|
you don't have to read all of das kapital, it is very long and lots has been written about it or built upon it that is, frankly, more relevant and readable. but please familiarize yourself with things like "monopoly building" and "consolidation" and "debt"
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2024 23:35
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 12:24 |
|
|
JAY ZERO SUM GAME posted:this one weird trick marx hates
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2024 23:36
|
|
|
I would rather watch anime adaptation of Kapital.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2024 23:39
|
|
|
Mandel Brotset posted:the unwillingness of capital to entertain the debt jubilee is one of the defining aspects of the neoliberal era of history. idk what about the current moment makes you think marx might have been wrong when every warning light is flashing and opportunity after opportunity for reform is missed… Afro-pessimism but for whatever race Bill is. I guess class-pessimism? It's as idealistic as people who think Capitalism will endure because it's good. Bill thinks it's bad but seems to have the same problem of viewing it through the lens of idealism, where, as has been pointed out, the thing about the declining rate of profit is - it doesn't matter if liberals are able to ignore the material world, the material world still exists. Ignoring any chance to reform does not mean that it's not a problem they must reform on collapse in the face of, it just means that they will collapse - because absent any action - how could the rate of profit stabilize or reverse course? Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 23:45 on Jan 23, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2024 23:41
|
|
|
its very funny that technology is apparently something marx never addressed despite it being fundamental to the tendency of the rate of profit to fall
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2024 23:44
|
|
|
Raskolnikov38 posted:oh bankruptcy, you mean where a company sheds its assets to be devoured by larger capitalists as a form of... consolidation??? yeah marx definitely never wrote about that Doesn’t even need to be Marx. One of the best and least talked about American thinkers on the business cycle, Wesley Mitchell, made stupendous efforts on the subject simply by analyzing cycles and elaborating interpretations from the material fact. One of the major topics of his work was exactly how crucial was the slump phase of crisis for the consolidation of capital into value recovery, providing the means for profit regeneration — Mitchell basically provide empirical proof that crises are a feature and the slump is necessary to create new investment that will blossom into the next boom phase. His work justifies a possible socialist strategy of transition: let capitalists run it to bust and then the socialist state sweeps in to take it over. By doing so, the value recovery can go directly to society instead of being directed into profit (which leads to cannibalizing productive capacity for example)
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2024 23:45
|
|
|
stephenthinkpad posted:I would rather watch anime adaptation of Kapital. https://youtu.be/0T0a_jXHiDo?si=FfLIrmltcuTzxWTm https://www.amazon.ca/Capital-Manga-Karl-Marx/dp/1926958195
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2024 23:49
|
|
|
marx, who wrote at length about the history of class struggle and the transition from feudalism to capitalism thru the industrial revolution, definitely never thought about technology
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2024 23:51
|
|
|
Oneiros posted:marx, who wrote at length about the history of class struggle and the transition from feudalism to capitalism thru the industrial revolution, definitely never thought about technology That's a shame, I bet he would have some good insights on the decline of Tindr.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2024 23:56
|
|
|
dead gay comedy forums posted:His work justifies a possible socialist strategy of transition: let capitalists run it to bust and then the socialist state sweeps in to take it over. By doing so, the value recovery can go directly to society instead of being directed into profit (which leads to cannibalizing productive capacity for example) Oh no China's real estate sector is imploding. China is done for. Oh no China has nationalized the failing real estate companies. China is toast. Oh no housing prices are now falling in China. China is finished!
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 00:03
|
|
|
Oneiros posted:marx, who wrote at length about the history of class struggle and the transition from feudalism to capitalism thru the industrial revolution, definitely never thought about technology He describes what feels like every machine used in the loving textile industry from the kind of plow used to prepare fields for planting flax, I think he had a handle on it lol.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 00:06
|
|
|
JAY ZERO SUM GAME posted:you don't have to read all of das kapital, it is very long and lots has been written about it or built upon it that is, frankly, more relevant and readable. but please familiarize yourself with things like "monopoly building" and "consolidation" and "debt" im going to start photoshopping marx quotes onto magic cards and see if anyone notices quote:If we now fix our attention on that portion of the machinery employed in the construction of machines, which constitutes the operating tool, we find the manual implements reappearing, but on a cyclopean scale. 2wb artifact When Cyclopean Scale enters the battlefield, target opponent chooses a creature. Create a token that it is a copy of it under your control, except it is also an Artifact with 5 +1/+1 tokens and "Whenever this creature becomes tapped, tap target creature with the same name as this creature." The Oldest Man has issued a correction as of 00:22 on Jan 24, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 00:16
|
|
|
oh man that's good
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 00:28
|
|
|
The Oldest Man posted:im going to start photoshopping marx quotes onto magic cards and see if anyone notices
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 00:39
|
|
|
BillsPhoenix posted:Rome basically always comes up when talking about the demise of America, but there's tens of thousands of cultures and countries that no longer exist. They mention consolidation and bankruptcies at 7:47. "The crisis causes businesses to go bust. There's also consolidation within industry where firms combine together. Sometimes in some process industries there's mothballing of plants. What that does is it takes C, Constant Capital out of the system. As business go bust the reserve army of unemployed, as Marx called it, increases. That places downward pressure on wages because people are competing for jobs. They'll take a job at a lower pay, etc. What that does is it reduces V, variable capital (wages). The overall equation gets restored. The rate of profit recovers and then we're back on another cycle of accumulation.".
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 00:39
|
|
|
The Oldest Man posted:im going to start photoshopping marx quotes onto magic cards and see if anyone notices Should the token become tapped if the original card is tapped? Right now it doesn't.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 00:41
|
|
|
I think the fall of Rome is a pretty good example of the sort of worry Bill has put forward. Sure, it seems inevitable that the American empire will collapse, but this doesn't mean capitalism will end. At least in the west (where I am more familiar), the societies that came after Rome were a direct continuation of the late Western Roman system of government. Maybe America falls and China continues to use the capitalist mode of production. Obviously in the historical example there were differences in the political economies of Rome and its successor states and there would be in this example too. China will likely continue to exercise strong state control for instance. You can point to the TRPF, but nobody has really tried capitalism armed with marxist economics until now, so who knows what could be achieved that way. Now I personally do not think this is what is going to happen, but it is a legitimate concern that as I understand it isn't really answered or answerable in the literature. Marx was wrong about where the revolution would come from and it is an open question if a society like China's that has gone from an agrarian one to one with a communist government can successfully transition to a communist mode of production. Bel Shazar posted:Our Empire phase is going to be so very much worse than this current "fall of the Republic" phase. The Roman Republic was an empire. Being an empire doesn't nessecitate having an emperor. It's about subject nations. Here is where the analogy breaks down though because America is extremely unlikely to have a 2000 year long empire.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 00:55
|
|
|
The thing is the senatorial slave economy and latifundia did cease, and the lower classes benefited from the move from slavery to feudalism. Dux became Dukes, but they gave people land and a more equitable feudal contract.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 01:11
|
|
|
Weka posted:I think the fall of Rome is a pretty good example of the sort of worry Bill has put forward. Sure, it seems inevitable that the American empire will collapse, but this doesn't mean capitalism will end. At least in the west (where I am more familiar), the societies that came after Rome were a direct continuation of the late Western Roman system of government. Maybe America falls and China continues to use the capitalist mode of production. Obviously in the historical example there were differences in the political economies of Rome and its successor states and there would be in this example too. China will likely continue to exercise strong state control for instance. You can point to the TRPF, but nobody has really tried capitalism armed with marxist economics until now, so who knows what could be achieved that way. Isn't the orthodox view that the classical mode of production (advanced agriculture and trade, widespread slavery, temple as bank and priest/godson as chief) predeceased uninterrupted WRE rule from Rome proper, and Rome as a functioning state in western Europe withering away was a realignment of the superstructure reflecting the actual shift of the base to FF's dux et episcopus? You could also argue that the strong patronage relations that became the namesake of feudalism had already gained a firm foothold by the late Republic, but again I think that just illustrates the dialectic of a previous mode's contradictions leaving it not just pregnant with but actively raising the new.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 01:13
|
|
|
mlmp08 posted:The newest class of aircraft carrier, the Ford, has more room to work with, but also it is brand new and only in 2023 went on an operational worldwide deployment for the first time. And the growth it is waiting on is not a bunch of huge aircraft, it's stuff like the comparatively small MQ-25. The Navy wants to increase the size of carrier air wing in general. https://www.battleorder.org/post/usn-future-cag quote:The Navy also wants to add 5 to 9 MQ-25 Stingray unmanned aerial refuelling aircraft to each Carrier Air Wing. So the Navy wants to add up to 11 aircraft to its carrier air wings. To me that means that the Navy thinks that it can and should fit up 11 aircraft onto the carrier that aren't already there.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 01:27
|
|
|
BearsBearsBears posted:The Navy wants to increase the size of carrier air wing in general. You don't understand. Right now, 60-70 is the Correct number of aircraft. In the future, perhaps 70-80 will once again become Correct. That has nothing to do with number of airframes or crews available or carrier operational deficiencies. It is simply an ineffable change in the nature of what is Correct.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 02:31
|
|
|
BearsBearsBears posted:The Navy wants to increase the size of carrier air wing in general. Yeah, I already posted an article that hinted that the Navy might go to 7x EA-18Gs instead of 5x and also is waiting on the yet unfielded MQ-25s. The video in the youtuber hobbyist site you linked calls out that everything they are guessing is kind of cobbled together and should be taken with a grain of salt, as well. The Navy hasn't really figured out how it wants to configure the Ford yet, as posted up thread. The Navy has indicated that as the Ford comes online, they may seek to increase the number of aircraftt onboard the Ford class, but that such increased numbers might not work on the Nimitz-class. I think that might be what's throwing you off. If we assume that everything posted by that youtuber is correct, then the Navy is considering adding 1x E2-D, and 2x EA-18Gs (still being manufactured and delivered to this day). So three additional aircraft that exist or have active, proven assembly lines. It's true that the Navy would like to put aircraft which do not yet exist and have never before been fielded onto carriers once they exist and have been fielded. This is a bit like telling you that you are currently short on ownership of computers, because you don't yet have whatever new computer you're going to own in 2030, even though you do presumably have a computer right now. Lastly, you omitted the part of the youtube video that says that the carrier air wing plan would reduce its numbers by removing up to 13x helicopters from carriers (this sounds a bit dubious and the youtuber again acknowledges he's kind of guessing and might be wrong or might not understand it clearly). So all told, you found a source from 2022 that warns that they're kind of guessing based on spotty reports, and also the final tally they come up with is that the aircraft onboard the carrier would be somewhere between 68 and 78 aircraft, but they're not sure how correct that is. Did you notice the part about the helicopters in this video? I covered quotes about the new Ford Class and how it might have room to comfortably increase the size of the air wing already, but here you go again: quote:“As Lockheed Martin continues to build, there is potential to go to 20 total [Joint Strike Fighters]” deployed on a single carrier, Whitesell said. “And now we have to decide whether that’s going to be a single squadron or whether it’s going to be two squadrons, or if [Next-Generation Air Dominance] comes along faster, exactly how we’re going to build JSF out.” A future aircraft carrier with future aircraft might have more aircraft on it than the current legacy Nimitz-classes and their legacy aircraft; that's true. Not really clear yet. And the Nimitz complement might change by a small number of airframes. But regardless, you're not really proving some point that Nimitz-class carriers sailing around half empty. Presently, the US Navy is relieved of the statutory requirement to maintain 10 carrier air wings, because there aren't enough carriers for that (so they have 9 carrier air wings). Once the Navy has 12 operational carriers, the Navy will then have to maintain 10 carrier air wings. If you want to argue that the carriers are all busted and hosed up, I dunno, I'd stick to the argument that maybe aircraft carriers aren't/won't be that important in a future war situation or just manning/recruitment shortfalls in general. That's still a lively debate.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 02:32
|
|
|
Mandoric posted:Isn't the orthodox view that the classical mode of production (advanced agriculture and trade, widespread slavery, temple as bank and priest/godson as chief) predeceased uninterrupted WRE rule from Rome proper, and Rome as a functioning state in western Europe withering away was a realignment of the superstructure reflecting the actual shift of the base to FF's dux et episcopus? You could also argue that the strong patronage relations that became the namesake of feudalism had already gained a firm foothold by the late Republic, but again I think that just illustrates the dialectic of a previous mode's contradictions leaving it not just pregnant with but actively raising the new. Yep e: Mlmp, why was there not even a proposal to have a two seater F-35 that could handle these tasks? Or was there, and it was even more of a lemon?
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 02:35
|
|
|
Frosted Flake posted:Yep Probably a mix of “modern avionics make it unnecessary,” argument plus Israel is the major player still demanding two seaters, so who cares what they want? Plus would just add expense to already over budget and poorly run program. The list of new fighters with two seats from around the world: F-15EX (and only kinda new) J-20B (limited numbers) That’s it I think, though I’m probably forgetting one. There are still ongoing builds of two seaters like F-16s and SU-34s, but single seat is starting to take over design the world over.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 02:54
|
|
|
Weka posted:Maybe America falls and China continues to use the capitalist mode of production. China already isn't using the capitalist mode of production?
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 02:58
|
|
|
Skaffen-Amtiskaw posted:Capital would have to have internal reflection as to what their long term chances are, and, well, lol on that front. It's about as likely as any other civilisation witnessing overshoot and not connecting the dots to avoid collapse. "I know, let's invest in giant stone heads!" I understand your metaphor but just want to note that it's largely understood that the Easter Island civilization collapse was due to good ol fashioned explorers and colonialism.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 03:18
|
|
|
BearsBearsBears posted:Should the token become tapped if the original card is tapped? Right now it doesn't. nah also 
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 04:13
|
|
|
The Oldest Man posted:nah incredible
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 04:16
|
|
|
also, sorry to pile on, but Weka posted:but nobody has really tried capitalism armed with marxist economics until now, so who knows what could be achieved that way. Wouldn't this at least be very close to the inverted-Hegelianism-without-Marx school of Historicism, and wasn't that near and dear to the academy of especially Japan from around the Restoration until very late Showa? I'd argue that it's been tried, and found very successful in the moment but unable to extricate itself from the temptation of TRPF-driven financialization.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 04:40
|
|
|
Lord Humungous and his road gang of marauders approach rapidly on the abandoned highway. I stand up and start waving my arms, calling out to him: "Um excuse me sir, excuse me, but I think we need to adopt a new economic model." The lead war-wagon does not slow down and barely notices the slight bump.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 04:51
|
|
|
Weka posted:The Roman Republic was an empire. Being an empire doesn't nessecitate having an emperor. It's about subject nations. Here is where the analogy breaks down though because America is extremely unlikely to have a 2000 year long empire. I think Russian Empire is probably a better analogy of a state brought down in a very short period of time by the heightening of unresolved economic contradictions and an elite that was just fully rotted out and unable to cope with the aftermath of the changes that put them at the top but tbh you don't really need an analogy or grand unified theory of political economy to predict the future of America because at this point it seems pretty locked in unless really wild stuff starts happening politically, China accidentally Chernobyls itself fifty times, something along those lines.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 05:01
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/RedPrecariat/status/1749792286534168637quote:This is all that was said about what China's doing in this article about fixing American industrial policy. the mind palace of the neoliberal is their hotel california; they can only ever interpret economic activity through the lens of money and they can never advance beyond money
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 05:02
|
|
|
Danann posted:https://twitter.com/RedPrecariat/status/1749792286534168637 if finance capitalism sucks rear end then why am i paid high six figgies to poo poo-talk China under it? HUH?
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 05:11
|
|
|
Weka posted:Marx was wrong about where the revolution would come from and it is an open question if a society like China's that has gone from an agrarian one to one with a communist government can successfully transition to a communist mode of production. Bit of a nit-pick, but I'd argue this isn't really accurate. He wasn't exactly a perfect prophet, but he writes about the overthrow of imperialist domination of Ireland as a necessary precondition to revolution in England, and even all the way back in the Manifesto, he speculates that a communist revolution might be particularly likely to break out in Germany, precisely because it was less developed than France or Britain.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 05:53
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 05:55
|
|
|
BillsPhoenix posted:Rome basically always comes up when talking about the demise of America, but there's tens of thousands of cultures and countries that no longer exist. lmfao JAY ZERO SUM GAME posted:this one weird trick marx hates
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 05:57
|
|
|
the protagonists of history (which is over)
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 06:00
|
|
|
Every day I am deeply suspicious that the sun will rise. If this continues I may start to suspect a pattern. I may even start a local action committee to discuss, after we resove issues related to this year's village flower festival. Mrs Hargraves petunias won first place last year and I'll be darned if I let that old hag win again this year! Respectfully, your local brain trust.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 06:26
|
|
|
Pomeroy posted:Bit of a nit-pick, but I'd argue this isn't really accurate. He wasn't exactly a perfect prophet, but he writes about the overthrow of imperialist domination of Ireland as a necessary precondition to revolution in England, and even all the way back in the Manifesto, he speculates that a communist revolution might be particularly likely to break out in Germany, precisely because it was less developed than France or Britain. The latter could've happened tho
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 07:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 12:24 |
|
|
Mandoric posted:also, sorry to pile on, but I did post about that earlier somewhere (thread convergence is real) Japan got seriously engaged with Marxism and imho has one of the richest traditions of the field (the Japanese translation of the complete works of Marx-Engels was the second but might've been the first); they took it further than the Germans that they first got in contact with because they didn't have the prejudices about the our fella and actually caught traction not just with the labor movement, but with many conservative and imperialist modernizers as well. Marx didn't face an ideological refutation in Japan, like what the anglo establishment tried to do with the Austrian school, the critique of political economy was accepted as something that had to be dealt with. And, well, that seems to have contributed a lot towards making Japanese fascism utterly loving psychotic (it was heavily weaponized into being so it could cripple and assimilate the labor movement). Not only Marxism survived, it still faced the Red Purge from the USA and even so, the Communist Party of Japan somehow still exists. It remains the oldest active there and holy loving poo poo and also one of the largest legit old school Comintern parties of the world. It's a miracle (and has a lot to do with that Marxist tradition) e: btw because this happened like last week, the JCP is now headed by a chairwoman and I feel that it is a pretty solid w dead gay comedy forums has issued a correction as of 07:50 on Jan 24, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 07:44
|
|