|
I've been to Cooperstown twice in my life: Once for the weekend where Ryne Sandberg and Wade Boggs got inducted and again about 2 years ago while pushing my dad in his wheelchair through it and learning as much about Lou Gehrig as possible. It's one of the few museums where you can actually see everything in one day. Going on induction weekend was very crowded, but it was nuts how often you'd be walking along and just see random Hall of Famers out in public. I saw Dave Winfield, Yogi Berra, and Rollie Fingers just out and about on the streets of Cooperstown. Dave Winfield is hard to miss. The guy is built like a brick shithouse. Also, I'm glad the Cubs didn't sign Hoskins because it means they're still in the hunt for Belli. 
Kevlar v2.0 fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Jan 24, 2024 |
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 19:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 14:20 |
|
|
Hoskins is fun to watch and root for you You will like him. Where ever he went
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 19:05
|
|
|
Wait until y'all see what Sabathia did in his thirties. You'll change your tune, quick.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 19:09
|
|
|
Sabathia doesn't really have the peak you'd expect from a HOF guy and feels more like a "he stuck around long enough to pad stats" type who'd be borderline in a normal situation, but also he was a popular Yankee so he's a shoe-in first ballot entry.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 19:09
|
|
|
His peak when he had the one year in Milwaukee was def HOF level. Like he was as good as Joe mauer or jim rice for sure
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 19:10
|
|
|
Sabathia stinks by the only metric that matters to me: do I like him? I do not. Sorry bud, no hall for you.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 19:11
|
|
|
Shinjobi posted:Sabathia stinks by the only metric that matters to me: do I like him? I do not. Sorry bud, no hall for you. Congratulations you have exactly what it takes to be a real BBWAA voter!
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 19:13
|
|
|
I once personally saw C.C. Sabathia get a pinch hit single during a 15 inning game that also had a rain delay. Good enough for me to check that box.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 19:14
|
|
|
I've been wanting to go to cooperstown for years but it's such a pain in the rear end to get to. It's about a 6 hour drive for me and that's not including any possible border delays.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 19:15
|
|
|
I really don't get these "oh I dunno" takes on Sabathia. Again I must emphasize how much of a lock 3000 strikeouts is:bawfuls posted:Complete list of pitchers with 3000+ strikeouts who are not in the Hall of Fame: Sabathia is an absolute lock. Sydin posted:Sabathia doesn't really have the peak you'd expect from a HOF guy and feels more like a "he stuck around long enough to pad stats" type who'd be borderline in a normal situation, but also he was a popular Yankee so he's a shoe-in first ballot entry. bawfuls fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Jan 24, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 19:28
|
|
|
Pete Rose had 83.3 WAR through age 40 and 0.0 WAR during his hanging around to catch Cobb phase. He isn't quite at the Rickey Henderson "his Home and Road statlines make two Hall of Famers" level but he was a no questions asked first ballot guy if he'd retired in 1981 to pursue gambling full time.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 19:37
|
|
|
Shinjobi posted:Sabathia stinks by the only metric that matters to me: do I like him? I do not. Sorry bud, no hall for you. How the heck do you not think CC rules, he rules.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 19:39
|
|
|
bawfuls posted:The thing about this is it's pretty hard to be an undeserving "compiler" type while still clearing 60 WAR. Harold Baines has a lot of hits because he stuck around forever, but he's also got less than 40 WAR which is why he's the kind of compiler you're describing here and why people think he was a terrible selection (once again a committee fail). You can stick around while being a sub-replacement level player to pad stats like Strikeouts or Hits (hello, Pete Rose) but doing so degrades your WAR. Sabathia was never sub-replacement level at the end though (his only negative WAR season was an injury-plagued 46 IP one at 33) I agree that in terms of counting stats Sabathia checks the boxes and would get in. >60 WAR, >250 W's, >3000 K's, >3000 IP. My point was more that I think he'll easily coast in on the first ballot because of his national presence vs a hypothetical pitcher with a similar career who played most of it on like, the Royals or similar who'd probably slum it on the ballot for a bit until some of the smaller hall guys came around. Sabathia stuck around a long time, aged well, and racked up the stats but he never had a 5-10 year period where I'd comfortably say yeah, he's the best/one of the best pitchers in the game, which is something I'd normally associate with locked in first ballot guys. Again I'm not saying he's undeserving though, just feels more like a 6th or 7th ballot type.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 19:43
|
|
|
Eric the Mauve posted:Pete Rose had 83.3 WAR through age 40 and 0.0 WAR during his hanging around to catch Cobb phase. I don't know if there's an example of a guy who did that and in the process pulled his WAR below 60 after being above it previously. Pujols famously pulled his WAR below 100 but then managed to get back up with that farewell tour in St Louis.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 19:43
|
|
|
Inspector_666 posted:How the heck do you not think CC rules, he rules. Seriously.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 19:44
|
|
|
Sydin posted:Again I'm not saying he's undeserving though, just feels more like a 6th or 7th ballot type. This doesn't actually mean anything unless you think there are 10 better deserving candidates for the next 7 years though. Being in the hall is a binary thing. In our quest to rail against the voters we just become them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 19:45
|
|
|
Inspector_666 posted:This doesn't actually mean anything unless you think there are 10 better deserving candidates for the next 7 years though. Being in the hall is a binary thing. That's just not the reality of how the voters treat it though. Yeah if everybody actually used all ten of their slots each year then what ballot you got in on would have a much different meaning, but instead lots of voters are extremely selective and will hold off voting for somebody for years until eventually checking the box as a way of expressing their opinion about the player. This is extremely dumb, but that is how it's being done.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 19:47
|
|
|
Sydin posted:I agree that in terms of counting stats Sabathia checks the boxes and would get in. >60 WAR, >250 W's, >3000 K's, >3000 IP. My point was more that I think he'll easily coast in on the first ballot because of his national presence vs a hypothetical pitcher with a similar career who played most of it on like, the Royals or similar who'd probably slum it on the ballot for a bit until some of the smaller hall guys came around. Sabathia stuck around a long time, aged well, and racked up the stats but he never had a 5-10 year period where I'd comfortably say yeah, he's the best/one of the best pitchers in the game, which is something I'd normally associate with locked in first ballot guys. Again I'm not saying he's undeserving though, just feels more like a 6th or 7th ballot type. I'd say that qualifies for what you're describing.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 19:48
|
|
|
Sydin posted:That's just not the reality of how the voters treat it though. Yeah if everybody actually used all ten of their slots each year then what ballot you got in on would have a much different meaning, but instead lots of voters are extremely selective and will hold off voting for somebody for years until eventually checking the box as a way of expressing their opinion about the player. This is extremely dumb, but that is how it's being done. Ok so if it's so dumb why are you doing the same thing? It sounds like you're saying he doesn't deserve to get in until the 6th or 7th ballot, or do you mean you just don't think he'll get in until then?
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 19:50
|
|
|
I am not mad about the idea of CC in the HOF, but it also doesn't thrill me at all and I honestly can't even explain why
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 19:53
|
|
|
There is honestly no rhyme or reasons as to who is getting in on what ballot.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 19:56
|
|
|
CC Sabathia once farted out a Spider Man on national TV and if that's not HoF worthy then what are we even doing anymore.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 19:57
|
|
|
I understand 1000000000 million years ago making the writers responsible for this was a good idea for publicity back when everyone read a morning and evening paper and also magazines but that isn’t today. Just move it over to a a committee like the nba or nfl and move on. Sorry for venting I care about the HOF
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 19:58
|
|
|
Inspector_666 posted:Ok so if it's so dumb why are you doing the same thing? It sounds like you're saying he doesn't deserve to get in until the 6th or 7th ballot, or do you mean you just don't think he'll get in until then? What I was trying to say from the start - and apparently did not phrase well - is that I *think* he will get in on the first ballot easily, largely due to the national profile he had as a player, and that without that profile he'd be viewed by the voters as closer to a borderline guy because he had a weaker peak than you'd normally associate with a locked in Hall guy and resultingly drift on the ballot for multiple years before support coalesced. I outlined my personal high level Hall requirements previously in the thread and by those metrics I'd be voting for him on the first ballot unless it was absolutely stacked and there were 10 guys on there who I felt were stronger, but I'm also nowhere near how the average hall voter operates: Sydin posted:My extremely lazy rule of thumb for the Hall is: bawfuls posted:From 2006 to 2012 Sabathia was second only to Halladay in fWAR, just ahead of Verlander, Felix, and Lee. I don't have a Stathead sub so I can't check bWAR but he had a 140 ERA+ across nearly 1600 innings in that 7 year span, and finished top-5 in the Cy Young (including one win) in 6 of those 7 years so I'd be shocked if he wasn't right up there. With the caveat that I really only paid passing attention to the AL during that period, I still never really considered Sabathia a one of the best pitchers around. Very good, but there was pretty much always 5-10 guys I'd take ahead of him. I similarly can't do the bwar thing but his HOF monitor seems to agree with me on this in that his best 7-year peak was ~10 WAR short of what the average HOF pitcher brings, but again he made up for that with longevity.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 19:58
|
|
|
Here's maybe a better illustration of the argument that Sabathia didn't have a super compelling peak to some people, WAR7 i.e. the best 7 years of a career by WAR, regardless of when they occured: Verlander - 50.2 Halladay - 50.6 Greinke - 48.4 Johan - 45.0 Oswalt - 40.2 Lee - 39.7 CC - 39.4 Felix - 38.5 Hamels - 37.4 Sabathia is on the lower end of this range among his contemporaries. But he also beats everyone here in total WAR except for Verlander, Greinke, and (just barely) Halladay, which is a big part of why his candidacy is safe. If you want to argue that "first ballot" status does or should require a more standout peak and/or career total, that's defensible within the context of caring about who is first-ballot or not. I do think it's a little silly to suggest that during that 06-12 period Sabathia wasn't clearly one of the best pitchers in the game. His trade to Milwaukee was a huge deal as was his signing with the Yankees.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 20:00
|
|
|
Who were you taking ahead of him in 2007-2008
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 20:01
|
|
|
Sydin posted:What I was trying to say from the start - and apparently did not phrase well - is that I *think* he will get in on the first ballot easily, largely due to the national profile he had as a player, and that without that profile he'd be viewed by the voters as closer to a borderline guy because he had a weaker peak than you'd normally associate with a locked in Hall guy and resultingly drift on the ballot for multiple years before support coalesced. Ok, so I was misreading you, sorry.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 20:02
|
|
|
From 2007 to 2011 he averaged 6.1 WAR a season, he was absolutely one of the top guys in the game and had an argument for THE top spot. edit: The only pitcher during this 5 year span with more Cy Young Award shares than Sabathia at 1.84 was Halladay at 2.19. Johan's peak overlapped this but started earlier so you could certainly argue that Sabathia was always the #2 guy at best behind first Johan and then Halladay. bawfuls fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Jan 24, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 20:04
|
|
|
euphronius posted:Who were you taking ahead of him in 2007-2008 Brandon Webb. No he will totally never get injured and keep pitching great for another decade I'm sure
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 20:09
|
|
|
bawfuls posted:If you want to argue that "first ballot" status does or should require a more standout peak and/or career total, that's defensible within the context of caring about who is first-ballot or not. Again I was never arguing in the abstract what is actually worth being first ballot or not. Personally if I was a voter I'd be using my own lazy guide + a little homerism/character clause from time to time and almost always using all 10 of my slots unless it was an extremely weak ballot. The whole idea of intentionally holding off on voting for a guy until later rounds to send some kind of message is supremely stupid. I was opining on the state of voting now, and how guys like Sabathia or Ortiz will/did coast in easily on the back of a large national profile when comparable players who played out their careers in smaller markets and/or without as much national attention can often wallow on the ballot for years. bawfuls posted:edit: The only pitcher during this 5 year span with more Cy Young Award shares than Sabathia at 1.84 was Halladay at 2.19. Johan's peak overlapped this but started earlier so you could certainly argue that Sabathia was always the #2 guy at best behind first Johan and then Halladay. I mean this also gets into the politics of Cy voting, but being utterly uninterested in opening up that can of worms I'll just concede that Sabathia was a better pitcher than I remembered. Inspector_666 posted:Ok, so I was misreading you, sorry. It's all good, in retrospect I probably just shouldn't have posted: HOF chat is pretty heated around these parts and my opinions are at best fairly lukewarm.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 20:13
|
|
|
Sydin posted:It's all good, in retrospect I probably just shouldn't have posted: HOF chat is pretty heated around these parts and my opinions are at best fairly lukewarm. Never stop posting! I just get overly heated when I see people talking about how the voters being dumb means that they need to keep being dumb forever (which wasn't what you were doing but I thought it was.)
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 20:18
|
|
|
The real question about next year: will Ichiro become the second unanimous inductee or will some grumpy old dweeb leave him off for inscrutable reasons? I've seen some people speculate that Utley will get a bump next year when Pedroia and Kinsler join him on the ballot and voters notice how much better than those guys he was.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 20:21
|
|
|
Definitely feels like Ichiro's gonna get racism'd out of a unanimous selection but hopefully not!
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 20:25
|
|
|
Sydin posted:I agree that in terms of counting stats Sabathia checks the boxes and would get in. >60 WAR, >250 W's, >3000 K's, >3000 IP. My point was more that I think he'll easily coast in on the first ballot because of his national presence vs a hypothetical pitcher with a similar career who played most of it on like, the Royals or similar who'd probably slum it on the ballot for a bit until some of the smaller hall guys came around. Sabathia stuck around a long time, aged well, and racked up the stats but he never had a 5-10 year period where I'd comfortably say yeah, he's the best/one of the best pitchers in the game, which is something I'd normally associate with locked in first ballot guys. Again I'm not saying he's undeserving though, just feels more like a 6th or 7th ballot type.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 20:27
|
|
|
Popete posted:They are working on turning the entire museum into the Hall of Cubs Feels like you should be able to get depression without traveling to the middle of New York State if that’s all you’re after
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 20:31
|
|
|
I also think it will help that they haven't voted in a starting pitcher since 2019 (Mussina and Halladay) and there won't be any other guys with a shot coming on to the ballot until one of Greinke/Verlander/Scherzer/Kershaw retire. He'll probably be the only starting pitcher elected in a 10 year period.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 20:33
|
|
|
IcePhoenix posted:CC Sabathia once farted out a Spider Man on national TV and if that's not HoF worthy then what are we even doing anymore. I had no idea what you're talking about so I had to google it. Now I'm laughing so hard I can barely breathe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svXJUmsNvW0
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 20:43
|
|
|
Inspector_666 posted:Never stop posting! wow, an opinion we can all rally behind
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 20:52
|
|
|
Jose Oquendo posted:I had no idea what you're talking about so I had to google it. Now I'm laughing so hard I can barely breathe. Sound effect ruins it for me actually. More pure in its gif form 
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 20:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 14:20 |
|
|
Bregor posted:Sound effect ruins it for me actually. More pure in its gif form Right click, save as.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2024 20:55
|
|