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I think the PIP dicussion has been done to death, but I will say OCCASIONALLY a PIP is recoverable but it's rare. However, yes you should almost certainly start job hunting ASAP when you are on one. There is nothing stopping a company from saying whatever they want, but what they are trying to do is prevent a defamation suit. Defamation has two parts: What is said is not true and what is said did some kind of actual damage. A job referral would qualify the 2nd part, so they usually say "Don't say anything" so you don't accidentally do the first part. However, there's a code here. Usually the trick is "Is the person eligible for rehire?". You can answer Yes or No to that question and if the answer is No it means they were canned. So watch out, if you say "Oh yeah I was laid off" and then I get a "No" answer checking up (I almost never check up, but some places do) then I'm done, since I assume you lied. I don't have great advice but just realize the pluses and minuses of different approaches. Morally, I think you're fine saying you were let go as part of a headcount reduction. Titles: Adjust as needed, but also be careful. If you say you were a director, but then your job had nothing at all related to what a director does, it might hurt you. I've seen people put clarifying titles in their resume with industry standard terms, that might be a decent idea. If you were called a "Director, Alliance Operations - Lead" but really were just a program manager you could put "Director, Alliance Operations - Lead" (Senior Program Manager) It depends on the situation, I'm just tossing out an option if you're trying to make your resume flow better.
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Jan 23, 2024 23:13
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Yeah Ive had jobs before where the actual title was like System Administrator but the role was literally just tier 1 tech support. I still put system administrator on my resume 
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Jan 23, 2024 23:26
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Organic Lube User posted:Yeah Ive had jobs before where the actual title was like System Administrator but the role was literally just tier 1 tech support. Yeah that's ok, it can get screwy when you are doing IC work with a manager title. It can weaken your IC story but mean you're not actually qualified for a management role. However, doing a little title-fu can help especially if you tailor a few resumes for different job types.
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Jan 23, 2024 23:49
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I did title-fu for an older position, since they won't check up on you. Never had HR ask for any references older than my current role. But also I was hired as a Visual Designer and ended up in the end doing more UX/Product work so I felt fine smoothing it out. I also have the work to show for it. My AI resume is really killing it. I've had two reach outs now from cold applying.
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Jan 24, 2024 00:19
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Lockback posted:I think the PIP dicussion has been done to death, but I will say OCCASIONALLY a PIP is recoverable but it's rare. I've seen someone pull the nose up on a PIP too but nobody was happy about it (including them).
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Jan 24, 2024 00:44
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A friend of mine is starting in on, I think, year three of a PIP. He's in the Irish civil service though so good luck firing him for anything short of... gently caress, I dunno. Gross incompetence won't do it. Dude won't take the hint and get a job elsewhere, or accept that he's hit the end of his ladder and needs to coast until retirement 
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Jan 24, 2024 01:27
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Speaking of PIP, I was put on one last year, actually met the insane target they set and found out this morning I've been fired for making an error on one of my accounts. My metrics are all in the green but this one error was what they needed. More importantly, how do I tackle this with my existing job interviews? I'm about to schedule round 2 of my interviews at which point should I bring up that I've been fired?
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Jan 24, 2024 16:14
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Trickortreat posted:Speaking of PIP, I was put on one last year, actually met the insane target they set and found out this morning I've been fired for making an error on one of my accounts. My metrics are all in the green but this one error was what they needed. Don't bring up anything until you have an offer in hand. At which point you'd say how much time you need before you can start, if any. No need to mention any details about your current or even past jobs that could paint you in a negative light.
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Jan 24, 2024 17:26
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Smile, nod, tell them you can start in two weeks, and keep your mouth shut.
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Jan 24, 2024 18:23
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What happens if they run a background check and reach out to my employer? For this job they reached out to my old workplaces to verify my employment.
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Jan 24, 2024 18:39
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Trickortreat posted:Speaking of PIP, I was put on one last year, actually met the insane target they set and found out this morning I've been fired for making an error on one of my accounts. My metrics are all in the green but this one error was what they needed. I wouldn't mention it unless asked but if they do you should tell the truth (or at least don't lie in a way that can be verified). If you think they are going to check with your employer you should tell them but ideally in a final interview before they check. I also feel like you may have a good built in "It got out I was interviewing and I was let go for a routine issue" lie if you need it.
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Jan 24, 2024 19:47
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How do you handle skills/experience picked up in personal projects on your own time, that are relevant to jobs you'd like to apply for but mostly irrelevant to most of the other past roles? Just add details about it alongside the work experience entries?
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Jan 25, 2024 03:45
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:How do you handle skills/experience picked up in personal projects on your own time, that are relevant to jobs you'd like to apply for but mostly irrelevant to most of the other past roles? Just add details about it alongside the work experience entries? Usually a personal projects or separate section of some kind. If it doesnt fit or make the cut, its great to bring up in interviews. If its made more than a few thousand bucks it can go in experience.
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Jan 25, 2024 03:51
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CarForumPoster posted:Usually a personal projects or separate section of some kind. If it doesnt fit or make the cut, its great to bring up in interviews. If its made more than a few thousand bucks it can go in experience. That's about what I guessed, so it makes sense! Didn't consider the "if it made $$$" angle though. Much appreciated!
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Jan 25, 2024 04:32
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:That's about what I guessed, so it makes sense! Didn't consider the "if it made $$$" angle though. Much appreciated! There’s plenty of nuance and exceptions so for tailored advice post the resume. Eg if I was an engineering undergrad I’d put 2 years of working on the school Formula SAE team in experience even though it’s unpaid. It’s highly skilled team volunteer work that is close enough to a job that it crosses the line imo. CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 13:11 on Jan 25, 2024 |
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Jan 25, 2024 13:08
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I was put on a pip once (I worked in CA for a company based in MO and my manager there didn't like my salary or understand timezones, and got mad when I arrived at 9:10 my time) and it was mostly centered around the amount of time I spent in the office: I had to come in earlier and leave later and not take time for lunch, and test 5 tickets a day. He said 'it's 9-6 or 8-5, I've never heard of 9-5 before' which honestly was a shocker to me. I was on a visa at the time and made it clear to them that I intended to fulfill all of the requirements. I fulfilled all of the requirements except for one day I tested 4 tickets instead of 5, because there weren't any more for me to test. I 'defeated' the pip and worked there for about 2-3 more years and even got a positive title change, until a post-acquisition-by-private-investors layoff where I was laid off because I was too expensive due to being in CA. The company shuttered entirely 6 months later. As an aside, the CTO said later on about someone else who had been put on a pip: "she fulfilled the requirements, but we watch them closely AFTER the pip to make sure they don't start slacking again, because everyone does. She did so we fired her" so I made sure that I didn't do that. I also know a guy from Yahoo! about 15 years ago who was pipped, and his pip task was to move a process to hadoop, that an entire eng team had failed to move to hadoop. He did it within a month and defeated the pip and his manager got fired in the end, and he moved to tech support or something. So he kept his job but sort of moved out of engineering. redreader fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Jan 25, 2024 |
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Jan 25, 2024 18:13
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In most such cases, though, it's less effort and more reward to just find another job than to Defeat The PIP (unless you're
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Jan 25, 2024 18:37
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Are You A Bad Enough Dude to Defeat the PIP?
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Jan 25, 2024 18:58
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Yep, I got my green card and collapsed with relief, then was laid off with 2 months !!! severence a month later at that job. I was extremely happy and relaxed and played video games for 2 or 3 months straight, lost weight, exercised, and enjoyed myself. I got a job 7 months after the layoff. In Nov last year I was laid off with NO severence after being told we were all about to get raises and bonuses, and with no warning at all. I've got a wife, kids and house now and I'm feeling a LOT less relaxed about it!
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Jan 25, 2024 19:00
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Eric the Mauve posted:In most such cases, though, it's less effort and more reward to just find another job than to Defeat The PIP (unless you're Generally I'd say do what you can to meet then Pip within your usual work-hours to help stretch things out but realize the deck is almost certainly stacked against you.
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Jan 25, 2024 19:17
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priznat posted:Are You A Bad Enough Dude to Defeat the PIP? Your job has been PIP'd by HR. Are you a bad enough dude to rescue your job?
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Jan 25, 2024 20:02
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Thank you, PIPio! But your job is in another castle!
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Jan 25, 2024 20:16
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The only time I ever got a whiff of being performance managed (my manager was awful and hated me), I found another job and bailed quick smart. My mental health is precarious enough as it is, without adding that nonsense to the mix lol
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Jan 25, 2024 21:21
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I threw an application into an old and established place a couple of months back, and a recruiter had a call with me the week before last after a LinkedIn chat that seemed unrelated. He was on a teambuilding exercise last week so radio silence. I then got a "fill out this Workday poo poo" email out of nowhere and asked the recruiter if it was part of his process or was it a prior application getting actioned late for some reason. Radio silence. Today a recruiter reaches out at 10AM. I send him an email back a bit after 6PM, when I'm finished work. loving automatic reply, out of office until forever. Got shitcanned in the eight hours since emailing me. Guess the rumours about this place circling the drain are true 
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Jan 25, 2024 21:34
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Lockback posted:I wouldn't mention it unless asked but if they do you should tell the truth (or at least don't lie in a way that can be verified). If you think they are going to check with your employer you should tell them but ideally in a final interview before they check. For reference, one of my interviews is supposed to be a 30 minute review of my resume. I guess I should just address the elephant in the room or it could get really awkward if they ask about what I do in my current role seeing as I don't currently have one. "As you are aware, a part of being in a start up is a culture of constant innovation and change. Unfortunately a recent change in leadership led to a decision to make some cuts across the team and I was affected." How does this sound for a rough draft? Trickortreat fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Jan 25, 2024 |
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Jan 25, 2024 22:39
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Maybe the best way to put it. It doesn't sound great.
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Jan 25, 2024 23:36
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Trickortreat posted:For reference, one of my interviews is supposed to be a 30 minute review of my resume. I guess I should just address the elephant in the room or it could get really awkward if they ask about what I do in my current role seeing as I don't currently have one. I hate verbose canned answers.
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Jan 25, 2024 23:38
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I want to trim the fat as much as possible, but I want to communicate that it wasn't due to poor performance or any other reasons that would be a red flag for the new people. New head of the department allowed other departments to cannibalize our responsibilities (the sales team took over initial onboarding and training for example). Almost every week we would undergo changes and new rollouts were handled so poorly often I didn't know about the change until the clients mentioned it to me. HR has been cutting people left and right and I got fired with zero notice. In the past year alone we went from a team of twenty people to six and I strongly suspect my entire team will be dissolved and team members fired or moved to a different department. I want to be careful about avoiding talking about my previous employer in a bad light. Thanks for the feedback. I don't want to give out a canned response. How can I salvage this?
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Jan 26, 2024 00:39
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Trickortreat posted:I want to trim the fat as much as possible, but I want to communicate that it wasn't due to poor performance or any other reasons that would be a red flag for the new people. What happened at your last job? We went from a team of 20 to 6, probably 0 soon, and I was one of those 14. What do you do in your current role? My current role recently became my former role as my team went from 20 to 6, probably 0 soon. That said, I [answer to question]. Why do you think they did that? They want the sales team to have the responsibilities of my team...responsibilities the sales team don't like doing one bit. I am guessing they'll reform the team eventually. CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Jan 26, 2024 |
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Jan 26, 2024 00:40
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Trickortreat posted:I want to trim the fat as much as possible, but I want to communicate that it wasn't due to poor performance or any other reasons that would be a red flag for the new people.
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Jan 26, 2024 02:55
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CarForumPoster posted:What happened at your last job? Yeah, this is a lot better.
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Jan 26, 2024 04:46
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Arquinsiel posted:"The company's requirements changed rapidly, my role was no longer needed, and so we have parted ways". Might it be better to fold in the team shrinking too? To make it clear you were not a single problem child but swept away in a tide? "The company's requirements changed rapidly, our team was hit by a large headcount reduction, and my role was no longer needed".
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Jan 26, 2024 10:34
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Yeah, you are probably right there. Painting it as a team restructuring is the best course.
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Jan 26, 2024 15:03
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"I think I was let go due to the company cutting costs."
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Jan 26, 2024 16:11
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Extra row of tits posted:Forgive the blatant crossposting.. Found out today my twin daughters will be studying at the place I’ll be working if I get this job. God drat I want this job.
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Jan 26, 2024 18:22
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In my second last job I was a senior sdet. In my most recent job I was an sdet, no "senior" because they didn't like giving anyone that title. I have more than fifteen years of experience and in my last job I was doing "senior" level stuff like mentoring and writing test suites by myself from scratch. How dumb or bad would it be to alter my job title at my most recent job on LinkedIn/my resume to "senior sdet" instead of "sdet" (software development engineer in test)? I've got two references from that job and I could probably convince them to say that yes, I was senior. One would for sure and the other might say it if I asked. Edit: a "software engineer" from my last job who has five years of experience, now claims on LinkedIn that he was a "staff software engineer" so other people seem to be doing this. I at least have actually been senior before. redreader fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Jan 26, 2024 |
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Jan 26, 2024 18:58
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Absolutely do it. Check with both references before you hand them out though.
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Jan 26, 2024 19:28
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CarForumPoster posted:What happened at your last job? Self quoting to add some thoughts. I frequently advise ITT to "show but dont tell" and I think this does that well. I want to give insight to the mind of the interviewer here. Candidates that have a job are generally more desirable than ones that dont. Candidates that got fired in the process of applying or have false statements on their resume (i.e. presently work there when they don't) are mild to moderate red flags. That said, a team cannot go from 20 people to 6 people and still have the same capabilities. Without the numbers the "reogranization", "cost cutting", or "requirements changing" might be firing 10% of the 10 person team. ..i.e. you. If you're already a red flag, I'm suspicious of this statement. The numbers show but dont tell a massive change in the scope of that team that would be impossible to pin on the interviewee. Then, the final statement is a "show but dont tell" for "the management is loving things up badly". Forcing account executives to do SDR/Onboarding work is a CLASSIC gently caress up that incompetent managers make. There are few circumstances where this is the right call (highly technical $MM products where the sales team has an engineering degree, for example). By saying that last line you show a keen insight into how your role fit within the sales process and org, insight that not even management has. Youre not blaming them or casting judgement, simply observing what you know about the team that you worked closely with.
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Jan 26, 2024 19:38
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redreader posted:In my second last job I was a senior sdet. In my most recent job I was an sdet, no "senior" because they didn't like giving anyone that title. I have more than fifteen years of experience and in my last job I was doing "senior" level stuff like mentoring and writing test suites by myself from scratch. Yeah, adjusting your title to something that is more industry standard is fine, and in this case it sounds like the standard for what you were doing is senior. Calling yourself a staff engineer when you were just doing CRUD updates and no architecture/team leading/cross-team glue-stuff/etc is a bad idea.
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Jan 26, 2024 19:42
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I'm fascinated by this (I assume) American trend of changing job titles. Or is this an IT thing? I have never changed a job title in a resume, what if they know someone I used to work with? I also can't imagine asking one of my referees to confirm a different job title than I have. Not criticising at all by the way, just genuinely curious (and wondering if I should tweak my old roles 5 + years ago)
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Jan 26, 2024 22:15
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