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also what does "very old hardware" mean like older than 11th generation intel or like atom N2800 netbooks with 1366x768 screens or the absolute weirdos still trying to run linux on 32-bit x86 CPUs without the CMOV instruction
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Jan 29, 2024 22:26
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Beeftweeter posted:so how come this can't use the mesa implementation of vulkan while using the nvidia poo poo for whatever else (proprietary crap i guess? wayland supports vulkan, so...) mesa doesn't have a vulkan implementation, it has several different vulkan implementations for several different hardware devices, one of which is nvk. vulkan has very little in the way of common infrastructure, it is a thin layer that translates between the hardware-agnostic and the hardware-specific. nvk is already using what little common infrastructure it does have (mostly related to e.g. memory management of CPU-side objects and the shader compiler front end).
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Jan 29, 2024 22:59
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akadajet posted:sounds like a waste of time you'd probably say the same about radv when it was a novelty rendering 1 triangle at 3fps or whatever. now it's better than amd's own drivers, and runs many windows games better than amd's actual windows drivers nvk running real software at playable speeds in an alpha state is amazing, especially considering that it has yet to have any real optimization work done on it
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Jan 30, 2024 00:35
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pseudorandom name posted:mesa doesn't have a vulkan implementation, it has several different vulkan implementations for several different hardware devices, one of which is nvk. so what gets installed with a mesa-vulkan-loader package or something like that (i'm using ios right now and don't specifically remember what the packages are called)? some llvmpipe implementation? reading this i realized i've never actually bothered to check
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Jan 30, 2024 00:56
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Beeftweeter posted:so what gets installed with a mesa-vulkan-loader package or something like that (i'm using ios right now and don't specifically remember what the packages are called)? some llvmpipe implementation? reading this i realized i've never actually bothered to check the vulkan loader is just a shim that redirects the calls to the underlying driver, and maybe loads some layers if needed (validation, debug, etc…)
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Jan 30, 2024 01:02
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regarding the gtk thing, drawing bezier curves using a machine that executes programs across the pixels inside a triangle is a rather square-peg-in-round-hole situation. web browsers have similar code inside them, but they have orders of magnitude greater developer resources than gtk has.
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Jan 30, 2024 01:07
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Sapozhnik posted:regarding the gtk thing, drawing bezier curves using a machine that executes programs across the pixels inside a triangle is a rather square-peg-in-round-hole situation. web browsers have similar code inside them, but they have orders of magnitude greater developer resources than gtk has. a postscript printer from like 1986 also has code in it that draws bezier curves without using pixels
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Jan 30, 2024 01:16
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The_Franz posted:now it's better than amd's own drivers, and runs many windows games better than amd's actual windows drivers amd lol. was that ever really a high bar?
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Jan 30, 2024 01:48
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Beeftweeter posted:so wouldn't this make this ngl renderer much slower on older hardware? why is it everything in the graphics stack of linux is magic env variables for configuration all the way down why cant we just have some loving files in etc
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Jan 30, 2024 03:03
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Mr. Crow posted:why is it everything in the graphics stack of linux is magic env variables for configuration all the way down why cant we just have some loving files in etc i give you /etc/environment
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Jan 30, 2024 03:05
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outhole surfer posted:i give you /etc/environment i can't lookup the values or defaults or explanation of any of it in that file
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Jan 30, 2024 03:08
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outhole surfer posted:i give you /etc/environment why am i just learning about this now
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Jan 30, 2024 03:17
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btw that ngl opengl renderer is now the default on all nightly builds of gtk 4 lol maybe we'll find out what older hardware means pretty quickly
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Jan 30, 2024 03:19
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akadajet posted:amd lol. was that ever really a high bar? Not sure what you're on about - AMD's stack is fine in Windows, and it's not like the cards aren't competitive. Plus, NVidia doesn't get money when you buy them 
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Jan 30, 2024 03:44
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Beeftweeter posted:so what gets installed with a mesa-vulkan-loader package or something like that (i'm using ios right now and don't specifically remember what the packages are called)? some llvmpipe implementation? reading this i realized i've never actually bothered to check vulkan-loader or whatever your distro calls it is https://github.com/KhronosGroup/Vulkan-Loader, a vendor-neutral library unrelated to Mesa that parses JSON config files in a couple of well known locations that list installed Vulkan drivers and Vulkan layers, which is basically an official hooking mechanism blessed by Khronos. mesa-vulkan-drivers or whatever your distro calls it includes the various different Vulkan drivers included in the Mesa project and their Vulkan Loader JSON configuration files. this does include a particularly weird Vulkan driver called lavapipe that's actually built on top of gallium and llvmpipe, but that's a pure-software Vulkan implementation. no other Vulkan driver uses Gallium because it isn't remotely suited to implementing Vulkan. (There's actually a Gallium driver called Zink which is implemented on top of Vulkan.) I think part of your confusion may be Mesa-the-project vs. Mesa-the-OpenGL-implementation, Mesa-the-project includes several Vulkan drivers but very little of Mesa-the-OpenGL-implementation gets shared with the Vulkan drivers and consequently very little gets shared between the various different Vulkan drivers.
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Jan 30, 2024 05:36
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i use a pure romulan graphics stack
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Jan 30, 2024 05:39
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Mr. Crow posted:why is it everything in the graphics stack of linux is magic env variables for configuration all the way down why cant we just have some loving files in etc Lots of things are environment variables. That's just the predominant way of configuring things and always has been. See also: /etc/default/, those files are typically sourced to form the environment of the daemon, even if the daemon has a dedicated configuration file. code:
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Jan 30, 2024 10:34
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Antigravitas posted:Lots of things are environment variables. That's just the predominant way of configuring things and always has been. the point is not that they use environment variables its that it's not documented anywhere, except in this one blog about this new feature they added. or maybe it's in the readme for the source code if you're lucky. and on the right branch. and in the maintained project. https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man1/ssh.1.html#ENVIRONMENT https://www.man7.org/linux/man-pages/man5/ssh_config.5.html#ENVIRONMENT_VARIABLES see the difference?
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Jan 30, 2024 21:07
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https://docs.gtk.org/gsk4/?q=GSK_RENDERER lol
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Jan 30, 2024 21:13
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Mr. Crow posted:the point is not that they use environment variables its that it's not documented anywhere, the only linux i have immediately available to me is iSH/alpine on ios, but `cat /etc/environment` outputs this code:
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Jan 30, 2024 21:23
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Mr. Crow posted:the point is not that they use environment variables its that it's not documented anywhere, except in this one blog about this new feature they added. or maybe it's in the readme for the source code if you're lucky. and on the right branch. and in the maintained project. Oh, you mean GTK? That's just Gnome for you.
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Jan 30, 2024 21:32
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Mr. Crow posted:why is it everything in the graphics stack of linux is magic env variables for configuration all the way down why cant we just have some loving files in etc its not end-user configuration, it's a development override, and it's documented in the gsk_renderer_new_for_surface page
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Jan 30, 2024 21:48
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pseudorandom name posted:its not end-user configuration, it's a development override, and it's documented in the gsk_renderer_new_for_surface page exactly
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Jan 30, 2024 21:54
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it's a pre-release feature that's still in testing, so it's not going to be prominently documented since it is intended for use by developers at the moment. there are plenty of other obtuse hidden configuration things in linux to complain about, like fontconfig, or polkit. want to mount this random flash drive you found in the parking lot? sure, no problem buddy. want to mount an encrypted volume? whoa there friend i'm going to need you to enter your account password (no, not the volume passphrase, you need your account password as well) to authorize that. want to change that behavior? simple, you merely need to write a supplementary authorization policy in javascript to automatically authorize this particular action code. why yes i did just tell you to go gently caress yourself.
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Jan 30, 2024 21:59
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Polkit is a distro maintainer thing though, and they usually map common sets of actions to groups. You really aren't supposed to gently caress with polkit directly unless you are basically a distro maintainer (that's me  ). Like with udev rules, you aren't touching them unless you are the janitor.
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Jan 30, 2024 22:03
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Visions of Valerie posted:Not sure what you're on about - AMD's stack is fine in Windows, and it's not like the cards aren't competitive. Plus, NVidia doesn't get money when you buy them can't hear you over the sound of my 4090
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Jan 30, 2024 22:56
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normal users will absolutely be touching udev at some point its not "just for maintainers"  like half the usb devices i use ive had to muck around with udev for one reason or another
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Jan 31, 2024 00:27
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i've been having to gently caress around with udev a lot lately actually lol it doesn't work correctly on iSH (an ios app that uses a x86 interpreter to run alpine; it's faster than you'd expect), and since so many services depend on it i've been trying to hack my way into using busybox's mdev as a replacement. and, of course, without much success, since it's very lacking in comparison and yeah i realize the solution is to just wait for udev to work properly on iSH (if it ever does), but meh it's been a pretty educational experience
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Jan 31, 2024 02:49
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Mr. Crow posted:normal users will absolutely be touching udev at some point its not "just for maintainers" to do what?
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Jan 31, 2024 02:56
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pseudorandom name posted:to do what? if your using any sort of joystick or wireless controller or headset you are probably touching udev
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Jan 31, 2024 03:23
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yubikeys you had to mess with udev for a while; though i dont think you do anymore
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Jan 31, 2024 03:24
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"using a computer"
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Jan 31, 2024 03:24
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Mr. Crow posted:normal users will absolutely be touching udev at some point its not "just for maintainers" normal users don't have to touch udev any more than they need to touch the windows registry probably less so, because normal users aren't going to be messing with linux
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Jan 31, 2024 03:31
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do you use a hobbiest distro made by teenagers? none of that requires touching udev
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Jan 31, 2024 03:37
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hell even if you do kde, gnome and even wine support pairing controllers without having to configure anything
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Jan 31, 2024 03:50
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pseudorandom name posted:to do what? gyro data is not exposed by default from playstation 3 and 4 controllers. (Steam is using its own driver, IIRC.) systemd issue, but no way in hell am I talking to them: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/17691 kernel commit loving it all up: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/20ac95d52a28f55472a54cc751eeec49fd445cb1
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Jan 31, 2024 03:53
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hmm i wonder if reactos's explorer would run under wine. it'd be cool to use as a desktop manager (although just running it under wine obviously would not automatically make it a desktop manager) the last time i tried it, it was pretty win2k-like and would probably feel better to use than a theme
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Jan 31, 2024 03:55
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linux probably needs to borrow windows' concept of "top-level collections" otherwise there will always be udev problems with input devices. to reiterate a previous post i made itt, there is no such thing as a "usb keyboard" or a "usb mouse", just a device that implements usb hid (which might not even be connected over usb for that matter, it might connect via bluetooth or even i2c). this is a problem because you don't want random processes to be able to read passwords from keyboards, but you do want random games to be able to read from game controllers. so the official udev rules have to keep playing whack-a-mole with an allowlist of safely-readable usb hid products. even on the latest versions of fedora you still have to install udev rules to be able to use playstation controllers, unless that has changed in the last couple of years. windows solves this problem by splitting hids into independent "top level collection" subdevices, which isn't really a first-class concept in hid itself, but while there is no such thing as a hid keyboard there is such a thing as a collection of inputs on a hid that is tagged as being keyboard-like, so windows walls off any such pieces of a device and allows arbitrary processes to freely access the rest. linux on the other hand takes an all-or-nothing approach and exposes things that can transmit and receive hid messages as single /dev nodes. ironically the primary input interface presented by the linux kernel is a proprietary "evdev" input protocol that it translates actual standardized input interfaces into. you can access "hidraw" devices in addition to that, but those only exist for actual hids and not for things like ps2 keyboards or whatever so most programs don't use it. windows on the other hand uses hid as the protocol for every device, whether the underlying device actually speaks hid or not. not surprising given that microsoft basically wrote the entire hid spec.
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Jan 31, 2024 05:06
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quote:
this is what keeps me coming back to the slop tbh
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Jan 31, 2024 05:16
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wouldn't a bluetooth keyboard use the bluetooth hid standard? or did you mean it's the same as usb to udev?
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Jan 31, 2024 05:21
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