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Private Speech posted:I wonder if my grandad, who was in a concentration camp (while his wife was a forced labourer), would feel this way about the nazis who brutalised them. Well, I would help you and your grandad kill the nazis. Hopefully we can preserve our empathy as we do the needful. Shame their loved ones didn't talk them out of throwing in with that lot. Maybe our enemies will say the same of us, should they claim our lives. Also I hope Israel suffers an absolute defeat. Which means many dead IDF and who knows what past that. Not a lust for snuffing individual lives. Just history. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 3, 2024 06:19
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Nah, I'm annoyed with a lot of poo poo on this thread, but keep it open. I like seeing what people have to say even though I disagree with a lot of it, and it feels very loving arm chair at times, scotch in hand, in a gentleman's drawing room in England or something. It's interesting to hear what others have to say and there are some great posters here with real knowledge, which I appreciate .And there are some assholes. So it's nothing too weird. I like the CSPAM thread mostly because they have more frequent up to date tweets of what's going on, and I find that better, because things move a lot more quickly. As for this : kiminewt posted:I regret bringing my personal poo poo into this. I'm not going to excommunicate my brother and father and every single person I grew up with because they served in the IDF and I feel like most people wouldn't. If you would, perhaps you have a stronger moral fiber than I. Sorry for the poo poo derail. you don't have to sever or excommunicate, but what it sounds like is that you have a bit of admiration for your brother and father in general, and what they do. So more attention is focused on them instead of the IDF and what it does
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Feb 3, 2024 07:47
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BRJurgis posted:Well, I would help you and your grandad kill the nazis. Hopefully we can preserve our empathy as we do the needful. Shame their loved ones didn't talk them out of throwing in with that lot. Maybe our enemies will say the same of us, should they claim our lives. I don't think there is a need for killing, but then I don't support death penalty, whether it's nazis or anyone else. It's just that such crimes should ideally not go unpunished and most definitely not be supported and condoned as necessary or okay, even if it's complicit relatives. Maybe I'm being too idealistic I don't know. Again I don't think this applies universally to the IDF or even the wehrmacht. Like maybe the IDF men who torched the house of random Palestinians for fun should be punished as arsonist and even moreso any settlers who raze houses in Gaza. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 09:53 on Feb 3, 2024 |
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Feb 3, 2024 09:39
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MadSparkle posted:I like the CSPAM thread mostly because they have more frequent up to date tweets of what's going on, and I find that better, because things move a lot more quickly. Same. There seems to be more news updates there. Where this thread always seems to devolve into pointless debates like whether members of an armed force actively participating in a genocide are morally culpable.
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Feb 3, 2024 13:20
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I'm personally alright with this thread, outside the derails like "should you want your family dead?" Precisely because the CSPAM thread exists. This thread pretty much acts like a heatsink; CSPAM thread does all the twitter updates with minimal debate, whereas this thread gets bogged down in heated arguments.
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Feb 3, 2024 15:41
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I like this thread because goons giving advice about family dynamics / general life advice is always a hit.
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Feb 3, 2024 17:19
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Marenghi posted:Same. There seems to be more news updates there. Where this thread always seems to devolve into pointless debates like whether members of an armed force actively participating in a genocide are morally culpable. I also wonder why a thread in Debate & Discussion has actual debate and discussions.
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Feb 3, 2024 17:25
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There's plenty of discussion in the cspam thread, it just tends to be informative stuff about historical context, politics and economy. Much more news and updates from a wide variety of sources too, including hebrew and Arabic language news. Very little pedantry and pointless arguments, but that's what this thread is for. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 3, 2024 21:13
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I don't see any of you making this thread better lmao, you all participate readily in the pedantry or spend a bunch of words uselessly meta-posting about how poo poo it is. In actual news so as to not simply be part of the problem, any celebration of the IDF pulling out of Khan Younis seems to be premature as they're just gearing up to assault Rafah, where they displaced everyone to. I guess they figure continuing civilian slaughter is more important than holding territory or any other operational goals.
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Feb 3, 2024 21:36
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Well it's hard to discuss actual news because the pedants come in demanding unbiased sources before the discussion can be allowed. But then they never seem to mind when it goes off the rail over pointless poo poo. Also yeah this latest news of them attacking where they've told the palestinians to take refuge just shows their genocidal intent. Concentrate the civilians then attack them under the guise of rooting out Hamas.
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Feb 3, 2024 22:49
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Marenghi posted:Well it's hard to discuss actual news because the pedants come in demanding unbiased sources before the discussion can be allowed. Or people don't like it when you "exaggerate" every claim you make. If you just want to make poo poo up I'm sure there are other places for that.
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Feb 3, 2024 22:53
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Cut out the dumb cheap shots at your posting enemies masquerading as feedback.
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Feb 3, 2024 22:56
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socialsecurity posted:Or people don't like it when you "exaggerate" every claim you make. If you just want to make poo poo up I'm sure there are other places for that.
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Feb 3, 2024 22:59
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386-SX 25Mhz VGA posted:Somebody a while back got popped for imprecise language for referring to Israel as a Nazi state. There is all sorts of nebulousness about whether any particular label is accurate for any given state, but people get probed for doing it in this thread when referring to Israel. It's no wonder why this thread is so slow and people only feel comfortable with pointless pedantry here. Seems nice and unambiguous w.r.t. Israel, OP
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Feb 3, 2024 23:12
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If you feel there is some critical piece of news that this thread is 'missing' you should just post it IMO. I do follow a news tracker but almost every day pretty much amounts to 'Israel is still bombing the poo poo out of Gaza and committing crimes against Palestinians with impunity, Hamas has killed between 0 and 2 IDF soldiers' and I don't feel like any of it really changes the overall picture in some critical way. I do think the negotiators are doing good work in progressing a potential deal to free hostages and get a much needed respite for Gaza (there have been some positive noises on that front), but I haven't seen anything to suggest that a long-term cessation of hostilities that leaves Hamas intact is on the table.
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Feb 4, 2024 00:12
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Here is some content then: https://twitter.com/revolutionaryem/status/1753618435370586272 https://twitter.com/typesfast/status/1753595542658220229 It seems that the houthi blockade of ships trying to enter Eilat has had quite an effect. I remember some posters saying they were only doing it for opportunistic piracy reasons, which seems very naive and unsupported by the data. US intervention seems to be having little effect, other than making US and UK ships uninsurable. The US looks to be flailing, doing the only thing they know how to do, which is bomb things, rather than try diplomacy. That might jeopardize their support of the ongoing genocide though, so they'll never do it.
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Feb 4, 2024 00:32
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The fact that Suez transport is down 90% makes me think that it is indiscriminate and opportunistic, or at least that their targeting criteria is so broad as to be meaningless. It seems that almost all ships are avoiding the red sea, not just the small percentage that had anything to do with Israel.
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Feb 4, 2024 00:38
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The potash guild finds these reports deeply disturbing...
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Feb 4, 2024 00:44
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Sounds like unfortunate but unavoidable economic collateral damage in service of attaining their primary goal to me
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Feb 4, 2024 00:45
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The fact that Suez transport is down 90% makes me think that it is indiscriminate and opportunistic, or at least that their targeting criteria is so broad as to be meaningless. It seems that almost all ships are avoiding the red sea, not just the small percentage that had anything to do with Israel. Yes, that's good. They only had to target the correct ships and it has forced other carriers to divert and avoid the Red Sea. This hugely increases pressure on the US and Israel to end the genocide without a single civilian death caused by AnsarAllah in this campaign.
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Feb 4, 2024 01:11
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Still not sure how sending Egypt into recession is going to help but I'm sure it's all part of the plan.
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Feb 4, 2024 01:22
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Israel busiest ports remain unaffected. RIP Sudanese folks I guess.
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Feb 4, 2024 01:23
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For weeks the line people ITT have given is "Ships with no questionable ownership just put 'no contact Israel' in their transponders and go on through" Now presented with the fact that that isn't happening (anymore? At scale? At least some shops were absolutely doing it for a while) we see an immediate shift to "shutting down all traffic is good actually." If they're "only targeting the correct ships," which has been shown to be at least reasonably untrue up thread, whether you believe it's incompetence or just shooting every ship they're able to, it doesn't seem like carriers in unrelated nations share any of your confidence in Houthi ability to deconflict.
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Feb 4, 2024 01:25
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Israel busiest ports remain unaffected. RIP Sudanese folks I guess. quote:JERUSALEM, Dec 21 (Reuters) - Israel's Eilat Port has seen an 85% drop in activity since Iran-backed Houthi militants in Yemen stepped up attacks on shipping in the Red Sea, the port's chief executive said on Thursday. https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...C%20Dec%2021%20(Reuters),chief%20executive%20said%20on%20Thursday. ? All you had to do was Google Israeli ports and houthis
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Feb 4, 2024 01:38
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Kagrenak posted:For weeks the line people ITT have given is "Ships with no questionable ownership just put 'no contact Israel' in their transponders and go on through" Now presented with the fact that that isn't happening (anymore? At scale? At least some shops were absolutely doing it for a while) we see an immediate shift to "shutting down all traffic is good actually." Only targeting the correct ships and stopping all traffic from flowing aren't even remotely mutually exclusive? And both are good. There doesn't have to have been a determination that AnsarAllah is incapable of only hitting the correct ships either. It's a warzone, there are contract and insurance implications and it can be cheaper and easier to plan for a longer trip from the outset than miss a deadline because the ship's crew made the call to avoid the warzone when they arrived. All that requires is a determination that the US isnt capable of deterring the attacks or protecting shipping. Alchenar posted:Still not sure how sending Egypt into recession is going to help but I'm sure it's all part of the plan. I doubt it's part of the plan, but Egyptians overthrowing their comparador government would also be good and help the Palestinians by removing a US puppet from their South? Your Brain on Hugs posted:Shipping insurers don't like to gamble, it's very hard to justify insuring ships with even the remote possibility that they might be fired upon. But who will think of the treats? WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Feb 4, 2024 |
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Feb 4, 2024 01:45
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Kagrenak posted:For weeks the line people ITT have given is "Ships with no questionable ownership just put 'no contact Israel' in their transponders and go on through" Now presented with the fact that that isn't happening (anymore? At scale? At least some shops were absolutely doing it for a while) we see an immediate shift to "shutting down all traffic is good actually." Shipping insurers don't like to gamble, it's very hard to justify insuring ships with even the remote possibility that they might be fired upon. Regardless, seems weird to me to criticize action by an entity actually attempting to enforce the ICJs measures to try and prevent a genocide, and put pressure upon those nations supposedly part of the rules based international order which nevertheless seem to be in flagrant violation of their obligations under the genocide convention. Much more deserving of your scorn would be all those nations who pulled funding from UNRWA.
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Feb 4, 2024 01:48
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Alchenar posted:Still not sure how sending Egypt into recession is going to help but I'm sure it's all part of the plan. The Egyptians are also collaborators with Israel and help oppress the Palestinians.
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Feb 4, 2024 01:56
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Haifa and Ashdod together see twenty times as much tonnage flow through them as does Eilat. Assuming those three ports are the only three in Israel, which they aren't, an 85% drop in traffic at Eilat means a whopping 4% reduction in Israeli port traffic. Meanwhile, 90% of Sudan's international trade flows through Port Sudan. So, yeah, it's clear who is actually taking the brunt of the pain due to the Houthis' indiscriminate targeting of Red Sea shipping. But feel free to tell people to Google things, I guess.
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Feb 4, 2024 02:09
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Its not indiscriminate. If they could project force to Ashdod and Haifa they would. They are doing what they can which is more than the rest of the world is doing for the Palestinians. It's funny for something so "ineffectual" to bring out so much anger and military action.
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Feb 4, 2024 02:12
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Your Brain on Hugs posted:Shipping insurers don't like to gamble, it's very hard to justify insuring ships with even the remote possibility that they might be fired upon. That's not what's being discussed currently, but in fact I have handwritten several letters to my representatives and taken part and direct protests to try to influence the US to reverse that decision. I tried to move the thread onto the subject of how this cut in funding comes as Gaza enters a new phase of famine a couple pages ago as well. hadji murad posted:Its not indiscriminate. If they could project force to Ashdod and Haifa they would. They are doing what they can which is more than the rest of the world is doing for the Palestinians. This is basically the "I'm winning the argument because I'm more calm" (deliberately avoiding the term "calm Hitler" here as I don't want to draw those types of allusions) of international relations. Something can be ineffectual and also be upsetting and result in a military response. See: US strikes on ground targets in Iraq and Syria, which I'm sure you would agree are unlikely to reach their stated aims, yet draw much rage and will almost certainly result in military action. Kagrenak fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Feb 4, 2024 |
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Feb 4, 2024 02:16
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tagesschau posted:Haifa and Ashdod together see twenty times as much tonnage flow through them as does Eilat. Assuming those three ports are the only three in Israel, which they aren't, an 85% drop in traffic at Eilat means a whopping 4% reduction in Israeli port traffic. Meanwhile, 90% of Sudan's international trade flows through Port Sudan. There's been an impact on Haifa and Ashdod quote:According to the data of the Shipping and Ports Authority, it is evident that the war in Gaza also affected the import of vehicles through the Ashdod port, due to the extensive and frequent rocket fire in this area at least in the first weeks of the fighting in the Gaza Strip. Thus, in the fourth quarter of 2023 only about 2,500 vehicles will be imported through the port compared to 43,100 vehicles that were imported through it in the fourth quarter of 2022 - a collapse of 94% https://www.calcalistech.com/ctechnews/article/xdbmjjdwt Plus there's been a impact with Ashdod with Ashdod bound ships being hit by Houthis. I immediately reacted against pretending these ports are not being affected (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 4, 2024 02:20
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hadji murad posted:Its not indiscriminate. Other than being provably so. They've repeatedly launched attacks on ships not going to or from Israel; it's why large numbers of merchant vessels are currently avoiding the Red Sea. hadji murad posted:If they could project force to Ashdod and Haifa they would. Even if they could, I don't think they'd be stupid enough to draw a direct response from an adversary with a history of not particularly caring to moderate its response. Shageletic posted:There's been an impact on Haifa and Ashdod Not from the Houthis. Don't move the goalposts.
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Feb 4, 2024 02:24
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tagesschau posted:
The also in that article is referring to Houthi attacks lol quote:Following the start of the war in Gaza after the Hamas attack on Israel on October 7, the Houthis in Yemen joined the campaign by launching surface-to-surface missiles at Israel and hitting vessels making their way to it with missiles and UAVs, or taking control of the ships in the area of the Bab al-Mandab Strait. This forced the international shipping companies to change the sailing routes to Israel and Europe by bypassing the African continent and entering the Mediterranean Sea through the Straits of Gibraltar, which extends the duration of the sailing to the seaports in Israel by about 20 days.
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Feb 4, 2024 02:34
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Also there doesn't have to be a drop in traffic to cause a severe economic effect when there's a different, more expensive route. That should be obvious.
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Feb 4, 2024 02:36
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Worth noting that Israel's losing billions of dollars, 200,000+ Israelis have been evacuated from the north & Gaza envelope, reservist callup continues to do damage to Israeli businesses, and a shitload of dual citizens have left. 4% sounds small, but this is the exact time where every needle matters.
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Feb 4, 2024 02:45
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The fact that Suez transport is down 90% makes me think that it is indiscriminate and opportunistic, or at least that their targeting criteria is so broad as to be meaningless. It seems that almost all ships are avoiding the red sea, not just the small percentage that had anything to do with Israel. Except its down that much because Insurance Rates are going up because of the attacks. Shippers have way more to lose than a country thats faced a famine and US bombing for a decade now.
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Feb 4, 2024 04:12
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hadji murad posted:The Egyptians are also collaborators with Israel and help oppress the Palestinians. Egypt military dictatorship sold out to western interests some time ago, their citizens are a different story though The older generation there is very much anti-Houthi since they are pro Al-Sisi, the younger generation (I mean around 50 or thereabouts and younger) is very much pro-Houthi Most are watching what's happening in complete frustration The protests having to be sanctioned since the days of the 2011 revolution are creating a lot of anger that's continuing to build and the boycotts of western products are making something of a splash I know it's not absolute results, but let's not act like the Egyptian government is totally on board with anything Israel does, they hold their nose and are whorish for sure, but it's not some kind of demented cheerleading
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Feb 4, 2024 07:32
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MadSparkle posted:Egypt military dictatorship sold out to western interests some time ago, their citizens are a different story though Note also the immediate shift from 'this is good because it specifically targets Israel' to 'indiscriminate and wide ranging regional impacts are fine because everyone who isn't currently firing rockets at Israel is a collaborationist'.
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Feb 4, 2024 09:36
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Alchenar posted:Note also the immediate shift from 'this is good because it specifically targets Israel' to 'indiscriminate and wide ranging regional impacts are fine because everyone who isn't currently firing rockets at Israel is a collaborationist'. That's a shift solely on your part due to you not distinguishing between 'literal targets' and 'the recipients of economic damage.' Find me a single person praising the blockade of the Red Sea who was concerned Europe or Egypt would be harmed as well. WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 09:42 on Feb 4, 2024 |
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Feb 4, 2024 09:39
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tagesschau posted:Haifa and Ashdod together see twenty times as much tonnage flow through them as does Eilat. Assuming those three ports are the only three in Israel, which they aren't, an 85% drop in traffic at Eilat means a whopping 4% reduction in Israeli port traffic. Meanwhile, 90% of Sudan's international trade flows through Port Sudan. I also condemn AnsarAllah for not also blockading ports on the Mediterranean. AA should send one of their carrier groups. tagesschau posted:Even if they could, I don't think they'd be stupid enough to draw a direct response from an adversary with a history of not particularly caring to moderate its response. Yemen is currently attacking shipping with the stated goal of fighting Israel, and are being bombed by the US and their lapdogs for it. At least they're not drawing a direct response from mighty Israel, the country currently losing a war against a concentration camp.
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Feb 4, 2024 10:32
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