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NewFatMike posted:I just pulled the trigger on the Langmuir MR-1 Congrats, at least after your wallet stops smoking. I have some questions about the MR-1 and a few of its capabilities, specifically, but I don’t necessarily want the Langmuir sales department to be hitting me up just yet. My timetable for getting one of these things is likely a year or more out. Would you mind a PM? I can also just ask in the thread, your choice.
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Jan 11, 2024 02:23
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Problematic Soup posted:Congrats, at least after your wallet stops smoking. I have some questions about the MR-1 and a few of its capabilities, specifically, but I don’t necessarily want the Langmuir sales department to be hitting me up just yet. My timetable for getting one of these things is likely a year or more out. Would you mind a PM? I can also just ask in the thread, your choice. Either is good! I’m happy to share my findings publicly. This is a starting reference that according to the forums are “sufficient if aggressive” so I’m thinking I’ll walk it back 15% and see what happens: 
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Jan 11, 2024 03:07
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I'm not sure where the rec for DLC coating for non-ferro comes from. Afaik that only makes sense if you can hit some real high rpm on your spindle.
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Jan 11, 2024 12:25
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Well, I’ll post in the thread, then. I was wondering if this thing can do rigid tapping. I definitely plan on using the threadmilling feature if possible, but I have some ideas for some parts with very fine screws that are probably too small to threadmill, and I would appreciate the controls still being able to handle tapping the hard way. I also was curious if similarly this thing can handle using a boring head. It seems like it should be possible to use a compact one and I was wondering if there are any explicit warnings about it, or if the user base has generally not been able to make it work. I am fine with mostly using the standard interpolation boring setup, but I would like to occasionally do precise bore work in steel/cast iron plate where sub .001” bore size and cylindricity tolerances would be something I would like to be able to actually achieve. I mean, if there are people who use the interpolation boring feature and they are reliably getting something like +/-.0004” diameter and bore cylindricity, I’m more than fine with that, too. I don’t know if this is asking too much of a sub 30k non industrial machine, and if it’s just not in the cards without paying $TEXAS for that ability, that’s fine. My day job is around relatively capable industrial machines in a production environment, so my performance expectations might be unreasonable.
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Jan 11, 2024 19:00
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The machine should be able to handle rigid tapping as long as it has a spindle encoder. There should be no problem installing a boring head on that machine, but if you need better than .001 tolerance, you'll have to look at the entire system. Your spindle runout will need to be small enough, your gantry will have to be sufficiently rigid, the boring head itself will need to be good quality and properly balanced, etc.
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Jan 11, 2024 19:15
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Problematic Soup posted:I was wondering if this thing can do rigid tapping. I definitely plan on using the threadmilling feature if possible, but I have some ideas for some parts with very fine screws that are probably too small to threadmill, and I would appreciate the controls still being able to handle tapping the hard way. It does not look like it supports rigid tapping. From what I saw when I looked into it, the control does not get the spindle encoder feedback. The encoder just goes to the drive. I also saw something that it wouldn't reverse the spindle but that seems odd? If you can reverse the spindle then you should be able to get a tension-compression tap holder and use that for small holes even without rigid tapping. I use tension-compression holders with rigid tapping on my mill just to minimize breakage. Problematic Soup posted:I also was curious if similarly this thing can handle using a boring head. The website shows a boring head being used so that should be fine.
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Jan 11, 2024 23:30
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I guess while we’re here and talking about tapping, I was pointed towards this pneumatic tapper on AliExpress: https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2251832658887880.html I’ve only ever done pneumatic tapping with an arm, does it suck to freehand one of these in a pre drilled hole? My intuition is that the existing hole should guide the tap pretty well, but I’m prone to being a dumbass. E: also got an estimate delivery date of Wednesday, gonna be drat cold so hopefully it’s quick to get inside.
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Jan 12, 2024 01:14
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I'd be sketched out using a pneumatic tapper freehand but I'm a big baby. Getting them started square for the first couple turns can be a little weird and I like to be able to feel it out.
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Jan 12, 2024 05:13
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Problematic Soup posted:I was wondering if this thing can do rigid tapping. I definitely plan on using the threadmilling feature if possible, but I have some ideas for some parts with very fine screws that are probably too small to threadmill, and I would appreciate the controls still being able to handle tapping the hard way. What sizes are you looking at? They're not cheap, but Harvey Tool sells thread mills down to a #00 size. It won't be as fast as tapping but it'd probably be reliable. https://www.harveytool.com/products/thread-milling-cutters---single-form---un-threads And hell, it looks like these folks sell tools down to a #0000 size. I hope I never need to use one of those. https://www.whizcut.com/thread_milling/thread_mills_micro.html
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Jan 12, 2024 05:23
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Karia posted:What sizes are you looking at? They're not cheap, but Harvey Tool sells thread mills down to a #00 size. It won't be as fast as tapping but it'd probably be reliable. Holy crap, I was thinking like 0 or M1 threads. I am surprised they make thread mills that teeny, without being some weird specialist thing with a minmum order quantity and months of leadtme. And I am not really concerned about doing any kind super fast, high throughput work, more odd prototype jobs and things for my own interest. Now I want an excuse to threadmill some 0000 threads.
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Jan 12, 2024 05:50
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MR-1 Update: My friend and I spent Tuesday getting the MR-1 set up and honestly, so far the assembly has been super easy:       We’ll be back at it on Sunday. We’re replacing the stock drain pipes with 1/2” PVC ones to pretty good success. Sunday ought to be the concrete pour, which is super exciting! The instructions are good, easy to follow, and honestly I feel very good about the whole process so far. Parts are well labeled and packed. I’d recommend doing it with a buddy, but it definitely does not require more than that to complete it. All told, I’m probably out an additional $200 which for concrete, mixing tools, PVC, step drill doesn’t feel too steep. Although I *am* eyeing a fresh shop vac because my Home Depot Bucket Head has seen better days… If y’all are interested, I’m happy to keep posting updates, but I can just save it for one big post at the end.
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Jan 27, 2024 01:10
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NewFatMike posted:MR-1 Update: I'm interested in as-it-happens updates.
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Jan 27, 2024 01:51
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Second that. Especially the concrete.
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Jan 27, 2024 02:07
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:I'm interested in as-it-happens updates. Same. I had no idea that the kit included DIY concrete base pouring.
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Jan 27, 2024 02:11
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Hell yeah, well we’ll see what tune I’m singing on the other side of the concrete pour but I remain optimistic. I have a perverse desire to fill a garage with Langmuir machines if it goes well.
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Jan 27, 2024 02:31
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Okay, so the concrete pour did not happen yesterday, but not for lack of trying! We got everything set up, had the Y axis installed, squared, coplanarity determined, all that good stuff. We got around to getting the baseplate in position and it didn't look quite right. We got it down and found a completely repeatable drift of 0.140" (3.5mm) all the way down from one side to another. I got a ticket in with customer support, after a little back and forth and my annotations on the build plate didn't really get things across:   So then I get the guy on the horn and I get it all set up in the baseplate positioners again:  And the guy said, "Holy crap that is not right. I've never even seen anything like that before" so he's sending me some fresh plates. All in a disappointing delay, but maybe the easiest warranty call I've ever had. I should have a tracking number today or tomorrow, then we can resume construction this weekend!
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Jan 29, 2024 21:46
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So, I won a raffle. The prize was a SainSmart 3018 *Mach 3*. I'm so used to grbl controls, it took me a while to get it working ok, but it's still got some issues. I'm assuming mostly software related, since it looks like Mach 3 is a big boy style CNC controller, and this is a hobbyist machine. So I did the smart thing and ordered a board to convert it to grbl. The testing I've done so far is positive. Provided I don't try to use the limit switches for homing. If I set just off of the limit-- points and set that to zero, it works ok. Not going to put a ton of effort into it until I get the new board. Not much point in climbing the learning curve for 3 2 days.
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Feb 3, 2024 00:51
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Mach3 is still hobbyist, it's just a little better than grbl assuming it isn't pirated/whatever and therefore broken.
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Feb 3, 2024 00:57
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Some Pinko Commie posted:Mach3 is still hobbyist, it's just a little better than grbl assuming it isn't pirated/whatever and therefore broken. Gotcha. I'm finding the grbl software availability much better. And I'm very used to it. The Mach software itself burns my eyes. I'm planning to use either Candle or CNCjs, depending on which I end up liking better.
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Feb 3, 2024 01:03
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Having had both the 3018 Mach board and the GRBL board for the Sainsmart 3018, I don’t blame you. The Mach3 setup provided by Sainsmart is very bad. I used GRBL for it for the most part myself. Candle is a very nice application and for the work envelope, you’re not missing much from Mach. Also, funnily enough, turns out that Langmuir Cut Control seems to be based on GRBL, so hopefully the existing DELMIA post will work. Also, I guess build updates, my actual plates were way out of whack. There was 0.140” of error in the hole patterns. Support got a fresh set sent to me, but I had hoped to pour concrete last week. I’ve got a packed week ahead of me, so hopefully I’ll have the pour done this week. It’ll take 5 days to cure, then the epoxy seal. After that it’s motion systems, wiring, and the enclosure! Here’s the old plates: Langmuir support is pretty great on this kind of thing. I’m still waiting for CAD to do machine kinematics in CAM but I’m prepared to take the measurements and design myself, even if I don’t want to. E: I totally forgot I already did the bad plate update 🙃 NewFatMike fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Feb 3, 2024 |
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Feb 3, 2024 01:05
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I should probably clarify I haven't messed with hobbyist cnc stuff that wasn't a 3d printer controller since 2015-ish, but I'd bet good money the Sainsmart setup hasn't been updated since then either beyond editing the flavor text to increment the year in versioning displays to pretend to be current.
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Feb 3, 2024 01:17
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Candle as your GRBL motion controller you can just pick up from Github and customize a few things pulled from the Sainsmart version. It’s overall pretty nice. Beats the pants off like Universal GCode Sender. Overall, I think GRBL is perfectly sufficient for a single tool hobby machine. I’ll take it any day over Shopbot control, that’s for sure. I have no clue why those are so popular around here. If you’re going to be running an ATC, need a tool offset library, or dynamic work offsets, you kinda already know you need a bigger machine 
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Feb 3, 2024 15:44
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Yeah, I'm not looking for fancy... yet. I lost my garage last spring due to a basement flood, so I wasn't able to build my MPCNC Primo last year. This is going to be a good learning experience for the processes before I finally get to build in the spring with the larger area and higher power spindle.
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Feb 3, 2024 16:38
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I'm pricing out a Tormach 1100MX for my garage. Are there any other mills worth considering that meet these requirements: 220V 1Ph, sub $40k, ATC, standard spindle taper (CAT/BT)? Prefer PC based control but not a hard requirement.
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Feb 3, 2024 18:04
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CarForumPoster posted:I'm pricing out a Tormach 1100MX for my garage. Are there any other mills worth considering that meet these requirements: 220V 1Ph, sub $40k, ATC, standard spindle taper (CAT/BT)? Prefer PC based control but not a hard requirement. That's a really big budget for a homeshop. For $39k you could get a new Haas TM-1 with MUCH better specs and quality than the 1100MX, even without options. And they do run on 220V 1 phase, though you'll want to talk to an HFO about what limitations that imposes. All the options I'd generally want are retrofitable (probing, HSM, high pressure coolant, etc) so you could add them later, wait for a sale, or look for a gently used one and still have some headroom to pay for delivery and tooling and so on. Anecdotally I have not heard great things about the 1100MX: my understanding is that it's their attempt to build an entry-level professional machine but still only has consumer-grade quality control and support. The specs aren't even close to a TM-1, and when you kit it out with ATC and coolant it's not much cheaper. I honestly don't understand what market it's going for, it seems hard to justify. I guess it is a lot smaller than the TM, which could be a factor in your garage! And then you'll inevitably have to pay for Haas service calls at some point...
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Feb 3, 2024 18:42
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Karia posted:That's a really big budget for a homeshop. For $39k you could get a new Haas TM-1 with MUCH better specs and quality than the 1100MX, even without options. And they do run on 220V 1 phase, though you'll want to talk to an HFO about what limitations that imposes. All the options I'd generally want are retrofitable (probing, HSM, high pressure coolant, etc) so you could add them later, wait for a sale, or look for a gently used one and still have some headroom to pay for delivery and tooling and so on. Oh wow didnt realize I could get a Haas TM-1 to take single phase with no issues. There's a 2006 TM-1P for only $13K a few hours from here and it comes with some tooling. That has the risks of buying a freshly crashed machine without a ball bar or any other equipment to really evaluate the condition, but its under power and I can bring some tools to test cut with. I am hoping to use this machine for a business building IIoT and motion control systems for automation. The HAAS automation options are stupid (Custom macros only $4K, what a steal!) and it has limited interfaces while the PC based Tormach runs their fork of Linux CNC meaning I can write python scripts to integrate it with other stuff for what I wanna do. $40K is my upper limit and I was hoping to include tooling so new is over budget even with the stripper model. Still for the used one, I could get cutting chips faster probably and then I can build my own manufacturing cell by retrofitting a second machine, which is what I actually want to do. Fake edit: And the used one is missing its Z axis ball screw cover in the pics...yea never mind that means the sheet metal got crashed into and the dude didnt bother to replace it. CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Feb 3, 2024 |
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Feb 3, 2024 19:00
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If I had $40k for my home machine, I’d be getting a Haas instead of a Tormach.
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Feb 3, 2024 19:02
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CarForumPoster posted:I am hoping to use this machine for a business building IIoT and motion control systems for automation. The HAAS automation options are stupid (Custom macros only $4K, what a steal!) and it has limited interfaces while the PC based Tormach runs their fork of Linux CNC meaning I can write python scripts to integrate it with other stuff for what I wanna do. $40K is my upper limit and I was hoping to include tooling so new is over budget even with the stripper model. Still for the used one, I could get cutting chips faster probably and then I can build my own manufacturing cell by retrofitting a second machine, which is what I actually want to do. Yeah, the Haas control doesn't have the same data and automation interfaces you'll get on a proper industrial controller. We got these added to all our machines for data collection: originally they were hoping to stream sensor data at like 10kHz for machine analytics and health analysis, but Haas only lets you pull data at I think like 2 Hz. But I know there are options: IIRC as-standard you can load and execute programs over ethernet or wifi, pull machine data via MTConnect, read and write macro variables, etc. Maybe give Haas a call and try to talk to an automation engineer, there's not much public info but I'd bet they can give you more documentation on what's possible. And besides, a lot of people have Haas machines, so anything you can develop for it would have a lot bigger market than for Tormach. It all depends on your specific needs of course, but I wouldn't give up on the option just because that one specific used machine is in bad shape! EDIT: also since you mentioned custom macros remember that option comes automatically with probing for only $1k more, so pretty much any used machine will come with that. Karia fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Feb 3, 2024 |
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Feb 3, 2024 19:23
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Karia posted:Yeah, the Haas control doesn't have the same data and automation interfaces you'll get on a proper industrial controller. We got these added to all our machines for data collection: originally they were hoping to stream sensor data at like 10kHz for machine analytics and health analysis, but Haas only lets you pull data at I think like 2 Hz. But I know there are options: IIRC as-standard you can load and execute programs over ethernet or wifi, pull machine data via MTConnect, read and write macro variables, etc. Maybe give Haas a call and try to talk to an automation engineer, there's not much public info but I'd bet they can give you more documentation on what's possible. And besides, a lot of people have Haas machines, so anything you can develop for it would have a lot bigger market than for Tormach. Yea, good point, I'll definitely give them a call and check out how much of MTConnect they support. If I can get the main cycle stuff out, thatd be fine. Heck 2Hz could be fine as well depending on whats offered.
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Feb 3, 2024 19:30
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Hobby CNC: My budget is around $40k...
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Feb 3, 2024 19:40
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AlexDeGruven posted:Hobby CNC: My budget is around $40k... cheaper than boats and race cars
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Feb 3, 2024 19:42
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CarForumPoster posted:cheaper than boats and race cars lol, fair point
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Feb 3, 2024 19:44
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NewFatMike posted:If I had $40k for my home machine, I’d be getting a Haas instead of a Tormach. This. I know HAAS machines and they are leagues better than what I've heard about Tormach. I'm jealous though. Edit: The HAAS machines I"? Familiar with had built in tutorials that would walk you through the features set and by the time you were through you would know how to do just about anything it was capable of. Really good setup. Some Pinko Commie fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Feb 3, 2024 |
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Feb 3, 2024 21:18
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Man the TM-1s within "u haul and a pickup truck sized lowboy" distance of me are fukken rough, used. At the risk of being the goon in the well, I might cheap out, get the ATC w/the PCNC440 for $12K develop and prototype the control software and what not, then retrofit a VF2 or similar to have a real machine. By that point I'll have an idea if the business has a chance and can rent an industrial space with proper power. Semi relatedly, has anyone programmed the Bosch Rexroth ctrlX line of Drives/PLCs? Ive been waiting to hear back about a demo for a week now. If you know someone who has used them I'd love to talk to them. CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Feb 3, 2024 |
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Feb 3, 2024 22:11
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I mean, let's not oversell the TM-1. It sounds like CarForumPoster knows what they're looking at, but just in case: from a professional machine tool standpoint, the TM-1 is slow, low-power, nickel-and-dimes you on options, and has crappy and unreliable umbrella toolchangers and belt-driven spindles. As an example of how they cut costs, the Y linear guides are really close together to get more X travel at lower cost and footprint, so as you move X the whole table tends to bend in an arc by nearly 70 arcseconds (and that's without a heavy part on the table). The Haas control is user-friendly but missing some advanced features (especially for 5 axis work). And Haas support and service is extremely variable depending on what HFO you're working with, ranging from really good to absolutely abysmal. In short, the TM-1 is very much the crappy entry-level Haas machines and are the very lowest grade of "professional" machine tools. But for starting a small business without taking on debt the TM isn't a bad choice, provided you're willing and able to work around the problems. If nothing else the 40 taper spindle means you can pick up used tooling for cheap and repurpose it on the next better machine.
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Feb 3, 2024 22:15
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Karia posted:I mean, let's not oversell the TM-1. It sounds like CarForumPoster knows what they're looking at, but just in case: from a professional machine tool standpoint, the TM-1 is slow, low-power, nickel-and-dimes you on options, and has crappy and unreliable umbrella toolchangers and belt-driven spindles. As an example of how they cut costs, the Y linear guides are really close together to get more X travel at lower cost and footprint, so as you move X the whole table tends to bend in an arc by nearly 70 arcseconds (and that's without a heavy part on the table). The Haas control is user-friendly but missing some advanced features (especially for 5 axis work). And Haas support and service is extremely variable depending on what HFO you're working with, ranging from really good to absolutely abysmal. In short, the TM-1 is very much the crappy entry-level Haas machines and are the very lowest grade of "professional" machine tools. I was a CNC machinist before and through college but havent machined anything for a job since 2014. Had a machine shop in my moms garage @ 17. Was a manufacturing engineer at a FAANG briefly before switching to more mech e focused stuff. Its been 5+ years since I machined anything though.
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Feb 3, 2024 22:17
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Karia posted:If nothing else the 40 taper spindle means you can pick up used tooling for cheap and repurpose it on the next better machine. Yea I have a hatred for proprietary tooling after using an 80s vintage Acroloc. Thats one of the things I liked about the MX, BT30 is ubiquitous and I've gotten plenty good MRR on a BT30 Robodrill and Brother.
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Feb 3, 2024 22:23
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CarForumPoster posted:At the risk of being the goon in the well, I might cheap out, get the ATC w/the PCNC440 for $12K develop and prototype the control software and what not, then retrofit a VF2 or similar to have a real machine. By that point I'll have an idea if the business has a chance and can rent an industrial space with proper power. Honestly this is a really good idea if it's enough to get you started. I know I just went on a whole rant about "professional-grade" machines, but since you're not really starting a machine shop per se you've got very different requirements. Go for the minimum investment you can use to check the viability of your business plan and develop your product, you can always spend that money later. CarForumPoster posted:I've gotten plenty good MRR on a BT30 Robodrill and Brother. Just keep in mind that spindle power would probably be the limiting factor here, not spindle taper. The MX is advertised as 2 HP, while a (modern) base Robodrill spindle is 2.5x that continuous.
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Feb 3, 2024 22:45
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Karia posted:Honestly this is a really good idea if it's enough to get you started. I know I just went on a whole rant about "professional-grade" machines, but since you're not really starting a machine shop per se you've got very different requirements. Go for the minimum investment you can use to check the viability of your business plan and develop your product, you can always spend that money later. Yea that robodrill was pretty great for the footprint (7.5HP or 10HP IIRC). And the shop had a haimer tool setter, balancer, heatshrinker all for the 24K BBT spindle. The tool balancer was the poo poo, its pretty crazy how much you can fix the balance an ER collet w/1/2" em just by retorquing it properly cause it went in a bit wonky or there was some debris/coolant. Would regularly run at 150% spindle loads NBD. No idea what 100% was supposed to represent. EDIT: Prob continuous duty cycle but lol none of the Chinese suppliers ever went below that on roughing. CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Feb 3, 2024 |
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Feb 3, 2024 23:28
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I wouldn't restrict yourself to single phase machines. At that budget level, a PhasePerfect digital converter is the way to go. I run a PhasePerfect PT030 in my home shop and it is rock solid. Add a 460 or 575V step up transformer and you have industrial power in your shop. Most of my home shop runs 575V 3phase because used 575V/600V stuff is way cheaper than 220V. Rotary phase converters are too noisy and the idle power is too high so I wouldn't go that way. I had one for a while but got rid of it when the PhasePerfect came up at auction.
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Feb 4, 2024 04:54
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