events:
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/israel-palestinians-kibbutz-attack/

quote:

Be�eri is breached

6:29 a.m.
It was 6:29 a.m. on Oct. 7, 12 hours before the Klemensons arrived at Be�eri, when heavy blasts woke many on the kibbutz. They were Israeli missiles intercepting a barrage of rockets fired from Gaza. At 6:34, the kibbutz alarm sounded, signaling another rocket attack from Gaza. The alarm � an automated message saying zeva adom, Hebrew for �color red� � sent residents scurrying in their pyjamas into their safe rooms.

They�d done this so often they weren�t initially perturbed. But this barrage from Gaza sounded heavier than usual.

6:55 a.m.
Gal Cohen, a manager of the kibbutz�s packaging business, was out for a jog with his dog when the alarm sounded. He said he was outside again at 6:55 a.m. � off to pick up one of the golf buggies that kibbutz residents use to get around. It was then he spotted something that startled him: two men on a motorbike wearing green Hamas head scarves. They had rifles and were on the road outside the kibbutz.

Cohen immediately called Racheli Benakot. She was the woman in charge of alerting fellow kibbutz members and authorities in the event of an emergency.

At just that moment, two young men with thin beards were captured on CCTV at the entrance to Be�eri. They were dressed like soldiers: desert-green camouflage fatigues, bullet-proof vests, fingers on the triggers of their AK47s. They crept up to the main gate and looked around. No one was there. One of them smashed the window of the empty guard room at the entrance and climbed inside.

A few seconds later, the footage shows a blue-gray Mazda sedan pulling up at the front entrance to the kibbutz, which is surrounded by protective fencing. In the car were two young men, who have not yet been publicly identified. The gates started to roll open.

One of the two gunmen burst out from behind a tree, aimed his rifle at the car and opened fire. Bullets pierced the car windows. The car rolled forward, coming to a halt against the half-open gate.

The gunmen were now inside the kibbutz.

Alerted by Gal Cohen�s call, emergency-alert officer Benakot, who in normal times managed health services at the kibbutz, called her brother, Arik Kraunik. He was the leader of the kibbutz security team, or kitat konenut in Hebrew, literally meaning �readiness unit.� The team�s job, in case of an emergency, was to hold the fort until the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) arrived.

There were bases housing two IDF brigades located north and south of the kibbutz, both within 15 minutes drive. So, Benakot said, she didn�t expect to be waiting long for the soldiers to arrive. Still, she sent her brother to investigate.

As Kraunik headed to the gate, Racheli alerted the security team, comprising about 15 people. Members of the team headed towards the concert hall on the kibbutz to meet up. Only some were armed. Hidden nearby was an armory with M16 rifles and ammunition.

But the key was with Kraunik.

7:00 a.m.
Meanwhile, another member of Benakot�s emergency-alert squad sent a message to all residents on the kibbutz smartphone app: �Suspected infiltration,� it read.

The CCTV footage showed more gunmen entering the kibbutz. Kraunik, meanwhile, had arrived in a car at a spot about 100 meters from the front gate, not far from the printing press that is a key source of income for the kibbutz.

Moments later, Benakot said, Kraunik was gunned down there.

By now, scattered gunfire could be heard across the kibbutz. Yoel, a security team member who asked that only his first name be used for privacy reasons, said he was armed only with a pistol and 12 bullets. His M16 rifle was locked inside the armory. And Kraunik, the only one in the team with a key, was dead.

At that point, Yoel and other security-team members had no idea how many intruders had penetrated the kibbutz. They ran across a grass patch to an area where they could hear gunfire. There they found Gil Boyum, a fellow team member, badly hurt. He�d been shot and hit in the head with a rifle butt.

So, unless there's something wrong with this detailed timeline, the Hamas soldiers definitely killed those civilians before Kraunik/anyone else confronted them. So, even giving the extreme benefit of the doubt of all the other civilians they murdered, we can see in this specific instance that Hamas claiming they didn't target any civilians is 100% a lie.

Marenghi posted:

Question not directed at me but I'll add my two cents. Israel's policy of arming settlers on the border of Gaza intentionally blurs the distinction between civilian and combatant. Had they not been armed the violence of Oct 7th in settlements may not have happened.

Be'eri is not a settlement, it's a kibbutz that has existed since the Israel became a state. Unless, of course, you count all of Israelis as settlers. Which is far from the common definition that is widely used. On top of that, we see that Hamas soldiers were the first ones to open fire. And they did it on unarmed civilians before anyone else had arrived.

Kalit fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Jan 22, 2024

# ? Jan 22, 2024 20:21

Marenghi: Oct 16, 2008; Don't trust the liberals,
they will betray you

Kalit posted:

All right, I found a clear timeline that includes both events:
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/israel-palestinians-kibbutz-attack/

So, unless there's something wrong with this detailed timeline, the Hamas soldiers definitely killed those civilians before Kraunik/anyone else confronted them. So, even giving the extreme benefit of the doubt of all the other civilians they murdered, we can see in this specific instance that Hamas claiming they didn't target any civilians is 100% a lie.

It's more detailed but it directly contradicts the New Yorker article which stated the gate opened at 7:11 which was after they claim Kraunik died. The gate opened when the civilian car was shot which would mean it happened after the initial conflict in which the head of security died.

It also seems to contradict this later article by the times.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/israel-war-hamas-attack-october-7-tattoo-cqq2fmllw posted:

A friend of Arik Kraunik, the kibbutz�s head of security and the first civilian casualty of the rampage, asked Uzan to tattoo his arm with the likeness of his dead friend along with the date �7/10�.

quote:

Be'eri is not a settlement, it's a kibbutz that has existed since the Israel became a state. Unless, of course, you count all of Israelis as settlers. Which is far from the common definition that is widely used.

I don't think Hamas makes the distinction for settlements on the border of Gaza that they were founded 2 years before Israel was a state.

# ? Jan 22, 2024 20:55

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Marenghi posted:

It's more detailed but it directly contradicts the New Yorker article which stated the gate opened at 7:11 which was after they claim Kraunik died. The gate opened when the civilian car was shot which would mean it happened after the initial conflict in which the head of security died.

It also seems to contradict this later article by the times.

I don't think Hamas makes the distinction for settlements on the border of Gaza that they were founded 2 years before Israel was a state.

First of all, it didn't state the gate opened at 7:11 AM, it claimed that's when armed men came through the opened gate:

quote:

At 7:11, a group of armed men ran through the front gate, which had swung open.

And when given a less detailed timeline and a more detailed timeline with slight conflicting differences between many different sources, why are you opting to believe the one that's less detailed?

Kalit fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Jan 22, 2024

# ? Jan 22, 2024 21:01

Marenghi: Oct 16, 2008; Don't trust the liberals,
they will betray you

Okay but all 3 articles posted so far confirm the gate opened at the same time the civilian was shot, at which time the fighters entered. So it saying the gate opened at 7:11 is the same thing as saying the car was shot then, as was Hamas gaining entry.

I mean even your "more detailed" article makes the same claim. The gate opened for the car, which was shot, and Hamas immediately entered.

quote:

The gates started to roll open.

One of the two gunmen burst out from behind a tree, aimed his rifle at the car and opened fire. Bullets pierced the car windows. The car rolled forward, coming to a halt against the half-open gate.

The gunmen were now inside the kibbutz.

I mean this is the whole issue, we don't have any clear timeline of what happened yet. The timeline is so tight and the evidence sparse that we don't know if the civilian car was shot first, or if the head of security had already engaged in a firefight with them having been pre-warned by an early morning jogger.

quote:

And when given a less detailed timeline and a more detailed timeline with slight conflicting differences between many different sources, why are you opting to believe the one that's less detailed?

Is it more detailed? it adds some timestamps but an awful lot seems to happen between 6:55 and 7:00.
The times article about the mourners claims the head of security was the first civilian causality of Beeri, as do many other articles.

# ? Jan 22, 2024 21:11

Ms Adequate: Oct 30, 2011; Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling

Why are we trying to carefully litigate exactly who shot who, when? We all know that the question is whether you think the inhabitans of Be'eri and other locations were legitimate targets per se, and wherever we fall on that is going to color our conclusions. Nobody is going to start out thinking "Hamas were completely justified in killing a thousand+ people and taking a bunch of hostages" but then go "Actually they did kill a civilian first so nvm their struggle is no longer valid", and conversely nobody is going to go "Hamas acted as a pack of murderous bandits and rapists, who killed a large number of civilians and have an explicitly antisemitic cause" and then change their tune to "Oh well if someone in Be'eri fired back before any civilians were killed that makes it all okay"

# ? Jan 22, 2024 21:18

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Marenghi posted:

Okay but all 3 articles posted so far confirm the gate opened at the same time the civilian was shot, at which time the fighters entered. So it saying the gate opened at 7:11 is the same thing as saying the car was shot then, as was Hamas gaining entry.

I mean even your "more detailed" article makes the same claim. The gate opened for the car, which was shot, and Hamas immediately entered.

I mean this is the whole issue, we don't have any clear timeline of what happened yet. The timeline is so tight and the evidence sparse that we don't know if the civilian car was shot first, or if the head of security had already engaged in a firefight with them having been pre-warned by an early morning jogger.

Is it more detailed? it adds some timestamps but an awful lot seems to happen between 6:55 and 7:00.
The times article about the mourners claims the head of security was the first civilian causality of Beeri, as do many other articles.

And no where states that Kraunik was killed by 7:00. That initial New Yorker article states that it's believed that he was the first civilian casualty. That thetimes.co.uk article talks about how that was just 6 days after, so who knows if they knew the full scope of what happened yet that morning.

Also, those NYT and Reuters articles both stated that the Hamas fighters jumped out of hiding to attack the car. It's impossible for them to be engaged in a firefight if the first thing they did from cover was to attack a car.

And yes, of course it's more detailed. Did you even read it? There's literally more details on the events that unfolded at that specific time than either the New Yorker or the NYT article.

Kalit fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Jan 22, 2024

# ? Jan 22, 2024 21:25

fool of sound: Oct 10, 2012

There�s also a glaring gap between the expectations of (Hamas) foot soldiers and Israeli bombers with regards to civilian life, and even what constitutes a civilian. Annihilating a refugee camp or hospital with five tons of ordinance receives a mealymouthed excuse about tunnels or weapon stockpiles, while a rocket blowing a pothole in a road is unquestionably civilian targeted terrorism. Similarly an IDF tank blowing away some shadows at the far end of an alley is soldiers defending themselves while Hamas fighters are expected to maintain proof of non-compliance with armed citizens.

Playing stupid semantic games about some deontological principle of war is nonsense when the facts of the matter are that Israel has killed an order of magnitude more children alone that the total combatant plus civilian Israeli casualties. If the war lawyers in this thread, in the media, and in power can look at that fact and say �well actually the rules say they�re both bad� at best then those laws are not worth attention.

# ? Jan 22, 2024 21:37

Esran: Apr 28, 2008

In a desperate attempt to help this thread find literally any other subject than the endless discussion of whether the genocide victims were resisting in The Right Way on October 7th:

The Danish national broadcaster interviewed a couple of Danish-born people who have been part of the IDF, and I thought the interview with the younger was kind of interesting.

https://www-dr-dk.translate.goog/ny...&_x_tr_pto=wapp

As the child of a Danish mother and an Israeli father, this guy lived in Denmark and occasionally visited family in Israel. During one of these visits in 2014, he gets press ganged by the IDF.

His description of his time in the IDF implies that he found the IDF to be an amateurish organization, and the general atmosphere to be uncaring and brutal even back then. I replaced a few words in the machine translation for accuracy of meaning.

quote:

I remember being amazed at how disorganized it all seemed. It was an army of 18-19-year-olds whose main goal was to seem cool in each other's eyes.

(...)

'Why are they throwing stones?', I thought. It was my first encounter with Palestinians in the West Bank, and it touched me as they were children. We were the good guys, so why did they hate us, I thought. But I also thought that it was not me personally, but my uniform they were aiming for.

Inside the base I spoke to the riot police. They were young men like us. They hoped the Palestinians would demonstrate so they could shoot and beat them. It wasn't nice to have rocks thrown at you, but I didn't see children or protesters as a military threat. It was not all as I had thought. Instead, children and protesters were the enemy. There were officers looking forward to beating people. Their superiors agreed.

On social media today, I can see some of those I was in the army with then, and who have now been recalled. It appears that they are inside the Gaza Strip on newly established bases. I think they don't live in the same reality as the rest of us. This applies to most of my encounters with Israeli society. Last year I was in Israel and was about to be assaulted by six young guys because they thought I looked left-wing and wanted to know who I voted for.

I think this perspective is a good reminder that Israel isn't just some otherwise normal country that suffered an attack that has caused it to lash out excessively. It's a Nazi state that sees the Palestinians as subhuman, with the (poorly disciplined) military culture that follows from that, and it has been for a long time.

Considering how Hamas appears to be pantsing the IDF in Gaza, and considering how Israel treats their own citizens who step out of line, I doubt much has improved in the last decade.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Esran fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Jan 23, 2024

# ? Jan 22, 2024 23:56

Mean Baby: May 28, 2005

Esran posted:

In a desperate attempt to help this thread find literally any other subject than the endless discussion of whether the genocide victims were resisting in The Right Way on October 7th:

The Danish national broadcaster interviewed a couple of Danish-born people who have been part of the IDF, and I thought the interview with the younger was kind of interesting.

https://www-dr-dk.translate.goog/ny...&_x_tr_pto=wapp

As the child of a Danish mother and an Israeli father, this guy lived in Denmark and occasionally visited family in Israel. During one of these visits in 2014, he gets press ganged by the IDF.

His description of his time in the IDF implies that he found the IDF to be an amateurish organization, and the general atmosphere to be uncaring and brutal even back then. I replaced a few words in the machine translation for accuracy of meaning.

I think this perspective is a good reminder that Israel isn't just some otherwise normal country that suffered an attack that has caused it to lash out excessively. It's a Nazi state that sees the Palestinians as subhuman, with the (poorly disciplined) military culture that follows from that, and it has been for a long time.

Considering how Hamas appears to be pantsing the IDF in Gaza, and considering how Israel treats their own citizens who step out of line, I doubt much has improved in the last decade.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

This is such an insane probation, what are you even doing?

# ? Jan 23, 2024 01:48

fuctifino: Jun 11, 2001

Mean Baby posted:

This is such an insane probation, what are you even doing?

Probating one of the few people who tried to steer the thread back on course, while ignoring the many bullshit BUT LOOK AT THE HOUTHIS etc circular argument posts is on par with Koos's moderation skills. Maybe if Koos actually engaged with the thread rather than relying on reports from pissbabies, then more people wouldn't be driven out of the thread.

Esran posted:

In a desperate attempt to help this thread find literally any other subject than the endless discussion of whether the genocide victims were resisting in The Right Way on October 7th:

The Danish national broadcaster interviewed a couple of Danish-born people who have been part of the IDF, and I thought the interview with the younger was kind of interesting.

https://www-dr-dk.translate.goog/ny...&_x_tr_pto=wapp

As the child of a Danish mother and an Israeli father, this guy lived in Denmark and occasionally visited family in Israel. During one of these visits in 2014, he gets press ganged by the IDF.

His description of his time in the IDF implies that he found the IDF to be an amateurish organization, and the general atmosphere to be uncaring and brutal even back then. I replaced a few words in the machine translation for accuracy of meaning.

I think this perspective is a good reminder that Israel isn't just some otherwise normal country that suffered an attack that has caused it to lash out excessively. It's a Nazi state that sees the Palestinians as subhuman, with the (poorly disciplined) military culture that follows from that, and it has been for a long time.

Considering how Hamas appears to be pantsing the IDF in Gaza, and considering how Israel treats their own citizens who step out of line, I doubt much has improved in the last decade.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

This was a good post

fuctifino fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Jan 23, 2024

# ? Jan 23, 2024 01:52

Mean Baby: May 28, 2005

fuctifino posted:

Probating one of the few people who tried to steer the thread back on course, while ignoring the many bullshit BUT LOOK AT THE HOUTHIS circular argument posts is on par with Koos's moderation skills. Maybe if Koos actually engaged with the thread rather than relying on reports from pissbabies, then more people wouldn't be driven out of the thread.

I�ve stopped posting in this thread because if you post a criticism of Israel which is not extremely carefully calculated you�ll get a day probe but if you talk about dehumanized Hamas rapist baby murders who killed thousands you can post freely. I felt calling this out was worth a day probe.

# ? Jan 23, 2024 02:02

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

fuctifino posted:

Probating one of the few people who tried to steer the thread back on course, while ignoring the many bullshit BUT LOOK AT THE HOUTHIS etc circular argument posts is on par with Koos's moderation skills. Maybe if Koos actually engaged with the thread rather than relying on reports from pissbabies, then more people wouldn't be driven out of the thread.

This was a good post

I basically agree, the probe complaint is legitimate but in light of it being interesting and useful content in a rerail I'd probably at most have made a post suggesting the language was getting incendiary. More likely not even that. On the plus side, it's a sixer.

# ? Jan 23, 2024 02:04

KillHour: Oct 28, 2007

Esran posted:

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

I don't usually do this, but goddamn this was a bad probe.

Edit: have some news so we can stop arguing over whether Hitler or Satan is more evil.

https://www.axios.com/2024/01/22/israel-hamas-gaza-ceasefire-hostages

quote:

Scoop: Israel proposes 2-month fighting pause in Gaza for release of all hostages

Israel has given Hamas a proposal through Qatari and Egyptian mediators that includes up to two months of a pause in the fighting as part of a multi-phase deal that would include the release of all remaining hostages held in Gaza, two Israeli officials said.

This is a big deal. It would give the UN and the ICC 2 months to pressure Israel and hopefully gives a buffer for aid to save a few lives.

Hamas hasn't responded yet, but there's got to be a lot of pressure on them to accept.

KillHour fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Jan 23, 2024

# ? Jan 23, 2024 02:04

fuctifino: Jun 11, 2001

Mean Baby posted:

I�ve stopped posting in this thread because if you post a criticism of Israel which is not extremely carefully calculated you�ll get a day probe but if you talk about dehumanized Hamas rapist baby murders who killed thousands you can post freely. I felt calling this out was worth a day probe.

I've been lurking too for the same reasons. So many posters no longer post here, and some have even been driven away from the forum by Koos's over-moderation.

Koos is a prime example of someone who shouldn't be anywhere near moderation tools or decisions. They have a shallow and sensitive ego, and they have a very strong bias over the implementation of their very rules. It's time to loving stop this bullshit...

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST BY KOOS, DEMONSTRATING THEIR SHALLOW & SENSITIVE EGO)

fuctifino fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Jan 24, 2024

# ? Jan 23, 2024 02:14

Irony Be My Shield: Jul 29, 2012

KillHour posted:

I don't usually do this, but goddamn this was a bad probe.

Edit: have some news so we can stop arguing over whether Hitler or Satan is more evil.

https://www.axios.com/2024/01/22/israel-hamas-gaza-ceasefire-hostages

This is a big deal. It gives the UN and the ICC 2 months to pressure Israel and hopefully gives a buffer for aid to save a few lives.

quote:

The Israeli officials said the proposal makes clear Israel will not agree to end the war and will not agree to release all 6,000 Palestinian prisoners from Israeli prisons

Hamas has repeatedly stated that it will not release any more hostages unless 1) Israel agrees to end the war permanently (and thus let Hamas continue to exist in the long-term) and 2) Israel releases all Palestinian prisoners, and this is Israel refusing to meet either of those demands. While 2 months is longer than the previous ceasefire this deal would involve Hamas getting rid of all of its leverage in exchange for no relevant concessions - Israel would go right back to smashing Hamas after 2 months (it would be very foolish to trust their unenforceable promise that their offensive "would be significantly smaller in scope and intensity") and they can once again just release random Palestinian protesters they grabbed off the street in the past few months rather than prisoners who would be useful to Hamas if released. I would be very surprised if Hamas accepted this.

e: the only way I could see a deal happening is if Israel caves on point 2 and Hamas caves on point 1. Israel is very reluctant to do another mass-release of Hamas prisoners given that Sinwar went on to architect the October 7th attacks, but they might judge that any dangerous prisoners they released would mostly be killed or captured once any ceasefire ends anyway. Hamas obviously wants Israel to end its campaign so it can continue existing but they might decide that they're never getting a better offer than than "all hostages for all prisoners" and hope that an influx of manpower helps turn the tide of battle.

Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Jan 23, 2024

# ? Jan 23, 2024 02:21

Ms Adequate: Oct 30, 2011; Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling

God drat I've seen some bad probes before but god drat

# ? Jan 23, 2024 02:26

E2M2: Mar 2, 2007; Ain't No Thang.

KillHour posted:

I don't usually do this, but goddamn this was a bad probe.

Edit: have some news so we can stop arguing over whether Hitler or Satan is more evil.

https://www.axios.com/2024/01/22/israel-hamas-gaza-ceasefire-hostages

This is a big deal. It would give the UN and the ICC 2 months to pressure Israel and hopefully gives a buffer for aid to save a few lives.

Hamas hasn't responded yet, but there's got to be a lot of pressure on them to accept.

Why would they agree to it, especially with this:

quote:

The Israeli officials said the proposal makes clear Israel will not agree to end the war and will not agree to release all 6,000 Palestinian prisoners from Israeli prisons

Also if you were to follow this thread about I/P news you would have thought it was still October 10th or something. Instead of months later.

# ? Jan 23, 2024 02:28

Sephyr: Aug 28, 2012

fuctifino posted:

I've been lurking too for the same reasons. So many posters no longer post here, and some have even been driven away from the forum by Koos's over-moderation.

Koos is a prime example of someone who shouldn't be anywhere near moderation tools or decisions. They have a shallow and sensitive ego, and they have a very strong bias over the implementation of their very rules. It's time to loving stop this bullshit...

Thirded. Use any bit of irony or figure of speech? You're not being "serious", take 12-18 hours off.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Jan 23, 2024 02:42

KillHour: Oct 28, 2007

Irony Be My Shield posted:

Hamas has repeatedly stated that it will not release any more hostages unless 1) Israel agrees to end the war permanently (and thus let Hamas continue to exist in the long-term) and 2) Israel releases all Palestinian prisoners, and this is Israel refusing to meet either of those demands. While 2 months is longer than the previous ceasefire this deal would involve Hamas getting rid of all of its leverage in exchange for no relevant concessions - Israel would go right back to smashing Hamas after 2 months (it would be very foolish to trust their unenforceable promise that their offensive "would be significantly smaller in scope and intensity") and they can once again just release random Palestinian protesters they grabbed off the street in the past few months rather than prisoners who would be useful to Hamas if released. I would be very surprised if Hamas accepted this.

My counter argument to this is that if Hamas doesn't agree to something soon, there won't be a Gaza or any Gazans left for them to be the leaders of. How much longer before 5 figures of dead Palestinians turns into 6? What happens when your population is literally decimated from starvation? Besides, even if Israel released all their hostages tomorrow, they could (and probably would) pick up another few hundred next week on trumped up charges.

# ? Jan 23, 2024 02:43

Scam Likely: Feb 19, 2021

Are there studies on the effects of war trauma and death of loved ones for children under the age of 18, and how much it motivates them to turn to extremist organizations as a result? Surely someone has done the calculus on how many future terrorists are likely to spring up based on the amount of children killed in wars on terror.

I'm trying to find publicly available stuff but a lot is behind paywalls. Such as https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2021-31851-001

e: I'm aware the answer isn't a simple "every X number of children killed results in Y future terrorists"

# ? Jan 23, 2024 02:46

Irony Be My Shield: Jul 29, 2012

KillHour posted:

My counter argument to this is that if Hamas doesn't agree to something soon, there won't be a Gaza or any Gazans left for them to be the leaders of. How much longer before 5 figures of dead Palestinians turns into 6? What happens when your population is literally decimated from starvation? Besides, even if Israel released all their hostages tomorrow, they could (and probably would) pick up another few hundred next week on trumped up charges.

I agree that Israel can always arrest more Palestinians, but if it released all prisoners that would include Hamas members who could go back to Gaza and contribute to their war effort, which would be useful to Hamas in a way that the currently proposed deal would not be. I think Hamas would at least hold out for something like that, although I do think you're right that they're running out of time and it's becoming increasingly clear that Netanyahu is prepared to sacrifice all the hostages.

# ? Jan 23, 2024 02:48

fuctifino: Jun 11, 2001

Counterpoint: Being released from prison into concentration camps controlled by the prison guards, is not what most people would call being freed. "Less tortured" might be a better term to use.

fuctifino fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Jan 23, 2024

# ? Jan 23, 2024 02:51

Koos Group: Mar 6, 2013

Google Jeb Bush posted:

I basically agree, the probe complaint is legitimate but in light of it being interesting and useful content in a rerail I'd probably at most have made a post suggesting the language was getting incendiary. More likely not even that. On the plus side, it's a sixer.

Yes, I wasn't sure about that one and it could have been a warning instead. That's why it was only a sixer.

# ? Jan 23, 2024 03:13

Yawgmoft: Nov 15, 2004

So anyway I started blasting

# ? Jan 23, 2024 03:19

Mean Baby: May 28, 2005

Yawgmoft posted:

So anyway I started blasting

I wasn�t sure, so I started blasting is basically the IDFs modus operandi.

# ? Jan 23, 2024 03:24

Jaxyon: Mar 7, 2016; I’m just saying I would like to see a man beat a woman in a cage. Just to be sure.

Koos Group posted:

Yes, I wasn't sure about that one and it could have been a warning instead. That's why it was only a sixer.

Anywhere I've ever modded, I would NEVER moderate criticisms of my moderation, I'd have other people do it. To avoid even the appearance of bias.

You, on the other hand....

Mean Baby posted:

I wasn�t sure, so I started blasting is basically the IDFs modus operandi.

If only the cowardly posters would stop hiding good posts behind probatable shields!

The only answer is to bomb everything.

# ? Jan 23, 2024 04:10

Brucolac: Jun 14, 2012

Koos Group posted:

Yes, I wasn't sure about that one and it could have been a warning instead. That's why it was only a sixer.

There is no scope for a sixer under MARTIAL LAW. I assume you now vanish in a puff of logic.

# ? Jan 23, 2024 04:29

Charliegrs: Aug 10, 2009

Irony Be My Shield posted:

I agree that Israel can always arrest more Palestinians, but if it released all prisoners that would include Hamas members who could go back to Gaza and contribute to their war effort, which would be useful to Hamas in a way that the currently proposed deal would not be. I think Hamas would at least hold out for something like that, although I do think you're right that they're running out of time and it's becoming increasingly clear that Netanyahu is prepared to sacrifice all the hostages.

I mean we will probably find out in the next few years. I'm sure the newly made orphans of Gaza today will be the next generation of Hamas fighters or whatever the resistance movement will be called and I'm sure the numbers will be far greater than they were before.

# ? Jan 23, 2024 05:22

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Esran posted:

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

poo poo probe.

fuctifino posted:

I've been lurking too for the same reasons. So many posters no longer post here, and some have even been driven away from the forum by Koos's over-moderation.

Koos is a prime example of someone who shouldn't be anywhere near moderation tools or decisions. They have a shallow and sensitive ego, and they have a very strong bias over the implementation of their very rules. It's time to loving stop this bullshit...

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Another poo poo probe.

Koos Group posted:

Yes, I wasn't sure about that one and it could have been a warning instead. That's why it was only a sixer.

Get your poo poo together, Koos. You clearly have enough self-awareness to second guess yourself, so just... act on it?

# ? Jan 23, 2024 05:49

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

https://x.com/forensicarchi/status/1749557672804778414?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q

Seems there's been another major Israeli massacre in a designated 'safe zone'.

# ? Jan 23, 2024 07:25

Woebin: Feb 6, 2006

Koos Group posted:

Yes, I wasn't sure about that one and it could have been a warning instead. That's why it was only a sixer.

I haven't posted in this thread before and only recently started following it as a reader, so here's an outsider's perspective: I was wondering about the weird tone I was seeing in this thread, it's seemed one-sided in a way I wouldn't expect on modern-day SA. Then on these last couple of pages there was someone more strongly speaking out against Israel specifically and they got probed, and others who called that probe out got probed in turn.

So basically, to me it seems like you're moderating this thread pretty unfairly, and probing people for questioning that seems - as others have said - fragile at best. Maybe you could learn something yourself here? If this sort of thing keeps happening (and I haven't followed the thread for very long so I don't know, but it sounds like this isn't the first time) maybe your moderation is part of the problem.

Or maybe I'll eat my first-ever probe since joining the forums for this, which to me would kinda prove this point.

Anyway I don't think you need to have favorable opinions on Hamas or the Houthi or any other group to see that Israel's enacting genocide. Genocide doesn't become justifiable because the target did something bad first.

Woebin fucked around with this message at 12:52 on Jan 23, 2024

# ? Jan 23, 2024 12:38

Kchama: Jul 25, 2007

Woebin posted:

I haven't posted in this thread before and only recently started following it as a reader, so here's an outsider's perspective: I was wondering about the weird tone I was seeing in this thread, it's seemed one-sided in a way I wouldn't expect on modern-day SA. Then on these last couple of pages I've there was someone more strongly speaking out against Israel specifically and they got probed, and others who called that probe out got probed in turn.

So basically, to me it seems like you're moderating this thread pretty unfairly, and probing people for questioning that seems - as others have said - fragile at best. Maybe you could learn something yourself here? If this sort of thing keeps happening (and I haven't followed the thread for very long so I don't know, but it sounds like this isn't the first time) maybe your moderation is part of the problem.

Or maybe I'll eat my first-ever probe since joining the forums for this, which to me would kinda prove this point.

Anyway I don't think you need to have favorable opinions on Hamas or the Houthi or any other group to see that Israel's enacting genocide. Genocide doesn't become justifiable because the target did something bad first.

We've all sharply criticized Israel, even if we agree less on other things. I know I've outright stated that Israel as a government and military are evil and incompetent to the core and are ran by genocidal monsters. It is not criticizing Israel that gets you probated.

# ? Jan 23, 2024 12:48

Seven Deadly Sins: Apr 5, 2009; I stole something that would make me fabulously wealthy...

But I eated it.

I think that one of the reasons I appreciate how this thread runs is that it tends to tamp down a bit on hyperbole - the events occurring are pretty starkly bad on their own merits, they don't need the help. An honest conversation about the situation needs honest representations of reality. There's plenty of places to pull out every loaded comparison, this doesn't necessarily need to be one of them.

That said, a warning in the thread probably would have gone better than Just Pushing Buttons, especially as other nonsense elsewhere gets simple sixers for pages-long derails and reports take so long to follow up on that the probation is irrelevant by the time it finally comes down. Maybe "Nazi State" is a bit more inflammatory and imprecise than you'd like, but if it was light enough to ignore "martial law" it was probably enough to use words and not buttons.

If anything, some tamping down of circular conversations where two people get personally snippy at one another and cease having meaningful discussion would do things more good.

Regardless, the post in question was good, and it really does seem like the IDF is an embarrassing collection of inept rank-and-file racists and bloodthirsty COs. It's hard to imagine anything short of actual factual military intervention stopping anything that's happening there, and pretty much anyone capable of taking such steps has already done enough grim calculus to decide it's not worth it.

# ? Jan 23, 2024 13:03

Woebin: Feb 6, 2006

Kchama posted:

We've all sharply criticized Israel, even if we agree less on other things. I know I've outright stated that Israel as a government and military are evil and incompetent to the core and are ran by genocidal monsters. It is not criticizing Israel that gets you probated.

Sorry, I expressed myself poorly if I came off as saying you haven't. What I meant was that as a newcomer to the thread who's only read the last few pages it seemed like people were being very careful about criticizing Israel, either in terms of tone or content. I'm absolutely not trying to claim that you or anyone I've seen in the last few pages are singing Israel's praises or anything like that.

I don't want to detail by further getting into my impression of the thread, so tl;dr: the discussion in this thread seemed different from what I would've expected, which the recent bout of probations and the responses to said probations appear to partially explain.

# ? Jan 23, 2024 13:03

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# ? May 25, 2024 11:15

Kchama: Jul 25, 2007

Seven Deadly Sins posted:

I think that one of the reasons I appreciate how this thread runs is that it tends to tamp down a bit on hyperbole - the events occurring are pretty starkly bad on their own merits, they don't need the help. An honest conversation about the situation needs honest representations of reality. There's plenty of places to pull out every loaded comparison, this doesn't necessarily need to be one of them.

That said, a warning in the thread probably would have gone better than Just Pushing Buttons, especially as other nonsense elsewhere gets simple sixers for pages-long derails and reports take so long to follow up on that the probation is irrelevant by the time it finally comes down. Maybe "Nazi State" is a bit more inflammatory and imprecise than you'd like, but if it was light enough to ignore "martial law" it was probably enough to use words and not buttons.

If anything, some tamping down of circular conversations where two people get personally snippy at one another and cease having meaningful discussion would do things more good.

Regardless, the post in question was good, and it really does seem like the IDF is an embarrassing collection of inept rank-and-file racists and bloodthirsty COs. It's hard to imagine anything short of actual factual military intervention stopping anything that's happening there, and pretty much anyone capable of taking such steps has already done enough grim calculus to decide it's not worth it.

I agree with all of this.

Woebin posted:

Sorry, I expressed myself poorly if I came off as saying you haven't. What I meant was that as a newcomer to the thread who's only read the last few pages it seemed like people were being very careful about criticizing Israel, either in terms of tone or content. I'm absolutely not trying to claim that you or anyone I've seen in the last few pages are singing Israel's praises or anything like that.

I don't want to detail by further getting into my impression of the thread, so tl;dr: the discussion in this thread seemed different from what I would've expected, which the recent bout of probations and the responses to said probations appear to partially explain.

Oh, no worries. I was not thinking that at all. I just wanted to express that he wasn't probed for being an Israel criticizer. I was using myself as an example because I am probably not seen as an Israel Criticizer even though I think everything they're doing is complete genocide.

D&D just has a very distinct ruleset that means that some sorts of hyperbole that would be perfectly fine anywhere else can be probeworthy even if you weren't trying to cause trouble or anything by saying it. I do not believe the probed person in question was attempting anything of the sort with those words.

# ? Jan 23, 2024 13:07

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