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Kchama posted:Because non-military police aren't military is the big difference, I wager. Legal distinction matters a lot, even if it is dumb. I mean, they still committed many major international crimes doing it, just not the war crimes type. If I'm reading this right: "semantics are more important, even though they're dumb" I can't figure this out otherwise. Like if, for instance, genocide were only classified as a misdemeanor it wouldn't be as bad as murder because it's technically in a different legal category? Really? Even though it would be dumb, that's how it's classified and that's what we should focus on? Categorization is key over substance? OctaMurk posted:If you send civilian police to enforce a military occupation, are they not defacto paramilitary combatants? Is "these aren't soldiers" really just a get out of jail free card for war crimes? Like this, if they are not classified as military, but they're doing military-seeming things (that are not different than military actions--but the worker isn't classified as such) its technically not military actions? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) The Sean fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Feb 1, 2024 |
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Feb 1, 2024 19:42
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OctaMurk posted:If you send civilian police to enforce a military occupation, are they not defacto paramilitary combatants? Is "these aren't soldiers" really just a get out of jail free card for war crimes? one weird trick to ethnically cleanse. ICJ hates this!
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Feb 1, 2024 19:43
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Oddly enough Palestinians in the West Bank are subject to the military court system. Make of that what you will! https://www.btselem.org/topic/military_courts
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Feb 1, 2024 19:46
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The Einsatzgruppen that conducted the beginning of the holocaust were founded as a police unit within the national security police organization. A large number of their membership were prosecuted as war criminals. I am extremely skeptical that the precise organizational detail of the units doing war crimes matters. What matters more is will the war criminals be captured by a organization willing to prosecute them for war crimes, and I can’t imagine anyone thinks that is likely for any of the people who dressed up as doctors to assassinate patients in a hospital.
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Feb 1, 2024 19:48
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https://twitter.com/braunold/status/1753105943334678864?t=2hsDz7YxvlllX8g3HQKYsw&s=19 This Twitter thread is interesting, it says that the new EO sanctioning West Bank settlers could be used to sanction members of the Israeli government and any organization raising funds for settlements
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Feb 1, 2024 19:54
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punishedkissinger posted:one weird trick to ethnically cleanse. ICJ hates this! Israel about to re-categorize their soldiers as police so they're no longer carrying out war crimes, just sparkling oppression.
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Feb 1, 2024 20:02
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rscott posted:https://twitter.com/braunold/status/1753105943334678864?t=2hsDz7YxvlllX8g3HQKYsw&s=19 So far they're only targeting four (4) people, none of which are members of the government. pretty underwhelming.
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Feb 1, 2024 20:03
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Civilian police doesn't operate in the west bank at all. Israel has a military unit called the border force (nothing to do with what you'd expect) that is organisationally under the police, but gets recruits via the military conscription. It's a military unit in all but name.
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Feb 1, 2024 20:04
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punishedkissinger posted:So far they're only targeting four (4) people, none of which are members of the government. pretty underwhelming. It remains to be seen if the Biden Administration will actually use these powers on anyone important (doubtful) but it's likely going to have a chilling effect on organizations trying to fundraise for settlements in the US
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Feb 1, 2024 20:08
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Biden's office said they're not sanctioning Smotrich or Ben Gvir. They're not intended to be anything more than symbolically meaningful sanctions against a handful of politically impotent scumbags. https://x.com/lrozen/status/1753104098583261505?s=20 And even the symbolism is really just "if you kill tens of thousands more people, we might have to have a tough conversation!" EDIT: forgot to put "not" in the first sentence lol. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Feb 1, 2024 |
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Feb 1, 2024 20:12
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Kchama posted:We were talking about the events from last year, not the hospital attack that just happened, which was 1000% perfidy. And yes you obviously can commit human rights violations and and do war crimes at the same time, but in this case, as the Washington Post noted (which was the source given), this was a police action instead of a war action. So they were obviously breaking laws on occupation, but not committing war crimes concerning perfidy. Police activity directed at civilians in occupied territory is military activity. Its primary purpose for the occupier is catching ruses of war and fighting non uniform combatants, because they don't trust local authorities to be compliant in that, and that IS a military activity. Only the native police enjoy protected status as civilians and then only when they act in the capacity of enforcing the laws of the original jurisdiction under occupation (ie, surender to your authority and are allowed to resume civil duties with a degree of independence). If you invade somewhere and install your own law enforcement, that's acts of war and legitimate targets Edit: you are expected to conduct your actions as uniform combatants as the occupation force, non uniformed activities must be limited the same way: used only when it doesn't cause perfidy, generally in the movement of completly unarmed personnel or the gathering of military intelligence. Plain clothes police only exists within a nation because it's an internal affair not subject to international law. Occupation is subject to the laws of war. Barrel Cactaur fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Feb 1, 2024 |
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Feb 1, 2024 20:17
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Marenghi posted:Israel about to re-categorize their soldiers as police so they're no longer carrying out war crimes, just sparkling oppression. I mean it's still international crimes! Just a different category. Miftan posted:Civilian police doesn't operate in the west bank at all. Israel has a military unit called the border force (nothing to do with what you'd expect) that is organisationally under the police, but gets recruits via the military conscription. It's a military unit in all but name. That does sound like they're trying to use the civilian nature of the Border Force to get around it being Officially War Crimes, but who, with any power, is going to be able to call them out on that? (I add in 'with any power' because that's basically just the US who never will). Barrel Cactaur posted:Police activity directed at civilians in occupied territory is military activity. Its primary purpose for the occupier is catching ruses of war and fighting non uniform combatants, because they don't trust local authorities to be compliant in that, and that IS a military activity. Only the native police enjoy protected status as civilians and then only when they act in the capacity of enforcing the laws of the original jurisdiction under occupation (ie, surender to your authority and are allowed to resume civil duties with a degree of independence). If you invade somewhere and install your own law enforcement, that's acts of war and legitimate targets. No one said they weren't legitimate targets. The question was if plainclothes cops counted as the war crime of perfidy in an occupation.
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Feb 1, 2024 20:17
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Biden's office said they're sanctioning Smotrich or Ben Gvir. They're not intended to be anything more than symbolically meaningful sanctions against a handful of politically impotent scumbags. The tweet you quotes says the reverse, that they're not sanctioning them. I think sanctioning them even by just not giving them visas would be a great symbolic thing, but they're not even doing that. But, it's something, and they're probably testing the waters with this.
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Feb 1, 2024 20:52
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I guess the sanctions are better than nothing, but they're effectively meaningless in the short term. Maybe they'll have a long term effect, who knows. If it's intended to appease Muslim voters, I'd bet my life for a dollar that it's not going to work. Biden really does not have much time to pivot, if he intends on doing that (I doubt he does, though I'd be happy if he did). At this point, almost (if not all) of Gaza is subject to famine or near-famine conditions. If the situation on the ground doesn't change significantly, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians are going to be dead in 6-8 weeks. I don't think there's any coming back from that, either for Biden personally (w/r/t young/progressive/Muslim voters) but more significantly for America's reputation in general & the stability of the region. This isn't Yemen - every social media feed & every major news outlet is going to be filled with pictures of starving Palestinian children. It's difficult to imagine a scenario in which rage in the Arab street doesn't boil over and throw the region into total chaos.
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Feb 1, 2024 22:01
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kiminewt posted:The tweet you quotes says the reverse, that they're not sanctioning them. I think sanctioning them even by just not giving them visas would be a great symbolic thing, but they're not even doing that. Thanks I forgot to to put "not" in there.
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Feb 1, 2024 22:03
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kiminewt posted:The tweet you quotes says the reverse, that they're not sanctioning them. I think sanctioning them even by just not giving them visas would be a great symbolic thing, but they're not even doing that. It's a shot across the bow that the previous "no really, don't use Oct 7 as a pretext to mess with the West Bank" wasn't entirely foolin'. The administration has consistently taken a harsher position towards Israel re the West Bank than Gaza, in large part because it's not run by Hamas. I, uh, disagree with the Biden administration calculus on Gaza, seeing as how a bit of quiet finger wagging with no discernable concrete action has not in fact led to a ceasefire yet, but they're correct that Israel cleansing a largely unrelated region would be a Bad Look. and an atrocity, I suppose
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Feb 2, 2024 00:39
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I *understand* the calculus on Gaza (if we don't continue catering to Israel we'll lose their goodwill  and we think that goodwill is the best avenue for ongoing negotiations and preventing the absolute worst case scenarios), but as of December or so at the latest it became a *failure* at everything except keeping them from escalating with Lebanon/Iran. How big a failure remains to be seen. It's not looking that promising, temporary ceasefire negotiation noises notwithstanding.
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Feb 2, 2024 00:43
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Google Jeb Bush posted:It's a shot across the bow that the previous "no really, don't use Oct 7 as a pretext to mess with the West Bank" wasn't entirely foolin'. The administration has consistently taken a harsher position towards Israel re the West Bank than Gaza, in large part because it's not run by Hamas. I, uh, disagree with the Biden administration calculus on Gaza, seeing as how a bit of quiet finger wagging with no discernable concrete action has not in fact led to a ceasefire yet, but they're correct that Israel cleansing a largely unrelated region would be a Bad Look. and an atrocity, I suppose Unrelated? No it has Palestinians, which is all that matters. As one can see from the rhetoric out of Israel and all the constant slipups of Israel defenders, the war is against Palestinians not Hamas.
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Feb 2, 2024 00:45
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The sanctions against settlers a complete loving joke, but, but, I can guarantee a few of these he worst people on earth alive today will have an absolute loving meltdown about it anyway. Would rather we just start bombing the IDF until they stop killing civilians but hey it’s the little pleasures
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Feb 2, 2024 06:17
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I'd rather the US just sanctioned them to hell so they'll be forced to stop and no one will get killed but hey I have family members in the IDF.
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Feb 2, 2024 09:39
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Google Jeb Bush posted:It's a shot across the bow that the previous "no really, don't use Oct 7 as a pretext to mess with the West Bank" wasn't entirely foolin'. The administration has consistently taken a harsher position towards Israel re the West Bank than Gaza, in large part because it's not run by Hamas. I, uh, disagree with the Biden administration calculus on Gaza, seeing as how a bit of quiet finger wagging with no discernible concrete action has not in fact led to a ceasefire yet, but they're correct that Israel cleansing a largely unrelated region would be a Bad Look. and an atrocity, I suppose Guys, let's put these activities in perspective. The US has, over the last three months: 1) Given the greenlight for pretty much whatever Israel wants to do in Gaza *and* the West Bank 2) Provided incoherent, continuous smokescreens for the actions of its proxy 3) Repeatedly voted against any minor international controls over its proxy (cf UN resolution vetoes) 4) Has ignored the plight of its Palestinian-American citizens, seemingly to please its proxy 5) Punished (and pressured its allies to punish) Palestinian-focused international aid organisations, on the flimsiest of 'evidence' from its proxies, in response to international action designed to restrain its proxy amidst genocide 6) Been embarrassed repeatedly by its proxy basically saying "doesn't matter wtf the US wants, we'll do what we do" 7) Completely ignored huge protest internally, both on the streets and in the sheets (civil service) (and so on) Having an EO that gives an ability to maybe put some of the individuals involved in this is *nothing*. It's barely even symbolic. It's an imperial fart gifted to honour you. And there's plenty that the US could do. What could it do? Well, start treating Israeli dual-citizens like brown dual-citizens. You've gone abroad to Israel in the last three months? Time for an interview with homeland security. You're returning from Israel and you're at the airport? Time for some enhanced cheques (e: going to leave this typo in because it amuses me). You want to lobby this government and you receive money even opaquely from Israel? Time to register as a foreign agent. You've been posting war crimes on social media? Well, we've noticed. You're arrested and prosecuted on arrival. You're an org or a fund involved in any way with settlements? Prepare to have your accounts frozen and offices raided. You need more tank rounds because you've spaffed them all up against women and children? How about no. Your tech sector is extremely vulnerable to import/export controls? Prepare for software and hardware sales restrictions. Your political class wants to go on holiday? How about wide-ranging travel controls. You don't want to be prosecuted for war crimes? Here's an independent US investigation. Oh, and we'll share intelligence. There's *so* much that could be done. And if the argument is that it can't because: political realism. Ie people don't want to lose their seats. Then your argument is effectively that the proxy state has a stranglehold on American politics, at least with regards to elements it views as in its interests. And you should be loving outraged over that.
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Feb 2, 2024 09:52
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https://x.com/carogennez/status/1753162275580444928?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q Belgium is one of the countries that refused to defund the UNRWA.
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Feb 2, 2024 11:02
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Adenoid Dan posted:Oddly enough Palestinians in the West Bank are subject to the military court system. Can a country be a democracy if it doesn't allow a significant percentage of its population any democractic rights? quote:Israeli authorities, in fact, take it a step further, denying that its human rights obligations extend to its treatment of Palestinians in the occupied West Bank. quote:For example, the Israeli army detained in 2016 human rights defender Farid al-Atrash, who works at the Independent Commission of Human Rights, a quasi-official body of the Palestinian Authority, during a peaceful demonstration in Hebron that called for re-opening a main downtown street that the army prohibits Palestinians from accessing. Prosecutors charged him under Military Order 101 for “demonstrating without a permit” and under Military Order 1651 for “attempt[ing] to influence public opinion in the Area in a manner that may harm public order or safety” through “inciting” chants and “waving Palestinian Authority flags” and holding a sign that read “Open Shuhada Street.” Prosecutors further accused him of entering "a closed military zone” and “assault[ing]” a soldier, but furnished no actual evidence to substantiate these claims outside his non-violent participation in the demonstration. Authorities released al-Atrash on bail four days after his arrest but continue to prosecute him for his participation in this event three-and-a-half years later. https://www.hrw.org/report/2019/12/17/born-without-civil-rights/israels-use-draconian-military-orders-repress
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Feb 2, 2024 13:23
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Hong XiuQuan posted:
I don't think that anyone has argued that "nothing" can be done to curb Israeli attacks and atrocities in the future. The argument is that given how terrible the attack on October 7 was, the Israeli response that you have seen to it could not have been stopped without a military intervention. No amount of tech sector pressure or whatever would have done anything, and certainly not keeping Israelis from traveling given that Israel drafted 1/5th of their population, anyway.
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Feb 2, 2024 13:44
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kiminewt posted:I'd rather the US just sanctioned them to hell so they'll be forced to stop and no one will get killed but hey I have family members in the IDF. Sorry to hear your family are scum-sucking fascist baby killers. Personally, if my family had the moral fibre of a Dirlewanger Brigade member I would wish them dead. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 2, 2024 13:45
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Sorry to hear your family are scum-sucking fascist baby killers. Personally, if my family had the moral fibre of a Dirlewanger Brigade member I would wish them dead. drat, badass (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 2, 2024 13:58
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kiminewt posted:I'd rather the US just sanctioned them to hell so they'll be forced to stop and no one will get killed but hey I have family members in the IDF. I get where you’re coming from because I know a few people on both sides of the war but “no one would be killed” is a weird framing of the stakes involved here.
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Feb 2, 2024 14:25
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https://x.com/mouinrabbani/status/1753272474219716725?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q Rabbani is a senior and prolific I/P journalist/academic, so if he says the IDF appears to be ending its assault on Khan Younis, it may well be. Their kill-tallies are obvious bullshit, but that's not the important bit here.
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Feb 2, 2024 14:46
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Provincial level Canadian politician made some 'interesting' comments in a discussion hosted by B'nai Brith https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2024/02/01/bc-selina-robinson-israel-comments/amp/ quote:In a panel discussion hosted by Jewish organization B’nai Brith on Tuesday, Robinson claimed that before Israel was settled by the modern population it was just a “crappy piece of land with nothing on it.” Our governments are full of the absolute worst people. Full-bore Zionists who completely support the genocide. Classic colonialist narratives to justify the worst crimes imaginable. She has previously spouted the well-worn opinion that really the suffering of Palestinian civilians is Egypt's fault because they won't open their borders to the innocent civilians. So really, Israel has no choice but to keep bombing them since they won't leave.
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Feb 2, 2024 15:27
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I certainly do believe that the IDF killed at least 10 000 military aged males in Gaza
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Feb 2, 2024 15:44
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Google Jeb Bush posted:It's a shot across the bow that the previous "no really, don't use Oct 7 as a pretext to mess with the West Bank" wasn't entirely foolin'. The administration has consistently taken a harsher position towards Israel re the West Bank than Gaza, in large part because it's not run by Hamas. I, uh, disagree with the Biden administration calculus on Gaza, seeing as how a bit of quiet finger wagging with no discernable concrete action has not in fact led to a ceasefire yet, but they're correct that Israel cleansing a largely unrelated region would be a Bad Look. and an atrocity, I suppose https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1753070341277286717 This would have been far more meaningful than four settlers.
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Feb 2, 2024 16:16
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Sorry to hear your family are scum-sucking fascist baby killers. Personally, if my family had the moral fibre of a Dirlewanger Brigade member I would wish them dead. "If I had the moral fiber of an SS unit, I'd want Jews dead" is perhaps a hot take you should mull over a bit more and then never post. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 2, 2024 16:19
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PharmerBoy posted:"If I had the moral fiber of an SS unit, I'd want Jews dead" is perhaps a hot take you should mull over a bit more and then never post. That wasn't his take.
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Feb 2, 2024 16:24
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PharmerBoy posted:"If I had the moral fiber of an SS unit, I'd want Jews dead" is perhaps a hot take you should mull over a bit more and then never post. I'm not defending the statement, but you're reading it backwards. The OP was saying that if their family had the moral fiber of an SS unit, they would wish said family to be dead.
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Feb 2, 2024 16:24
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PharmerBoy posted:"If I had the moral fiber of an SS unit, I'd want Jews dead" is perhaps a hot take you should mull over a bit more and then never post. I don’t think that’s what he said.
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Feb 2, 2024 16:28
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OP could have picked any group to be an example of upstanding moral fiber. They somehow landed on Nazis in their post about wanting members of a Jewish group dead. If op picks anyone else but a Nazi group, this is nothing.
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Feb 2, 2024 16:32
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PharmerBoy posted:OP could have picked any group to be an example of upstanding moral fiber. They somehow landed on Nazis in their post about wanting members of a Jewish group dead. If op picks anyone else but a Nazi group, this is nothing. I think you are definitely misreading here.
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Feb 2, 2024 16:33
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PharmerBoy posted:OP could have picked any group to be an example of upstanding moral fiber. They somehow landed on Nazis in their post about wanting members of a Jewish group dead. If op picks anyone else but a Nazi group, this is nothing. The Israeli Occupation Forces being a “Jewish Group” is certainly an interesting way to define them, and not a definition I’m sure I’d want to use.
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Feb 2, 2024 16:38
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PharmerBoy posted:OP could have picked any group to be an example of upstanding moral fiber. They somehow landed on Nazis in their post about wanting members of a Jewish group dead. If op picks anyone else but a Nazi group, this is nothing. They weren't comparing their own moral fiber to the Dirlewagner Brigade, they were comparing the Dirlewagner Brigade's moral fiber to the IDF's, hope that helps
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Feb 2, 2024 16:49
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It was a poo poo take and a bad post. There's no need to express the views that the poster did on this dead gay comedy forum. Keep it in cspam where the rules don't matter. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 2, 2024 16:53
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