The US will lose WW3

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > The US will lose WW3

DancingShade: Jul 26, 2007; by Fluffdaddy

Yes but SPGs aren't sexy enough. Far hotter and more lucrative to whack a missile that costs 10 million dollars on a plane that costs half a billion so you can then launch at a two man sandbag pit on a hill somewhere. Did it miss? Oh well, no worries we'll fire another one tomorrow. If the plane hasn't broken down.

# ? Jan 29, 2024 11:17

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# ? May 27, 2024 14:37

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Yeah, the breech projects the gas going in the opposite direction, and usually self-propelled guns have longer barrels (the Msta-S is about 7.2m versus 5.2m on a D-20) which just means the gas is going to be projected that much farther from the crew.

The Russians (specifically the milita units back in the day) used more towed artillery, but they were often used in fortified positions.

# ? Jan 29, 2024 11:18

Megamissen: Jul 19, 2022; any post can be a kannapost
if you want it to be

Cerebral Bore posted:

isn't the other end supposed to be sealed tight by the breech?

its sealed but its still going to slam back from the recoil
that plus the sound waves from the explosion in a small space

# ? Jan 29, 2024 11:23

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

that's not how sound waves work

# ? Jan 29, 2024 11:27

Tankbuster: Oct 1, 2021

I guess artillery usage turns your brain into this.

# ? Jan 29, 2024 11:30

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

The sound as well as the gases will be projected in the other direction because both the barrel and the breech are heavy pieces of steel.

# ? Jan 29, 2024 11:40

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Ardennes posted:

Yeah, the length of the barrel and being armored compared helps a lot, ak lot of it is doctrine. That said, a fair amount of it is specifically the M777 howitzer.

The issue really isn't using the larger calibers that have been around since the First World War, but they tried to jam a medium howitzer into the weight class of basically a field gun. That means a much more aggressive muzzle break, no shield, a shorter barrel, frequent use of red bag charges, shorter lanyards, and usually no trench work, basically doing everything to promote TBIs as aggressively as possible in exchange for a lighter and more easily transportable gun.

It is a clear signal from the politicians to the brass to the average soldier that their livelihood is completely meaningless as tools of the empire.

Light steel is expensive, soldiers are cheap.

# ? Jan 29, 2024 12:30

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

https://twitter.com/NonCRDDefence/status/1751736522435338575?t=jtJIjx62o28qt1wtxkjZMA&s=19

# ? Jan 29, 2024 13:04

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

i have a sneaking suspicion that the most effective form of espionage nowadays is to go trolling on the war thunder forums until some caremad troop starts dropping docs to win an internet argument

# ? Jan 29, 2024 13:15

Jon Pod Van Damm: Apr 6, 2009; THE POSSESSION OF WEALTH IS IN AND OF ITSELF A SIGN OF POOR VIRTUE. AS SUCH:
1 NEVER TRUST ANY RICH PERSON.
2 NEVER HIRE ANY RICH PERSON.
BY RULE 1, IT IS APPROPRIATE TO PRESUME THAT ALL DEGREES AND CREDENTIALS HELD BY A WEALTHY PERSON ARE FRAUDULENT. THIS JUSTIFIES RULE 2--RULE 1 NEEDS NO JUSTIFIC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUrfTtSwzFM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpJFJooRj3w

🫡

# ? Jan 29, 2024 14:59

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

https://twitter.com/De__Havilland/status/1751738010893177040?t=c-gcDwy7Z7P2n2CUyCoUow&s=19

We used to have fun things

# ? Jan 29, 2024 15:02

FirstnameLastname: Jul 10, 2022

ever wonder if putin and xi are doing a very cool team up move to bait the usa into running into ukraine(-munitions -banderites), gaza(-Israel), yemen(-suez, -support), Iran (-fleet), Mexico (-fascists), nato collapse, correcting the greatest of America's geopolitical ills of the last century while giving a lesson on why the capitalist system is simply uncontrolled and bad for international diplomacy before it brings an economic failure and then people's revolutions up from the us, uk, ca, ger, fra, pol, ita, triggering the fall of capitalism and reestablishment of the soviet union, warsaw pact

kinda seems what all the pieces would fit together as in the long run, would be the ultimate flex, Putin said that thing about the ussr, would have a chinese harmony elegance to it, hm, if it occurs you will give me your kulaks

# ? Jan 29, 2024 15:27

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

gradenko_2000 posted:

my understanding is that a lot of this has to do with the way artillery pieces are used and designed. It used to be that a "field gun" [high muzzle velocity, flat trajectory] and a "howitzer" [lower muzzle velocity, high-angle trajectory] were two different things.

a field gun would be 105mm artillery, and a howitzer would be 155mm howitzer, for example

the problem is that, at some point, NATO decided that all artillery should be 155m in order to use the same caliber shell all throughout, while also designed to be a gun-howitzer, or an artillery piece that can act as either a field gun or a howitzer

part of how a field gun manages to achieve its high muzzle velocity is that the calibre is smaller (105mm); a howitzer has a bigger shell (155mm), which means a heavier shell, but that's okay, since the muzzle velocity is expected to be less

but if you're trying to push a 155mm shell into the muzzle velocities demanded by field guns, you need to use much bigger (and more chemically dangerous?) powder charges to squeeze out every last bit of force

when you combine that with:

- artillery pieces also lack gun shields, because gun shields add weight, and you want the piece to be as light as possible for portability, when gun shields are important for protecting the gun crews from shock
- a muzzle brake design that projects more of the force back towards the crews (and all that extra force that has to be dissipated comes from, again, forcing 155mm artillery to act as a gun-howitzer)
- troops that aren't disciplined enough to dig proper firing positions for themselves

and you get artillerists with brain damage

somebody's going to have to dig up specifics, but as far as I know, Russia doesn't design artillery like this, and so doesn't run into quite the same problems (as much)

The other thing is political. They chose to "optimally man" the Marine artillery fighting ISIS because they did not want to make headlines about large formations of US troops being deployed. That meant that there was basically no crew rotation, and things got worse as more and more people dropped out ill.

Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 15:36 on Jan 29, 2024

# ? Jan 29, 2024 15:32

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

You can�t have TBI if you just never test for it, which I guess was the plan until the year 2000 or so worldwide and is still the plan in a lot of places.

Probably one of those dumb roman statue twitter accounts is legit upset that we don�t go back to the good old days of undiagnosed brain trauma.

# ? Jan 29, 2024 15:41

Butter Activities: May 4, 2018

Frosted Flake posted:

The other thing is political. They chose to "optimally man" the Marine artillery fighting ISIS because they did not want to make headlines about large formations of US troops being deployed. That meant that there was basically no crew rotation, and things got worse as more and more people dropped out ill.

I got to experience firsthand the joys of life in the surface fleet during the US Navy optimal manning program, it
was
awesome

# ? Jan 29, 2024 15:43

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

mlmp08 posted:

You can�t have TBI if you just never test for it, which I guess was the plan until the year 2000 or so worldwide and is still the plan in a lot of places.

Probably one of those dumb roman statue twitter accounts is legit upset that we don�t go back to the good old days of undiagnosed brain trauma.

I've gone back and forth on this, and made that argument to the discharge board, but I've been around the guys who "had their bells rung" in Cyprus and Bosnia, or worked with their kids, and obviously the injuries were still there, just filtered through a different culture of injury and "treated" mostly with alcohol.

I would imagine if you go back and look at football and hockey players and boxers, you'll see the same thing. Leaving injuries completely untreated made them much worse, obviously, even if they were understood as personality quirks or whatever.

# ? Jan 29, 2024 15:46

Hatebag: Jun 17, 2008

SMEGMA_MAIL posted:

I got to experience firsthand the joys of life in the surface fleet during the US Navy optimal manning program, it
was
awesome

lol at the john mccain crashing

# ? Jan 29, 2024 15:50

Butter Activities: May 4, 2018

Hatebag posted:

lol at the john mccain crashing

The US Navy respects its most sacred tradition o7

# ? Jan 29, 2024 16:21

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

Hatebag posted:

lol at the john mccain crashing

nomen est omen

# ? Jan 29, 2024 16:32

stephenthinkpad: Jan 2, 2020

John Mccain had to be towed back like a bitch.

Only registered members can see post attachments!

# ? Jan 29, 2024 16:44

Best Friends: Nov 4, 2011

the standard American 155mm cannon that the m777 replaced, the m198, had basically the same tube and muzzle break, exact same lanyard, and same procedures around digging trenches. i think tbi stuff just was not a concern until recently, as modern tbi concern was kicked off by the iraq and Afghanistan occupation wave of IED injuries (and probably the wave of nfl player CTE awareness happening at the same time). I had no idea whatsoever that you could even get a tbi from firing artillery until I saw ff post about that here, and within a year or so of that the NYTimes articles on it came out.

# ? Jan 29, 2024 16:44

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

It was also designed to be a lightweight gun, though weighed something like 40% more and did not often use red bags.

Same problems caused by the muzzle brake though.

# ? Jan 29, 2024 16:55

cat botherer: Jan 6, 2022; I am interested in most phases of data processing.

stephenthinkpad posted:

John Mccain had to be towed back like a bitch.

seems like naming a ship after a dude famous for crashing would not be a good move

# ? Jan 29, 2024 16:59

mycomancy: Oct 16, 2016

cat botherer posted:

seems like naming a ship after a dude famous for crashing would not be a good move

Fun fact: Launchpad McQuack is actually based on John McCain.

# ? Jan 29, 2024 17:01

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

It�s amazing that the Dems let Kerry get swift boated, but couldn�t bring themselves to point out that McCain remained on flying status because his old man was an admiral.

# ? Jan 29, 2024 17:03

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Yeah really wonder why the failchildren didn't point out the load-bearing nepotism of the state.

# ? Jan 29, 2024 17:05

Cindy the SKULL: Nov 27, 2023; by Athanatos
(and can't post for 10 years!)

ok so can you kill a T-72 with a bushmaster bradley autocannon?

# ? Jan 29, 2024 17:06

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Cindy the SKULL posted:

ok so can you kill a T-72 with a bushmaster bradley autocannon?

Yes, but it would be a hell of a lot easier to do with a purpose built anti-tank weapon like a tank cannon, ATGM, AT mine, maverick, hellfire, etc.

Just because you can doesn�t mean it�s optimal.

It's not an academic question, really. It has been done in combat on numerous occasions, but usually this is ignored as "well, that crew just sucked" and/or "they had a version that was deliberately made to be very lovely by the manufacturer, so it doesn't actually count, but please buy more of these versions."

mlmp08 has issued a correction as of 17:40 on Jan 29, 2024

# ? Jan 29, 2024 17:28

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Best Friends posted:

the standard American 155mm cannon that the m777 replaced, the m198, had basically the same tube and muzzle break, exact same lanyard, and same procedures around digging trenches. i think tbi stuff just was not a concern until recently, as modern tbi concern was kicked off by the iraq and Afghanistan occupation wave of IED injuries (and probably the wave of nfl player CTE awareness happening at the same time). I had no idea whatsoever that you could even get a tbi from firing artillery until I saw ff post about that here, and within a year or so of that the NYTimes articles on it came out.

The m198 had a barrel a good meter shorter as well. I am sure plenty of TBIs occurred with the m198, but the M777, with a shorter barrel/red bag charges is just going to make the situation much worse, especially the charges. It very likely isn't just because the army was now "looking for it" because there is clearly now less men able to work the guns.

# ? Jan 29, 2024 17:34

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Cindy the SKULL posted:

ok so can you kill a T-72 with a bushmaster bradley autocannon?

You can hit the ERA around the the driver's sight and get the tank stuck.

# ? Jan 29, 2024 17:36

TeenageArchipelago: Jul 23, 2013

https://aje.io/d5c2x5?update=2658943

quote:

US forces failed to stop attack after �confusion� about drone: Report

US forces failed to identify the deadly drone attack near the borders of Jordan, Syria and Iraq because there was an American drone returning to the base at the same time of the incident, the Wall Street Journal reported, citing US officials.

The US drone�s return �led to some confusion� about the nature of the enemy drone, the officials said.

The Biden administration has blamed Iran-backed Iraqi groups for the attack, but a defence official told the Wall Street Journal that Washington has not found evidence that Tehran directed the attack.

# ? Jan 29, 2024 17:40

GlassEye-Boy: Jul 12, 2001

TeenageArchipelago posted:

https://aje.io/d5c2x5?update=2658943

Iran-backed Houthi�s, Iran backed militia, Iran back Iraqis, Iran-backed IJC?

# ? Jan 29, 2024 17:43

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

GlassEye-Boy posted:

Iran-backed IJC?

clearly the "I" stands for Iran

# ? Jan 29, 2024 17:46

Sancho Banana: Aug 4, 2023; Not to be confused with meat.

Iran-backed Iranian civilians

# ? Jan 29, 2024 17:52

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

GlassEye-Boy posted:

Iran-backed Houthi�s, Iran backed militia, Iran back Iraqis, Iran-backed IJC?

Am I Iran-backed?

# ? Jan 29, 2024 18:13

Owlbear Camus: Jan 3, 2013; Maybe this guy that flies is just sort of passing through, you know?

Cerebral Bore posted:

i have a sneaking suspicion that the most effective form of espionage nowadays is to go trolling on the war thunder forums until some caremad troop starts dropping docs to win an internet argument

it's hilarious to me that what used to at least require Aksana honey potting a nato officer with some sloppy toppy and turning the pillow talk to state secrets or boris handing off a briefcase full of cash can now be accomplished by going on a video game discord and speculating incorrectly about the other side's materiel implicitly inviting someone to get internet points by correcting you

# ? Jan 29, 2024 18:34

JAY ZERO SUM GAME: Oct 18, 2005; Walter.
I know you know how to do this.
Get up.

Frosted Flake posted:

It was also designed to be a lightweight gun, though weighed something like 40% more and did not often use red bags.

Same problems caused by the muzzle brake though.

so the guy on the right, putting his finger in his ears standing 15 feet from the muzzle, that�s cool right

# ? Jan 29, 2024 18:43

Skaffen-Amtiskaw: Jun 24, 2023

SMEGMA_MAIL posted:

I got to experience firsthand the joys of life in the surface fleet during the US Navy optimal manning program, it
was
awesome

Thank you for your service. :fsmug:

# ? Jan 29, 2024 18:43

Real hurthling!: Sep 11, 2001

artillery clinton

# ? Jan 29, 2024 18:45

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# ? May 27, 2024 14:37

GlassEye-Boy: Jul 12, 2001

JAY ZERO SUM GAME posted:

so the guy on the right, putting his finger in his ears standing 15 feet from the muzzle, that�s cool right

in civilized countries they would issue them with hearing protection.

PLA used to be criticized for not issuing hearing protection, but they�ve updated their procedure. Not sure why the US is moving backwards.

GlassEye-Boy has issued a correction as of 18:59 on Jan 29, 2024

# ? Jan 29, 2024 18:46

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