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ImpAtom posted:To be honest I'm not sure it is precisely. A problem with a lot of these kinds of settings is that they absolutely have the ability to do so within the confines of the story but being effective at doing that means that you lose the drama of a captured/defeated villain returning, so by the necessity of drama they have to fail but story obviously can't acknowledge that so any escape has to be presented as something unexpected. It's the ol' "Why doesn't Batman kill The Joker" question and the in-universe answer is "Because Arkham Asylum is a well-funded high-tech prison from which nobody should be able to escape" as much as the out-of-universe answer is "Because The Joker is marketable and nothing would keep him from coming back, including Batman killing him." I'd say the real reason that Batman shouldn't kill The Joker is because Batman is already operating outside of the legality of the law, and that's only tolerated because he doesn't play judge, jury, and executioner.
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Jan 23, 2024 08:49
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I don't think you need the law to be the reason why killing is wrong. Heck, even the law doesn't care about that.
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Jan 23, 2024 09:26
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Blueberry Pancakes posted:I'd say the real reason that Batman shouldn't kill The Joker is because Batman is already operating outside of the legality of the law, and that's only tolerated because he doesn't play judge, jury, and executioner. This is extremely low on the reasons list for why Batman doesn't kill the Joker.
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Jan 23, 2024 09:36
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Blueberry Pancakes posted:I'd say the real reason that Batman shouldn't kill The Joker is because Batman is already operating outside of the legality of the law, and that's only tolerated because he doesn't play judge, jury, and executioner. Depends on the series. Adam West Batman, for example, is a duly empowered officer of the law.
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Jan 23, 2024 10:39
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chiasaur11 posted:Depends on the series. Adam West Batman, for example, is a duly empowered officer of the law. Adam West Batman is like the last Batman who would kill anybody though
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Jan 23, 2024 13:47
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SyntheticPolygon posted:Horikoshi sorta confusedly/poorly and through shonen level scope: Systemic societal and cultural issues can lead to abused and disadvantaged people becoming criminals but they should still be treated with compassion and empathy somewhat. https://twitter.com/Fiend_Jr_/status/1748837627594154475
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Jan 23, 2024 13:48
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Good ol' Vegeta, he only genocided a few planets.
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Jan 23, 2024 13:55
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ImpAtom posted:Good ol' Vegeta, he only genocided a few planets. Maybe those planets had bad vibes!
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Jan 23, 2024 13:58
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Blueberry Pancakes posted:I'd say the real reason that Batman shouldn't kill The Joker is because Batman is already operating outside of the legality of the law, and that's only tolerated because he doesn't play judge, jury, and executioner. Not Batman but  Also Batman is such a psychological mess that he doesn't kill people because it would probably destroy the last shred of sanity he has. That's always my favorite interpretation. Fabricated posted:To be fair if you're coming from Naruto it sorta looks like this Kishi really wanted to do the "persecution and isolation forces people to do extreme things" idea, too, as sesn with all the very late Uchiha retcons, but of course most fans didn't buy it because it was so blatantly half-assed and last minute. Hori at least clearly had this idea from the start.
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Jan 23, 2024 14:29
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I guess my issue with this at least is that they've gone so over the top with how powerful, and deadly, and insane Shigaraki is that it's hard to buy him as at all redeemable. And I guess that's the point, Deku saving the seemingly unsavable, but man, they really need to stick the landing for that to be satisfying and I'm not sure I trust this series to do that.
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Jan 23, 2024 14:56
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ImpAtom posted:Good ol' Vegeta, he only genocided a few planets. But he's a loving dad and husband so who can say
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Jan 23, 2024 15:12
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Vegeta was still going to hell as late as the Buu saga and it took multiple genuinely selfless acts of sacrifice to balance his karma. Basically Shigaraki is going to have to let himself get his rear end kicked by a bubble gum monster.
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Jan 23, 2024 15:14
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What I learned from this discussion is that lots of people have differing interpretations of Batman! That said, I still like the way it's worded here. Also, regarding this Rhonne posted:I guess my issue with this at least is that they've gone so over the top with how powerful, and deadly, and insane Shigaraki is that it's hard to buy him as at all redeemable. And I guess that's the point, Deku saving the seemingly unsavable, but man, they really need to stick the landing for that to be satisfying and I'm not sure I trust this series to do that. I can agree with that. It feels weird to try and give redemption to someone who not only doesn't want it, but is actively pointing out that he is using his agency to deny the need for it.
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Jan 23, 2024 15:16
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Blueberry Pancakes posted:What I learned from this discussion is that lots of people have differing interpretations of Batman! It's a great comic from the legendary Frank Miller run of Daredevil. Would recommend. And for Batman, would recommend the animated film Batman: Under the Red Hood. It's the basis for my interpretation of Batman's motives. It's also, IMO, the absolute best Batman movie of all time.
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Jan 23, 2024 15:23
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Blueberry Pancakes posted:I can agree with that. It feels weird to try and give redemption to someone who not only doesn't want it, but is actively pointing out that he is using his agency to deny the need for it. Dabi sort of works because his entire family comes together to save him because they genuinely don't want him to die, even if their preventing his suicide bombing still reduced him to a smouldering skeleton.
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Jan 23, 2024 15:53
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I'm not sure I would call Dabi saved. Sure, they kept him from killing himself(and everyone else around him), but like you said, he's a smoldering skeleton at this point and he still wants to kill his family and everyone else. I guess Eri could fix his body up later, but that doesn't solve the issue of him being a homicidal maniac.Funky Valentine posted:Basically Shigaraki is going to have to let himself get his rear end kicked by a bubble gum monster. You're right, Mina should beat up Shigaraki.
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Jan 23, 2024 16:27
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Rhonne posted:I guess my issue with this at least is that they've gone so over the top with how powerful, and deadly, and insane Shigaraki is that it's hard to buy him as at all redeemable. And I guess that's the point, Deku saving the seemingly unsavable, but man, they really need to stick the landing for that to be satisfying and I'm not sure I trust this series to do that. I agree I don't think horikoshi is likely to stick the landing all that well, but he's had issues writing about deku and his ideals compellingly and convincingly whether the villain was just "a peer who was a dick to him personally" or "history's biggest mega-murderer". the scale is pretty irrelevant; he just doesn't have much interesting to say about the idea of heroism and he has yet to say the trite stuff in a way that comes off new or fresh or even just soundly executed. he wrote a guy who was basically responsible for every evil thing in history and then made that guy commit a super-elaborate super-boring suicide in the middle of the final battle so the heroes wouldn't have to make any moral judgments relating to him (he doesn't even let bakugo fight the baby, an eternally shameful decision). deku's desire to save shigaraki would be as unconvincing as it is now even if shigaraki's plan was to kill one guy.
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Jan 23, 2024 16:32
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Rhonne posted:You're right, Mina should beat up Shigaraki. No she should soothe his soul with the power of break dance.
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Jan 23, 2024 16:33
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her dance will break him, physically
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Jan 23, 2024 16:34
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Rhonne posted:I'm not sure I would call Dabi saved. Sure, they kept him from killing himself(and everyone else around him), but like you said, he's a smoldering skeleton at this point and he still wants to kill his family and everyone else. I guess Eri could fix his body up later, but that doesn't solve the issue of him being a homicidal maniac.
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Jan 23, 2024 16:53
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Valentin posted:
I mean, no? The heroes are just straight up trying to kill All For One, no questions asked. And they would have succeeded in killing him if he hadn't used Rewind to cheat death one more time and give himself a little more time. Not to mention, All Might tried to kill him in the past, and no one made any moral judgments on him except wishing he had actually finished the job. They should have let Bakugo fight the baby though, you're right about that.
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Jan 23, 2024 17:19
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If Shiggy and Dabi get to walk out of this alive and with prospects for a life then my pure beautiful boy O'clock II was robbed.
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Jan 23, 2024 17:37
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Caidin posted:If Shiggy and Dabi get to walk out of this alive and with prospects for a life then my pure beautiful boy O'clock II was robbed. O'clock II made a friend by the end though.
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Jan 23, 2024 17:41
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Honestly O'Clock II had a happier ending than Dabi's gonna get.
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Jan 23, 2024 17:44
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O'clock 2 went out on his own terms. And those terms were giving Koichi a cool scar and going "ha ha, you didn't win!" and blow up He was the coolest guy.
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Jan 23, 2024 17:44
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Is Dabi still an angry fire skeleton? I dont think hes gonna make it
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Jan 23, 2024 17:44
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hatty posted:Is Dabi still an angry fire skeleton? I dont think hes gonna make it Last time we saw him, his fire was put out, and he was just a burnt out husk with no arms, legs, eyes, or lips. So, uhh, not great.
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Jan 23, 2024 17:46
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Rhonne posted:Last time we saw him, his fire was put out, and he was just a burnt out husk with no arms, legs, eyes, or lips. So, uhh, not great. I mean he recovered from his first loss for no reason, maybe he'll just pop up with robot limbs later. And lips. Eyes. and the skin of course but ah hell you know what just build a robot kid and name'em Dabi and save everyone the grief.
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Jan 23, 2024 17:55
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I wonder if they'll de-Quirk Dabi. On one hand, it seems like a good idea since he's kind of self-destructive and a serial killer. On the other hand, what a twist of the knife that would be in light of his backstory.
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Jan 23, 2024 18:11
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I will genuinely laugh if the solution is "take their quirks away" because 1) that's just doing what All for One did, but "good" now, and 2) it'd be even more AtLA.
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Jan 23, 2024 18:19
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"take away their individuality" is absolutely not gonna be the play here. this is where the quirk translation runs into some issues yes this will coexist alongside deku giving up one for all (also OFA isn't just his individuality but something handed down and meant to be passed on, thats the whole point; this is also why he must give it up to truly save shigaraki, since it will be his own individuality as a person, even though he lacks it in the setting's superpower sense, that saves the day) but this is the issue you run into when you make your superhero powers serve textually as a core aspect of identity. e: especially now that we've established via the whole quirk vestige rebellion thing that they're kind of a piece of your soul Valentin fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Jan 23, 2024 |
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Jan 23, 2024 18:25
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Valentin posted:"take away their individuality" is absolutely not gonna be the play here. this is where the quirk translation runs into some issues Deku will give up One For All, but somehow, this will cause him to unlock his own natural quirk, which is a combination of his mom's telekinesis and his dad's fire breathing, creating a pyrokinesis quirk that allows him to safely stop the lava from Mt. Fuji.
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Jan 23, 2024 18:48
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Horikoshi made it pretty clear that giving up the quirk ghosts is not the same as giving up the accumulated power. Even "quirkless" Deku would still be equivalent to year 1 Deku (see also All Might keeping a whole lot of power even after passing it on). My impression, especially given the star and stripes cameo, is that Deku intends to have the quirk ghosts dive into Shiragaki's psyche, uncover what's being buried, empower it and defeat Shigaraki from inside and outside with the help of Tenko. And probably destroy all the stolen quirks in the process.
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Jan 23, 2024 22:10
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Treating Shigaraki and Tenko like they are two different entities would be such a cop-out.
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Jan 23, 2024 22:17
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Rhonne posted:Treating Shigaraki and Tenko like they are two different entities would be such a cop-out. Oh god, that's absolutely going to happen, especially with the existence of quirk ghosts and specially name-dropping Tenko as if he is something separate from Shigaraki. Lt. Lizard fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Jan 23, 2024 |
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Jan 23, 2024 23:03
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I would normally agree but I feel like having AFO shoved into your skull by a mad doctor in such a way that it drastically alters your personality is probably the closest you're going to get to justification for that.
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Jan 23, 2024 23:04
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Rhonne posted:I'm not sure I would call Dabi saved. Sure, they kept him from killing himself(and everyone else around him), but like you said, he's a smoldering skeleton at this point and he still wants to kill his family and everyone else. I guess Eri could fix his body up later, but that doesn't solve the issue of him being a homicidal maniac. I feel like these characters just need to get into gaming. Shigaraki uses to game, but he's only become worse since he stopped gaming. Same with Spinner - was the most sane when he was a gamer, and then he became all hosed up (and presumably isn't gaming in his current state). And I don't think Dabi ever gamed? I dunno, seems pretty straightforward to me. Edit: While Dabi is recovering from being turned into a skeleton, they can let him play Like A Dragon
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Jan 23, 2024 23:13
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Ytlaya posted:I feel like these characters just need to get into gaming. Shigaraki uses to game, but he's only become worse since he stopped gaming. Same with Spinner - was the most sane when he was a gamer, and then he became all hosed up (and presumably isn't gaming in his current state). And I don't think Dabi ever gamed? You know who is a gamer? Mineta.
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Jan 23, 2024 23:14
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Rhonne posted:Treating Shigaraki and Tenko like they are two different entities would be such a cop-out. Darth Vader did kill Anakin in a way...
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Jan 23, 2024 23:14
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Tenko: Who are you? Tomura: I'm you. Only a little more... bizarre.
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Jan 23, 2024 23:23
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