|
I'm not gonna talk about Nova beyond saying that Raynor's economy was so incredibly high that by the time Bisby was maxing out I was at like. 60 supply. Maybe 80? And I was playing greedy too, I cut SCVs to get my first group of marines out early to open up and build my expo instead of protecting our base in the first attack wave. (sorry bout that, I believed in you!  )MULEs are good. habituallyred posted:The only real complaints I had with co-op was the inability to have hard difficulty enemies without the faster speed and the ridiculous amounts of grinding you would need to get any character to 15. Much less any character three times. Four times, if you want all the prestige options.  EDIT: update on the previous page.
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 07:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 05:01 |
|
|
Aren't Nova units horribly overpriced? Anyways, Carbot made an "how to Terrain" video that almost* perfectly encapsulates how Raynor plays. *Raynor got no liberators https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW1WKoDzYmg There's also the "Raynor-Zeratul become friends (weren't they already?)" co-op video (Carbot again) but that's more focused on Zeratul
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 07:29
|
|
|
Omobono posted:Aren't Nova units horribly overpriced? It's a testament to how boring Raynor is that in his feature, we're all talking about Nova. Yeah, Nova's units are EXPENSIVE. 4 Special Forces Marines cost 600 minerals. You also have half the unit cap, AND a cooldown on your units forcing you into mixed unit compositions (you can't just spam marines, for instance). But they are extremely powerful with powerful upgrades. That wave of hellions gets cleaned up by the 4 marines and a Defense Drone call in. The first thrasher on B+ I'll usually swing at with 4 marines, 2 marauders, and Nova, and win handily even if my partner has their thumbs up their rear end. And that's before getting into Nova's prestige. I play P3 Nova, which wildly changes her hero behavior in a way that often times the actual armies will be rolling up to a half-dead objective base with no defenders left because I've gutted it with Nova's abilities long before they got there. I could jabber for a long time on Nova because while her character might be bland, her co-op playstyle is very fun. You've gotta be careful because losing your expensive units is brutal, but you've got so many tools to prevent that from happening. gently caress I'm going to shut up now. I keep wanting to go in depth about dumb poo poo she can do.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 08:58
|
|
|
Jim is easy to play...at first, but hard to master. But he is a lot of fun once he gets going. I'm one of those fools who when the Prestiges came out wasted too much time grinding for them all, yet for Jimmy I just stick to his Default no Prestige when playing him. Backwater Marshal (Double Infantry Health) is even more focused on Bio. As the main component Man With Gun (Marine) gets to survive much longer. Also this applies to their upgrades. A Marine with Combat Shield (+20 health Instead of 10) and Level 3 Infantry Armor (60%) can have as much as 136 Health. You think that's good? The Firebat, which is far more useful here than in Wings, with Juggernaut Plating (+200 Health instead of 100) and Level 3? 460 Health and 6 Armor. (And they have increased range too innately.) However, the lack of MULEs for mineral farming really hurts economy wise. Ideally it's to make you focus on bio rather than more expensive mech (and you still need Orbital Commands for detection), but the reduced late game higher tier units can be a hindrance. Again, as much as I would love to play this style for my preferred focus on infantry, I just go with the default no prestige. Rough Rider makes Afterburners a mech Stimpack. Raynor's boys already have some good attack speed. A stimmed deployed Siege Tank or Battlecruiser force? Shenanigans abound. It also allows for some infantry support, especially Medics who can heal the damage (oh, another upgrade allows them to heal mechanical units) and more Marines. However, you need to research Afterburners first, it is not innate, which does take time. So the early game is a bit weak for him until he can tech up to that. Also there is more of a reliance on vespene than the other prestiges. Rebel Raider is fully air focused from the start. Quickly rushing Battlecruisers (with Viking support, Banshees are not always ideal) is always fun. And an increased uptime on the Hyperion too. However you really need to be on the ball with economy due to their increased cost, even more so with the 50% increase. Being able to make Orbital Commands immediately does help somewhat. Also, since the Mastery Combat Sets weren't listed here: 1. Research Resource Cost: Research costs -2% per point to 60% less. This includes the general Attack Speed and Armor/Health upgrades of the Engineering Bay and Armory. Speed Increases for Drop-Pod units: New units get +2% per point to 60% movement speed, attack speed, cooldown reduction and energy regeneration for 30 seconds after being drop podded. 2. Hyperion Cooldown: Reduces the cooldown by -4s to -120s. (Up to 240s) Does not reduce initial cooldown. Banshee Airstrike Cooldown: Reduces the cooldown by -4s to -120s. (Up to 120s) Does not reduce initial cooldown. (With a 60s timer this gives them a 50% uptime.) 3. Medics Heal Additional Target: Medics also heal a second target for 3 - 90% as much. Mech Attack Speed: +1% - 30% for Vehicles and Ships, stacking with any other boosts. I go for Reduced Research (gotta get my infantry supported), Banshee Airstrike (again, 50% uptime is not bad even if it is lacking to the Hyperion), and Medic (again infantry, less focus on mech) Sorry for the many words also. I too could go on and on on this. It's far better than the HOTS "story", obviously. SteveSteveSteve fucked around with this message at 09:36 on Jan 30, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 09:28
|
|
|
So much grinding for levels, I thought this was an RTS.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 09:52
|
|
|
I will say just don't go too in-depth on Commanders that haven't been covered yet and wait till the LP actually reaches them before you start vomiting words. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 10:00
|
|
|
That is my plan. I'll wait for you to showcase them out first before I do any long essays, including my personal favorite (Terran wise). I assume you're going through them by order of release?
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 10:07
|
|
|
SteveSteveSteve posted:That is my plan. I'll wait for you to showcase them out first, including my personal favorite (Terran wise). Each race's Commanders in order of release, yes. I considered putting it up to a vote, but later Commanders just have so much stuff to them that it'd be a bit of a letdown to go 'Here's Mengsk, look at all the cool poo poo he can do!' and follow up with 'This is Jimmy. He shoots things.'
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 10:10
|
|
|
BisbyWorl posted:I will say just don't go too in-depth on Commanders that haven't been covered yet and wait till the LP actually reaches them before you start vomiting words. I've been avoiding words  about coop Artanis precisely for this reason.E: Jimmy-Mengsk coop interaction on the Hyperion call down: Jimmy: "I'm calling in the Hyperion" (standard call down line) Mengsk: "At least you're using it for something other than its canteen", in an incredibly Omobono fucked around with this message at 10:14 on Jan 30, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 10:10
|
|
|
I loved co-op Artanis, he was such a joy to play. I'm really looking forward to reading other people's takes on the various commanders.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 10:12
|
|
|
BisbyWorl posted:Each race's Commanders in order of release, yes. Jimmy's neutral special is GUN.  I'm cripplingly overspecialized and only can play one commander worth anything at all, I'll about it when we get to her.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 10:24
|
|
|
TeeQueue posted:Jimmy's neutral special is GUN. When Jimmy's Rebellion Gauge is full, his neutral special becomes-  Gun Special. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 10:31
|
|
|
Xarn posted:So much grinding for levels, I thought this was an RTS. Tiberian Twilight says 'hi'. Among other, less fun, things.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 12:52
|
|
|
I could never get into Co-Op even though I really like campaign and 1v1. Was too repetitive for me, and incredibly grindy. Also, I'm a guy who needs to play on the hardest difficulty in SC2 because it's a game I'm so good at. When Commanders are at Level 1, harder difficulty is pretty much loving impossible, except for one Commander who was extremely broken at Co-Op launch. Not sure if they still are, I heard they got nerfed.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 13:01
|
|
|
An easy solution to the bio raynor rally micro: Set the barracks rally points to one of your medics. If they're dying in the fight, you have way bigger problems.SoundwaveAU posted:Also, I'm a guy who needs to play on the hardest difficulty in SC2 because it's a game I'm so good at. When Commanders are at Level 1, harder difficulty is pretty much loving impossible, except for one Commander who was extremely broken at Co-Op launch. Not sure if they still are, I heard they got nerfed. I'm not the greatest at the game, usually playing co-op on Hard or Brutal, but I can think of 2 commanders who are an absolute cakewalk on brutal at level 1.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 14:54
|
|
|
SoundwaveAU posted:I could never get into Co-Op even though I really like campaign and 1v1. Was too repetitive for me, and incredibly grindy. The grind is probably my only real criticism of co-op, followed a bit by variety. The leveling system is just obnoxious, since as Bisby points out the Prestiges can radically change how a commander plays, and a lot of commanders have core features locked behind the 1-15 progression, which you'll be spending a lot of time in the middle of because you're trying to unlock the next Prestige. Furthermore, the Masteries are no joke, so you REALLY want to hit level 90 to have the maximum points to distribute in there. Fortunately that carries over between commanders, but the 1-15 grind is forever (or at least until you unlock at the Prestiges you want for a commander). Variety just comes down to the PvE nature. Much like MMO raids, co-op is about mastery of the flow of a given scenario. For a given mission and enemy comp, waves and events will always trigger at the same time. Once you've done every map enough and have a good grasp on the compositions and what your commander needs to do to answer it, it comes down to your macro gameplay and tightening that up to get your timings as fast as possible. The tail here can be very long if you're interested in multiple commanders and aren't adverse to subjecting yourself to the misery roulette that is Mutations, but it can also be short if you've got a favorite/few that you enjoy and don't want to deal with rolling the dice and getting a bullshit mutation spread. Will we cover mutations at some point in the co-op discussion? That's a system I have a lot of mixed feelings about between genuinely fun mutations and absolute nonsense.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 14:55
|
|
|
Calling it here. Much like the ORB before it, we are immediately rushing through Zeratul's bullshit. e: Warmachine posted:Will we cover mutations at some point in the co-op discussion? That's a system I have a lot of mixed feelings about between genuinely fun mutations and absolute nonsense. Nah I'm not covering all of that, so go nuts. BisbyWorl fucked around with this message at 14:59 on Jan 30, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 14:57
|
|
|
Shame, the Char route introduces a character I actually quite like. She'll be waiting a bit longer I guess. I understand wanting to get this dungball truly rolling though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 15:01
|
|
|
I love coop, excited that your finally covering it! Raynor is billed as a beginner commander and I think does a pretty good job giving you a fairly basic and flexible toolkit. He is the favourite of boosters, morons, and people I can only assume are bots, because most of the least helpful people I get paired with are Raynors, but he can also provide an endless supply of marines which is the game's best weapon, and on p1 you don't even need much micro because they're so much tankier. Fun fact about the Hyperion, it fires significantly more shots while moving, so your best bet is to queue up a bunch of move command around the target rather than directly attacking anything. Void Thrashing as a map is odd in that it's one of the shortest and easiest for standard play, to the point where you (and the enemy) may well not actually max out into your endgame murder ball. It's enemy placements just tend not to be very scary, and the timing is extremely lenient. The void thrashers also spawn on timers, so a quick player can clear a lot of the accompaniment before worrying about the thrashers.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 15:19
|
|
|
that so-called "thrasher" did not do a single skate trick more like void poser
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 15:20
|
|
|
Tenebrais posted:Shame, the Char route introduces a character I actually quite like. She'll be waiting a bit longer I guess. I understand wanting to get this dungball truly rolling though. I mostly voted for it because the thing I'm personally the most steamed about hasn't come up yet and I didn't feel like holding it in for a whole nother story arc.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 15:28
|
|
|
Co-op looks absolutely stupid, but in a way that is both very cool and very fun. Unlike what lies ahead, which is stupid and lame. Pretty sure the Xel'Naga left a monolith on Zerus that begins "This place is not a place of honor..." Kurgarra Queen fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Jan 30, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 16:38
|
|
|
In defence of Zerus, it has some cool RTS missions! Take no note of the framing.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 16:45
|
|
|
hell yes i have so many fun facts here Fun Fact #1: Co-Op was originally "very humble" when it was introduced in 2015 and was largely considered to be a side project that shouldn't be prioritized. It quickly became the most popular mode in the game, with a full 16% of players claiming that they bought into Starcraft 2 just to play it. Fun Fact #2: Co-Op has a surprisingly active speedrunning community. Fun Fact #3: Backwater Marshal is the most popular Raynor prestige by a very wide margin because most players don't care about microing MULEs and the benefit (doubled infantry health!) is enormous. Plus, with no MULEs, Orbital Commands always have enough energy for Scanner Sweep. Fun Fact #4: Raynor's Firebats are actually useful because their Attack Delay issue was solved. They're also pretty tough, but with Backwater Marshal they become one of the toughest units in the game for cost. Fun Fact #5: For pros and speedrunners, Raynor is one of the best commanders in the game due to his ability to boost his economy with MULEs and his access to Vultures. Spider Mines are insane value per cost, featuring an absolutely hideous 125 damage with splash for a mere 15 minerals, and you'll have plenty of minerals on hand thanks to MULEs. Spider Mines also have the interesting feature of not relying on weapon/armor upgrades, so a "Spider Mine army" is much faster to come online than any other composition. Fun Fact #6: The Hyperion's unit lines were originally Matt Horner, but that was changed to Raynor when Horner became a Commander of his own. Fun Fact #7: Sgt. Hammer was originally Warfield, both in this mission and in Heroes of the Storm (back when it was Blizzard DOTA / Blizzard Allstars). She replaced him in HOTS to make the game's roster slightly less male-dominated, and she replaced him here because Warfield's VA was not available. Fun Fact #8: Co-Op occasionally gets balance updates based on changes made to units in Ladder. For example, Battlecruisers in Co-Op originally couldn't attack on the move, but they were upgraded to do so as part of a buff they received in Ladder in November of 2018.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 17:26
|
|
|
BisbyWorl posted:Calling it here. Ugh, fine. I'll get my drunken* rant ready. *not actually drunken. it probably should be
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 17:37
|
|
|
But guys. If we go to Zerus instead of Char, how are we going to learn that Swarmlings could be a good choice if you want a lot of Banelings? 
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 18:41
|
|
|
Kith posted:Fun Fact #4: Raynor's Firebats are actually useful because their Attack Delay issue was solved. They're also pretty tough, but with Backwater Marshal they become one of the toughest units in the game for cost. I think I might have mentioned this back when we did the Firebat feature... or when Co-Op first got talked about since I was just starting at the time, only had Raynor, and was PLESANTLY SURPRISED by how good Firebats actually were in co-op on the various 'horde' missions. Pretty much any missions involving infested I'd crank out Firebats with their upgrades and enjoy the fantasy of purging everything with fire. Which was an itch co-op Firebats actually scratched. Shame the fix wasn't backported to Wings. Real commitment to "campaigns are a time capsule, good bad and ugly" there blizz. Wasn't Co-Op first spearheaded with the "Left 2 Die" mission that was just a co-op of the Meinhoff mission from Wings?
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 18:42
|
|
|
Warmachine posted:Wasn't Co-Op first spearheaded with the "Left 2 Die" mission that was just a co-op of the Meinhoff mission from Wings? I remember playing a ton of this before co-op was a separate game mode, and in hindsight it does seem like a prototype, yeah.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 18:48
|
|
|
It's been a while, so I might be misremembering, but wasn't coop where Blizzard got really nasty about micro-transactions? I played a bit of it when it came out sometime past HotS, and was put off by that (and the horrible grindiness).
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 18:54
|
|
|
Kith posted:Fun Fact #2: Co-Op has a surprisingly active speedrunning community. Speaking of speedrunners and Raynor, if anyone wants to see what a truly top level Raynor can do, check out LilArrin on YouTube. He's easily the best Raynor player in the world, and some of the solo runs he's done are amazing. There will be spoilers for future characters in the videos though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 19:23
|
|
|
Warmachine posted:Wasn't Co-Op first spearheaded with the "Left 2 Die" mission that was just a co-op of the Meinhoff mission from Wings? Co-op launched with 6 missions on 10 November 2015, and then added one mission every few patches until 4.4.0, which was on 20 June 2018. Dead of Night was added March 7, 2017. I remember the announcement for it stating that it was heavily inspired by that custom game map, but I'd never played it so I can't say by just how much. There was also an arcade map someone made that was literally Outbreak But Co-op. It was fun, once.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 20:32
|
|
|
JackSplater posted:There was also an arcade map someone made that was literally Outbreak But Co-op. It was fun, once. Yeah, that was Left 2 Die, and the first version of it was released by Blizzard themselves, in April 2011, which is a lot earlier than I thought it came out.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 20:38
|
|
|
Cradok posted:Tiberian Twilight says 'hi'. Among other, less fun, things. Never heard of it, but I always thought it sucked that the C&C series ended at 3.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 21:03
|
|
|
JackSplater posted:Co-op launched with 6 missions on 10 November 2015, and then added one mission every few patches until 4.4.0, which was on 20 June 2018. Dead of Night was added March 7, 2017. I remember the announcement for it stating that it was heavily inspired by that custom game map, but I'd never played it so I can't say by just how much. Fun Fact #1: Dead of Night was originally supposed to be named Night of the Dead, which was the name of an existing and already extremely popular mod series. SC2 was not built to handle two maps of the same name existing at the same time, and so it completely imploded for a few days when it was first released and Blizzard resorted to a server rollback because they couldn't figure out any other way to fix it. Fun(?) Fact #2: I was the designer for NOTD and, as one of the Americans on the team, I got to be on point to deal with Blizzard. It sucked.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 21:15
|
|
|
Kith posted:SC2 was not built to handle two maps of the same name existing at the same time, and so it completely imploded for a few days when it was first released and Blizzard resorted to a server rollback because they couldn't figure out any other way to fix it. That's honestly impressive.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 21:53
|
|
Just Winging It posted:It's been a while, so I might be misremembering, but wasn't coop where Blizzard got really nasty about micro-transactions? I played a bit of it when it came out sometime past HotS, and was put off by that (and the horrible grindiness). Yeah, IIRC they give you two commanders of every race for free, but all the rest are $5 a pop.
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 21:56
|
|
|
Kith posted:
Challenge: Don't make text strings your key values Difficulty: Impossible Like, it's BIZARRE how often this comes up.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 22:14
|
|
|
Regalingualius posted:Yeah, IIRC they give you two commanders of every race for free, but all the rest are $5 a pop. Aren't the free ones just Jim, Kerri and Artanis? Fake edit: a random Talandar also didn't have the purchase button on my account? But Jimmy, Kerri and Artanis otherwise. E2: seriously why the gently caress do I have Talandar? Haven't spent a dime on SC2 after getting Heart way back when.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 22:18
|
|
|
IIRC: Raynor, Kerrigan and Artanis are free. Swann, Zagara and Karax are included when you buy the campaigns. The rest need to be purchased separately, although Stukov is included if you buy StarCraft Remastered.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 22:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 05:01 |
|
|
Warmachine posted:Challenge: Don't make text strings your key values lmao
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2024 22:50
|
|
