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Kchama posted:It's just gonna inspire Hamas to use the same tactics and make things even worse for the dumb monsters. The entire reason why it's a war crime is to make it happen less, but Israel's gotta be the smart boys. Hong XiuQuan posted:It's absolutely not the case that they've been entering hospitals in occupied territory and executing people in beds since the 1980s.
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Jan 31, 2024 11:45
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Has Hamas ever regarded itself as bound by IHL in any way? I don't see what escalation Israel would be afraid of here, given that Hamas already routinely targets civilians and is currently holding dozens hostage. As far as I know, Hamas hasn't done any perfidy attacks like that, so it would behoove Israel not to let them know that it's an allowed thing. Though alas, Israel has no problem being the evillest in the lands.
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Jan 31, 2024 11:48
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Kchama posted:As far as I know, Hamas hasn't done any perfidy attacks like that, so it would behoove Israel not to let them know that it's an allowed thing. Though alas, Israel has no problem being the evillest in the lands. It's definitely been claimed that Hamas has been doing that, as an excuse to explain why the IDF shoots civilians waving white flags or journalists. I've seen no proof of it though.
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Jan 31, 2024 12:14
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They’ve been shooting civilians long before Hamas existed.
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Jan 31, 2024 13:15
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Elman posted:It's definitely been claimed that Hamas has been doing that, as an excuse to explain why the IDF shoots civilians waving white flags or journalists. I've seen no proof of it though. The complete lack of proof is why I say 'as far as I know, they don't'. As bad as Hamas is, I'd prefer a little proof. hadji murad posted:They’ve been shooting civilians long before Hamas existed. Hell, them shooting civilians is what helped give Hamas reason to exist.
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Jan 31, 2024 13:20
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Kchama posted:The complete lack of proof is why I say 'as far as I know, they don't'. As bad as Hamas is, I'd prefer a little proof. Wouldn't a shooting done by plain-clothed Hamas members technically fall under that category? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67575684 Although, looking at it again now, maybe I was wrong presuming they were plain-clothed. In the blurry video that shows one of the gunmen get out of the car, you can see him wearing some kind of an olive military-style suit, but I can't really tell if it's identifiable specifically as Hamas uniform or if there is any sort of insignia on it. I imagine they wouldn't want to attract attention enroute by wearing Hamas insignia or whatever but they also definitely weren't dressed as Hasidic Jews or anything like that. A shooting at a hospital is still an escalation on Israel's part in any case, I feel, but the IDF have already done so much heinous poo poo that I don't know if Hamas have the resources to up the ante in any way at this point.
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Jan 31, 2024 13:44
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Regarding the perfidy shooting, there's also the simple operational matter that extracting three targets, one of them apparently paralyzed, makes for a more complex operation. Takes longer, more things can go wrong, needs a different kind of transportation, you get screeching families and orgs demanding release. Apparently the IDF and Shin Bet have realized they are no longer the Raid on Entebe/Capture Klaus Barbie people and are just sticking to basics: kill people and break poo poo. Their degraded capabilities can't really be trusted for more finesse than that.
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Jan 31, 2024 13:57
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Kchama posted:... That doesn't mean that unit has been doing perfidy war crimes since 1986. The unit was created for undercover work while posing as civilians as well as counter intelligence, they've absolutely been doing this since the 80s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duvdevan_Unit I don't know if they've been going into hospitals to do it, which is the only thing that makes this last bit notable. They've aboslutely been carrying out assassinations while dressed as civilians for decades.
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Jan 31, 2024 14:10
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Miftan posted:The unit was created for undercover work while posing as civilians as well as counter intelligence, they've absolutely been doing this since the 80s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duvdevan_Unit Undercover work while posing as civilians and counter intelligence is not perfidy. It is specifically allowed as a legitimate ruse of war. Assassinations while posing as a civilian is another matter, though I suspect there won’t be much evidence of it.
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Jan 31, 2024 14:39
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Paladinus posted:Wouldn't a shooting done by plain-clothed Hamas members technically fall under that category? Israel likes to have it both ways - they say militants dress as civilians but a big complaint after the 10/7 attacks was that some militant detachments dressed as IDF soldiers (you can see in videos they were in fatigues and had green headbands on).
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Jan 31, 2024 15:14
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Kchama posted:Undercover work while posing as civilians and counter intelligence is not perfidy. It is specifically allowed as a legitimate ruse of war. Didn't they do it earlier in 2023 in Jenin on motorcycles?
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Jan 31, 2024 16:09
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E2M2 posted:Didn't they do it earlier in 2023 in Jenin on motorcycles? That one was through a bomb, which I believe is perfectly fine with regards to perfidy. No word on what unit did it either. The accusation was that that specific unit did perfidious assassinations, IE shooting someone while dressed as a civilian or enemy soldier, planting bombs and stuff is generally fine because it's Sabotage or Legitimate Ruse of War. You wouldn't want to be CAUGHT doing those things, though.
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Feb 1, 2024 01:40
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Has Hamas ever regarded itself as bound by IHL in any way? I don't see what escalation Israel would be afraid of here, given that Hamas already routinely targets civilians and is currently holding dozens hostage. honestly I don't feel like I'm getting enough of a view of internal Israeli media - is the English language in-country-produced stuff about the same tone or is Hebrew media wildly different? I could probably get some idea through Google translate but 1) I'm also not up on the details of most of the outlets and 2) it's always hard to Google foreign language media for obvious reasons
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Feb 1, 2024 01:54
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Kchama posted:That one was through a bomb, which I believe is perfectly fine with regards to perfidy. No word on what unit did it either. The accusation was that that specific unit did perfidious assassinations, IE shooting someone while dressed as a civilian or enemy soldier, planting bombs and stuff is generally fine because it's Sabotage or Legitimate Ruse of War. You wouldn't want to be CAUGHT doing those things, though. No, I saw a video of assassins killing people and running away on motorcycles. Even double tapping them when they were already dead on the ground. Don't remember exactly when. Might have been after those IDF units got hit with IEDs last year? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/israel-palestinians-raids-west-bank/ This was it, I think. E2M2 fucked around with this message at 07:48 on Feb 1, 2024 |
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Feb 1, 2024 07:42
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E2M2 posted:No, I saw a video of assassins killing people and running away on motorcycles. Even double tapping them when they were already dead on the ground. Don't remember exactly when. Might have been after those IDF units got hit with IEDs last year? I looked into it and that isn't perfidious assassination. They weren't soldiers, but police officers. That actually does matter, since police officers aren't officially military. Which means it was illegal extrajudicial killings, not perfidious assassination. Still very illegal and hosed up, but a different sort. And since they were police officers, they couldn't have been the military unit whose existence was being used as proof that Israel has been doing perfidious assassinations for decades. Kchama fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Feb 1, 2024 |
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Feb 1, 2024 13:49
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Kchama posted:I looked into it and that isn't perfidious assassination. They weren't soldiers, but police officers. That actually does matter, since police officers aren't officially military. Which means it was illegal extrajudicial killings, not perfidious assassination. Still very illegal and hosed up, but a different sort. Why are you doing this?
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Feb 1, 2024 14:26
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Stringent posted:Why are you doing this? Why am I doing what? I think it matters to be precise and truthful, especially about the worst people, such as the IDF. Lying or exaggerating doesn't do any good, especially when it helps those who defend the IDF and their vile crimes. Besides, they're awful enough that we don't need to make anything up, and making stuff up just means that people can go "Ah-hah! If you can lie about this, then surely you can lie about this!" Paladinus posted:Wouldn't a shooting done by plain-clothed Hamas members technically fall under that category? If they're in a uniform, then it's not perfidious. Or if they're not military. Not all Hamas are military, they're a government organization, not a purely military one.
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Feb 1, 2024 14:50
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Kchama posted:Why am I doing what? I think it matters to be precise and truthful, especially about the worst people, such as the IDF. Lying or exaggerating doesn't do any good, especially when it helps those who defend the IDF and their vile crimes. Besides, they're awful enough that we don't need to make anything up, and making stuff up just means that people can go "Ah-hah! If you can lie about this, then surely you can lie about this!" I'm not going to be able to give you a news source for my claim, sorry.
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Feb 1, 2024 14:52
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Kchama posted:Why am I doing what? I think it matters to be precise and truthful, especially about the worst people, such as the IDF. Lying or exaggerating doesn't do any good, especially when it helps those who defend the IDF and their vile crimes. Besides, they're awful enough that we don't need to make anything up, and making stuff up just means that people can go "Ah-hah! If you can lie about this, then surely you can lie about this!" Mods, can I get a month please? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 1, 2024 15:05
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Miftan posted:I'm not going to be able to give you a news source for my claim, sorry. That's okay. It'd be pretty hard to get proof considering what is involved. Stringent posted:Mods, can I get a month please? I hope you understand that explaining is not condoning. And it's weird that "we should make sure to tell the truth about how they are fuckers so that people will continue to believe us when we say they are fuckers" is an issue.
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Feb 1, 2024 15:31
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Kchama posted:Undercover work while posing as civilians and counter intelligence is not perfidy. It is specifically allowed as a legitimate ruse of war. "Legitimate ruse" is such a ridiculous phrase of legalese. It was a legitimate ruse! A legitimate ruse I say!
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Feb 1, 2024 16:01
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GoodluckJonathan posted:"Legitimate ruse" is such a ridiculous phrase of legalese. Just say it in the Foghorn Leghorn way and it makes perfect sense. It's just a catch-all for tricks that aren't considered illegal, like lighting fires to mislead bombers into thinking they already struck a place, and therefore not hitting it. Or sending in saboteurs, or spies. Generally anything besides perfidy or treachery. Not that Israel uses any sort such non-perfidious stratagems of war. They prefer just sending in lots of guys of various affiliations with guns and bombs and a love for killing.
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Feb 1, 2024 16:22
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Kchama posted:Which means it was illegal extrajudicial killings, not perfidious assassination. Still very illegal and hosed up, but a different sort. Can you explain what the difference between what those are? And why that distinction matters? They seem very much the same thing to me. It just seems like you're trying to derail the thread into stupid semantic arguments
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Feb 1, 2024 16:53
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whiskey patrol posted:Can you explain what the difference between what those are? And why that distinction matters? They seem very much the same thing to me. It just seems like you're trying to derail the thread into stupid semantic arguments Well, one is a war crime and one is a human rights violation. Perfidy is basically only for war and military units. As the conversation was about, it was being used as an example that a specific military unit had done perfidious stuff like the hospital for like 70 years now in response to me saying it was not only really evil but dumb on Israel's part because make it easier for Hamas to do it in a tit-for-tat way. because as far as I know, Hamas has not been doing perfidious stuff of that nature prior to 10/7 (if they even did it on 10/7). So it just being plainclothes cops being used to shoot people as opposed to civilian-pretending is a important difference when it comes to the "is this war crime perfidy like Israel did?" question. Kchama fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Feb 1, 2024 |
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Feb 1, 2024 17:01
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whiskey patrol posted:Can you explain what the difference between what those are? And why that distinction matters? They seem very much the same thing to me. It just seems like you're trying to derail the thread into stupid semantic arguments One is a war crime and one is a human rights violation, they're different crimes. (edit: lol didn't see Kchama's post while typing this, don't mean to repeat word for word) If you are prosecuting people for crimes you want to charge them with the correct crimes. If you're discussing potential prosecutions of crimes it's helpful to be discussing the correct type of crimes. They are very closely related and it is a nitpicky detail but if you're going to discuss legal matters, pedantry is routine. It also just is useful on a rhetorical and consistency level to just, you know, not be inaccurate so as to be in a solid position if you're discussing the issue. On a related note: from what I've read, not wearing uniforms alone isn't perfidy, whether it's Hamas or the IDF doing it. if they're openly carrying arms, are distinguished from civilians, and are otherwise identifiable as combatants. This doesn't describe basically any of the times the IDF did this (that I know of), but does cover many Hamas/PIJ assaults on IDF positions/troops, as they are irregular forces and don't always have standard uniforms. https://www.icrc.org/data/rx/en/assets/files/other/irrc_853_pfanner.pdf Kchama posted:because as far as I know, Hamas has not been doing perfidious stuff of that nature prior to 10/7 (if they even did it on 10/7). I don't think they did, no one that day was mistaking any of their units for civilians, even if some weren't wearing uniforms per-se. Kagrenak fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Feb 1, 2024 |
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Feb 1, 2024 17:11
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What is the value of exploring the minutiae of international law in an era where we are dismantling international law to enable a state’s ongoing ethnic cleansing? It’s like arguing with your friend about whether you’ll make it to New York before or after lunch even after you just hit the iceberg. And what fraction of human beings care about the distinction? Who’s gonna say ‘well I thought it was an outrage seeing that plainclothes execution but it if was done by police then I’m not so sure’ or ‘initially I thought israel had gone too far with that assassination but now that I know it wasn’t technically done by the military my concerns have been assuaged’ (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 1, 2024 17:22
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celadon posted:What is the value of exploring the minutiae of international law in an era where we are dismantling international law to enable a state’s ongoing ethnic cleansing? It’s like arguing with your friend about whether you’ll make it to New York before or after lunch even after you just hit the iceberg. This is a thread on a tiny internet forum, the only real world "value" it has is to inform the people reading it. The internet is full of places you can post poorly sourced hot takes that people will +1 or thumbs up or whatever without caring if what you are saying is actually true. Posts are not some limited resource and this thread doesn't move that fast.
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Feb 1, 2024 17:30
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I mean, it seems like it’d be a more useful use of everyone’s time to focus on the war crime itself than get bogged down in this discussion.
Nucleic Acids fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Feb 1, 2024 |
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Feb 1, 2024 17:32
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Nucleic Acids posted:I mean, it seems like it’d be Morse useful to focus on the war crime itself than get bogged down in this discussion. What does this mean? How many times should we post some repetition of a generic "this was horrible and illegal" before you're satisfied and we can move on to discussing the legal specifics. Do you have new information about the cowardly attack to discuss? Do you have anything more to actually say about it, if so, why didn't you? At least celadon had a point to discuss, although I disagree and think that when laws and systems are under assault to cover for fascists is precisely the time to discuss the specifics of those things. This discussion is focusing on the war crime itself also! celadon posted:What is the value of exploring the minutiae of international law in an era where we are dismantling international law to enable a state’s ongoing ethnic cleansing? It’s like arguing with your friend about whether you’ll make it to New York before or after lunch even after you just hit the iceberg. If you're discussing something like this with a low information person later and they find out you're mischaracterizing the specifics, this doubt opens the door to later doubt of specifics. It's a little dumb in this instance given the much easier war crimes to point out, to be sure, but being consistently accurate is still important even in this day. Kagrenak fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Feb 1, 2024 |
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Feb 1, 2024 17:38
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celadon posted:What is the value of exploring the minutiae of international law in an era where we are dismantling international law to enable a state’s ongoing ethnic cleansing? It’s like arguing with your friend about whether you’ll make it to New York before or after lunch even after you just hit the iceberg. Considering it's a highly militarized society where the citizens, law enforcement, and military are working in conjunction to effect a genocide, there is absolutely no value beyond throwing up a smokescreen to partially divert the discussion away from the ongoing genocide. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 1, 2024 17:49
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Bel Shazar posted:Considering it's a highly militarized society where the citizens, law enforcement, and military are working in conjunction to effect a genocide, there is absolutely no value beyond throwing up a smokescreen to partially divert the discussion away from the ongoing genocide. How is discussing the specifics of how they're committing atrocities diverting discussing the atrocities? Do you have anything new to discuss about the broader genocide, or do you just want everyone to post daily death count updates? We could also talk about how the defunding of UNRWA comes right as Gaza is entering a deeper famine than ever before, we could discuss strategies to pressure our governments to reverse course on this as well. Instead of productively diverting the conversation you're all just deciding to scold people for caring about being accurate without actually moving the discussion in the direction you want to see.
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Feb 1, 2024 18:00
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Kagrenak posted:I don't think they did, no one that day was mistaking any of their units for civilians, even if some weren't wearing uniforms per-se. I heard accusations that they did try to use IDF uniforms, but being that it is IDF accusations, I had to voice doubts about it. Kagrenak posted:What does this mean? How many times should we post some repetition of a generic "this was horrible and illegal" before you're satisfied and we can move on to discussing the legal specifics. Do you have new information about the cowardly attack to discuss? Do you have anything more to actually say about it, if so, why didn't you? At least celadon had a point to discuss, although I disagree and think that when laws and systems are under assault to cover for fascists is precisely the time to discuss the specifics of those things. Yeah I agree with this entirely.
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Feb 1, 2024 18:05
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Kchama posted:I looked into it and that isn't perfidious assassination. They weren't soldiers, but police officers. That actually does matter, since police officers aren't officially military. Which means it was illegal extrajudicial killings, not perfidious assassination. Still very illegal and hosed up, but a different sort. National police on occupation duties are firmly combatants and subject to the particular laws of war governing legal occupation(that they break a lot btw, land expropriation is banned outside treaties, and even then you aren't allowed to remove population involentarily). The two acts of perfidy are using the civilian clothing (uniform just refers to distinctive marks that reasonably identify you as a combatant, such as the green headband and face covering mask or fatigues with flag and rank, a formal uniform isn't technically required, just that you have identifiers on), and executing combat operations in a protected structure against legitimate patients. Basically the most perfidious part is that it was totally unnecessary, they could have simply formally demanded the hospital release the known combatants to their care as prisoners. Perfidy in COIN operations and occupations just has very low risk of consequences, especially because the PA is the only group that would have standing. The primary reason not to participate in perfidious actions are the fact it's immediately no quarter combat(no obligation to accept your surrender) and that even if you escape, you might later be subject to the laws of the victim nation as a non uniform combatant and tried under their likely quite unfriendly criminal laws. Both aren't really a concern if you don't expect surrender to be recognized anyway and you completely dominate your opponents government and territory, it's just the downsides under international law(the people who still live there)that prevents you from declaring your intent to annex it. Edit: national police want to be uniformed combatants in this situation, else everything they do down to their very entry could be called up if the PA ever had the power and inclination to press the issue internationally. I can't believe I have to say it but you can both commit human rights violations and war crimes at the same time, and this is both as is typically for a fascist power demonstration. Barrel Cactaur fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Feb 1, 2024 |
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Feb 1, 2024 18:43
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Biden signs executive order sanctioning West Bank settlers https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/02/01/biden-signs-executive-order-sanctioning-west-bank-settlers/ quote:President Biden signed an executive order on Thursday that imposes sanctions on four West Bank settlers who have committed violence against Palestinians. The order marks the most significant action Biden has taken against Israelis amid criticism over U.S. backing for Israel’s war in Gaza. I'm not sure how much this really matters to settler nutjobs, but it's something I guess.
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Feb 1, 2024 18:44
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EDIT: misread
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Feb 1, 2024 19:05
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Yesterday my city, Chicago USA, became the largest in the country (the world?) to officially call for a ceasefire. It came down to a tie in the city council with the mayor as tiebreaker. Enormous amounts of organizing went into this - a lot of orgs working together to persuade/encourage their local aldermen who were primarily concerned about optics. The idea of antisemitism was really potent - the one Jewish city council member, who represents the biggest Jewish neighborhoods in the city, was firmly and vocally against, and understandably aldermen were very skittish about disagreeing with her. But the city also has a very large Palestinian population so there was a sort of counterbalance on the identity politics front. The Teacher's Union played a huge role - both in directly advocating for a ceasefire and as the motor of Mayor Johnson's whole political career. Really proud of that. https://chicago.suntimes.com/city-hall/2024/1/31/24057161/mayor-brandon-johnson-gaza-ceasefire-resolution-raucous-debate-clears-chambers ummel posted:Biden signs executive order sanctioning West Bank settlers A tiptoe step toward the door out of hell, but still the right direction. Now let's sanction the state that's encouraging and equipping these settlers. Nucleic Acids posted:I mean, it seems like it’d be a more useful use of everyone’s time to focus on the war crime itself than get bogged down in this discussion. Posting in D&D, and reading posts in D&D, is not at all a useful use of anyone's time. At best it's recreational. Anyone who wants to use their time usefully has options - donate, call elected representatives, protest, organize an action, volunteer for a campaign by canvassing or phonebanking or spreadsheet stuff. These are the more useful uses of your time, not posting differently or reading different posts. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Feb 1, 2024 |
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Feb 1, 2024 19:15
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Barrel Cactaur posted:National police on occupation duties are firmly combatants and subject to the particular laws of war governing legal occupation(that they break a lot btw, land expropriation is banned outside treaties, and even then you aren't allowed to remove population involentarily). The two acts of perfidy are using the civilian clothing (uniform just refers to distinctive marks that reasonably identify you as a combatant, such as the green headband and face covering mask or fatigues with flag and rank, a formal uniform isn't technically required, just that you have identifiers on), and executing combat operations in a protected structure against legitimate patients. Basically the most perfidious part is that it was totally unnecessary, they could have simply formally demanded the hospital release the known combatants to their care as prisoners. We were talking about the events from last year, not the hospital attack that just happened, which was 1000% perfidy. And yes you obviously can commit human rights violations and and do war crimes at the same time, but in this case, as the Washington Post noted (which was the source given), this was a police action instead of a war action. So they were obviously breaking laws on occupation, but not committing war crimes concerning perfidy. They just weren't perfidying war crimingly in the attack last year. Plainclothes cops rolled up on some guys on the street and lit them up, but they were apparently pretty reasonably identifiable as cops, which is why people knew they were cops. punishedkissinger posted:I don't see what action Israel could commit against Palestinians that wouldn't be a military action as The West Bank exists under a military occupation and not some kind of civilian law enforcement. Because non-military police aren't military is the big difference, I wager. Legal distinction matters a lot, even if it is dumb. I mean, they still committed many major international crimes doing it, just not the war crimes type. Kchama fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Feb 1, 2024 |
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Feb 1, 2024 19:18
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I don't see what action Israel could commit against Palestinians that wouldn't be a military action as The West Bank exists under a military occupation and not some kind of civilian law enforcement. Edit: How can "non military police" enforce a military occupation? punishedkissinger fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Feb 1, 2024 |
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Feb 1, 2024 19:22
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punishedkissinger posted:I don't see what action Israel could commit against Palestinians that wouldn't be a military action as The West Bank exists under a military occupation and not some kind of civilian law enforcement. Because they're dumb enough to send civilian police to help enforce their criminal actions on Gaza? I don't condone any of this poo poo, I'm just explaining the stupid rationale.
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Feb 1, 2024 19:31
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If you send civilian police to enforce a military occupation, are they not defacto paramilitary combatants? Is "these aren't soldiers" really just a get out of jail free card for war crimes?
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Feb 1, 2024 19:34
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