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Turns out the allegations against the UNRWA were entirely fabricated by the IDF. Surely Biden and all his NATO buddies are going to return funding to the org and apologize for jumping at the chance to assist a genocide right? https://www.thedailybeast.com/israeli-dossier-raises-questions-about-proof-of-un-staffs-oct-7-involvement https://www.channel4.com/news/israels-evidence-of-unrwa-hamas-allegations-examined
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Feb 6, 2024 14:48
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punishedkissinger posted:Turns out the allegations against the UNRWA were entirely fabricated by the IDF. yep (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 6, 2024 14:56
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punishedkissinger posted:Turns out the allegations against the UNRWA were entirely fabricated by the IDF. poo poo like this I tend to assume the IDF is full of poo poo till proven otherwise
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Feb 6, 2024 15:54
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:poo poo like this I tend to assume the IDF is full of poo poo till proven otherwise You always should. They're notorious liars, and always have reason to lie (because their side is awful in every way). Marenghi posted:Interesting article on the Houthi maritime sanctioning. Chinese vessels do not seem to appear very safe, considering that China has started to provide escorts to Chinese ships going through the Red Sea. I don’t think Russian ships even go through the Red Sea very much to begin with, if at all. Ships carrying Russian oil, mainly. But I’m not sure any of this actually gives any credence to that idea. Yeah, they know why they are going for, yeah? That’s not very difficult to believe, because there’s tons of publicly available information for them to use. But then doesn’t that mean that the ships they are going for are INTENTIONAL, then? You would agree that, right? Indiscriminate doesn’t mean, as a note, that the ships attacked are random. Indiscriminate means that they don’t particularly care about the specifics of the target that much. You can still target a specific ship while not having any real restrictions on who you may target. What damages the idea that this is purely rudimentary sanctions on Israel US/UK-affiliated ships is that they have attacked ships unaffiliated with either Israel or US/UK. That is what led people to calling them indiscriminate, which would be especially true if they knew the identities of the ships and their lack of ties to Israel and attacked them anyways. It’s not very good for Egypt or Lebanon either just for the consequences of the attacks. Kchama fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Feb 6, 2024 |
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Feb 6, 2024 16:27
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Have the Houthis actually gotten any stuff from these ships or are they just firing at them? That's the point of (non-ideological) piracy, right? That you get stuff you can use or sell. So where are the stories like "Houthis hand out 50,000 boxes of medjool dates they seized on some freighter" or "Houthis try to sell 95 crates of beanie babies on the black market" etc? To me it seems that the only benefit they're getting here is an enormous PR win throughout the Arab/Muslim/antiZionist world, including within Yemen. Which means they're incentivized to attempt some amount of discrimination in the ships they target. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Feb 6, 2024 |
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Feb 6, 2024 16:45
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Have the Houthis actually gotten any stuff from these ships or are they just firing at them? They've seized some ships and hostages, which are worth quite a lot of money even if the ships themselves are empty. It's been mentioned that there's been a lot of behind-the-scenes negotiations to get them back. I don't know what's been on a lot of the ships, that stuff is usually kept more quiet, except that one was a vehicle carrier (no word on how full it was, but it didn't seem to be terribly full). A lot of these attacks don't seem to be terribly successful as of late might be part of it.
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Feb 6, 2024 16:53
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Kchama posted:They've seized some ships and hostages, which are worth quite a lot of money even if the ships themselves are empty. It's been mentioned that there's been a lot of behind-the-scenes negotiations to get them back. I don't know what's been on a lot of the ships, that stuff is usually kept more quiet, except that one was a vehicle carrier (no word on how full it was, but it didn't seem to be terribly full). I can't find any reporting that they've successfully seized any ship since the Galaxy in November when this started.
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Feb 6, 2024 17:02
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Kchama posted:They've seized some ships and hostages, which are worth quite a lot of money even if the ships themselves are empty. It's been mentioned that there's been a lot of behind-the-scenes negotiations to get them back. I don't know what's been on a lot of the ships, that stuff is usually kept more quiet, except that one was a vehicle carrier (no word on how full it was, but it didn't seem to be terribly full). The Houthis have not captured any ships besides the Galaxy Leader. The attacks have been by missile and drones, they're not capture attempts: they've been doing the same thing they've done for the last decade, only now to targets other than Saudi/UAE-aligned or port-bound vessels. They're attacks by unmanned craft like missiles and drones with no follow-up boarding actions. If you're going to comment on this stuff you should at least try to learn the most basic facts about what is happening first. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 6, 2024 17:20
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Kchama posted:Chinese vessels do not seem to appear very safe, considering that China has started to provide escorts to Chinese ships going through the Red Sea. I don’t think Russian ships even go through the Red Sea very much to begin with, if at all. Ships carrying Russian oil, mainly. Have AA attacked any of China's ships? I tried searching but I couldn't find any specific attacks on their ships. Also, could the Chinese escorts be a reaction to the request from the US that China intervene in the Red Sea to protect shipping? Seems like it would be a savvy move from China to just escort their own ships and claim that they are now protecting shipping and there's nothing else they can do.
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Feb 6, 2024 17:28
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Rubellavator posted:I can't find any reporting that they've successfully seized any ship since the Galaxy in November when this started. I wasn't referring to just since the Galaxy, but it isn't the only successful seizure, as... Pentecoastal Elites posted:The Houthis have not captured any ships besides the Galaxy Leader. The attacks have been by missile and drones, they're not capture attempts: they've been doing the same thing they've done for the last decade, only now to targets other than Saudi/UAE-aligned or port-bound vessels. They're attacks by unmanned craft like missiles and drones with no follow-up boarding actions. If you're going to comment on this stuff you should at least try to learn the most basic facts about what is happening first. The MV Central Park was captured on the 23rd of November. It was quickly recaptured. The Ardmore Encounter was attacked and they attempted to seize it on Dec 13th, but were driven off. The Maersk Hangzhou was another attempted hijacking that was foiled on Dec 30th. The Khalissa was attacked and it seems like they attempted to hijack it but failed to catch up to the boat. That one is ambiguous. The Diamond was approached by small vessels believed to be Houthis but were driven off with warning shots. These are things you could find with just a minor bit of research, so the claim that they haven't attempted any capture attempts besides the Galaxy Leader is false. Failed captured attempts are still capture attempts. ScootsMcSkirt posted:Have AA attacked any of China's ships? I tried searching but I couldn't find any specific attacks on their ships. They haven't yet. China's specifically stated they're only guarding their own ships, though, so it cuts out the "we're pretending to protect everyone" avenue. Despite not having been attacked yet, Chinese shipping hasn't been willing to chance it, and it seems domestic shouting prompted China to give their domestic shipping companies some confidence and reassurance. China's also been shouting at the Houthis and Iran to stop, since it both makes China look bad that their dealmaking between SA and Iran has fallen through, and that their own ally's partners are scaring off their ships.
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Feb 6, 2024 17:37
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ScootsMcSkirt posted:Also, could the Chinese escorts be a reaction to the request from the US that China intervene in the Red Sea to protect shipping? Seems like it would be a savvy move from China to just escort their own ships and claim that they are now protecting shipping and there's nothing else they can do. At present, china is pressuring iran to put a muzzle on the houthis, and are threatening business relations as leverage. They're displeased with the disruption to shipping and want the attacks on merchant vessels to stop, and there's a handful of other issues they have with the current situation on top of that that puts them firmly in the camp of wanting the trade disruption to end.
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Feb 6, 2024 17:43
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We can also look at a statement from not just one guy talking to a paper but the recently published advisory from what seems to be a large shipping industry cross section: https://www.bimco.org/-/media/bimco/insights/2024-02-05_interim_industry_transit_advice_srs_goa.ashx?rev=929b0fe6e2b540a88b15331f5113dfe5 In it they say: shipping industry advisory posted:The Houthi forces appear to be threatening vessels they believe have affiliaƟon / links with Israel, the United States, and the United Kingdom. This is about the position I've come around to in the last few weeks, the Houthi are likely trying to attack related ships but are not particularly great at deconfliction and probably aren't going to take big steps to get better at it. This leads to other parties rerouting shipping through the region no matter what the actual intent of their actions are.
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Feb 6, 2024 17:56
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I'm confused, are the trade disruptions minor and irrelevant or are they serious enough that China is pressuring Iran to resolve them?
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Feb 6, 2024 17:58
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Kchama posted:I wasn't referring to just since the Galaxy, but it isn't the only successful seizure, as... but the Galaxy is the only successful seizure? In your post here: Kchama posted:They've seized some ships and hostages, which are worth quite a lot of money even if the ships themselves are empty. It's been mentioned that there's been a lot of behind-the-scenes negotiations to get them back. I don't know what's been on a lot of the ships, that stuff is usually kept more quiet, except that one was a vehicle carrier (no word on how full it was, but it didn't seem to be terribly full). what other ships are you talking about? some ships? What other ships do the Houthis have that people are doing behind-the-scenes negotiations for?
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Feb 6, 2024 17:58
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punishedkissinger posted:I'm confused, are the trade disruptions minor and irrelevant or are they serious enough that China is pressuring Iran to resolve them? I don't believe I've ever stated they are minor and irrelevant to the world. Who has done that? Pentecoastal Elites posted:but the Galaxy is the only successful seizure? In your post here: They successfully hijacked two ships (the other ship was rescued, but it was still a successful capture), and attempted to seize several more. You claimed that they only ever attempted to hijack one ship, the Galaxy Leader, and all the rest of their attacks were simple missile attacks. Pentecoastal Elites posted:The Houthis have not captured any ships besides the Galaxy Leader. The attacks have been by missile and drones, they're not capture attempts: they've been doing the same thing they've done for the last decade, only now to targets other than Saudi/UAE-aligned or port-bound vessels. They're attacks by unmanned craft like missiles and drones with no follow-up boarding actions. If you're going to comment on this stuff you should at least try to learn the most basic facts about what is happening first. I posted a second capture, and multiple other capture attempts beyond the Galaxy Leader. I know you're trying to go after me for the "ships" and nothing else, but it's also literally true that they seized multiple ships even if the second was rescued before they could get it back to Yemen.
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Feb 6, 2024 18:10
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punishedkissinger posted:I'm confused, are the trade disruptions minor and irrelevant or are they serious enough that China is pressuring Iran to resolve them? China has much more to lose from shipping schedule disruption in the region, so the attacks are more impactful against china than israel. So their forthcoming displeasure is an inevitable consequence that has to be analyzed differently than the question of whether to support these attacks as being noble genocide resistance at their core, or anything along those lines
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Feb 6, 2024 18:16
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Could we maybe relegate discussions of the Houthis to the ME thread? Two million people are slowly starving to death in Gaza and this thread has become a never-ending back and forth about the Houthis. The primary item under contention in that back and forth is whether the Houthi attacks on shipping are even related to the I/P conflict, ergo it's not obviously related.* It's a perpetual derail that impedes discussion about the ongoing genocide. *I believe the Houthis stated motive, I'm just saying that because the relevance of that discussion is a major point of contention, the discussion would be better moved to the other thread that isn't specific to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict/genocide. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 6, 2024 18:45
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Gnumonic posted:Could we maybe relegate discussions of the Houthis to the ME thread? Two million people are slowly starving to death in Gaza and this thread has become a never-ending back and forth about the Houthis. It would be nice if the focus could go back to the ongoing genocide. On that subject: quote:Dancing and flags: Survivors of the Nova party protest with the activists of the Tso 9 movement at the Kerem Shalom crossing https://twitter.com/kann_news/status/1754859946586357943 https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1754816345156284477 https://newsinisrael.co.uk/despite-the-us-demand-the-blockades-in-kerem-shalom-continue/ quote:Despite the rainy weather, even today (Friday) operatives of the Order 9 movement and the families of the abductees arrived at the Kerem Shalom crossing and blocked the truck convoys on their way to the Gaza Strip for supplies and aid to Hamas, this despite the US demand that the aid to Gaza pass "without interruption". fuctifino fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Feb 6, 2024 |
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Feb 6, 2024 18:52
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Kchama posted:I don't believe I've ever stated they are minor and irrelevant to the world. Who has done that? Literally on the last page people were discussing the port of Eilat being shut down and it only being 4% of Israels shipping volume and whether AA attacks are effective or not. If people are going to post in this thread keeping up with at least the past few pages seems important
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Feb 6, 2024 19:29
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National Parks posted:Literally on the last page people were discussing the port of Eilat being shut down and it only being 4% of Israels shipping volume and whether AA attacks are effective or not. That's arguing that it is minor and mostly irrelevant to Israel, not the rest of the world. Just because it may not effect Israel directly very much doesn't mean that it can't effect other countries to the extent that they wish to stop it. China isn't interfering to protect Israel.
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Feb 6, 2024 19:34
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fuctifino posted:It would be nice if the focus could go back to the ongoing genocide. On that subject: I dunno, I feel like if you are deliberately starving children en masse that you're probably the bad guys
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Feb 6, 2024 21:26
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Ms Adequate posted:I dunno, I feel like if you are deliberately starving children en masse that you're probably the bad guys They don't see them as humans, and think killing even baby animals (in their eyes) is fine and justified. It is the evil that thinks itself holy.
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Feb 6, 2024 21:28
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If those people were blocking a bulldozer looking to level a Palestinian home, instead of aid trucks, it's established Israeli jurisprudence that it would be fine and legal to run them over, as a reminder.
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Feb 6, 2024 21:31
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We've been here before but it sounds like an agreement in principal at least may be on the table for some type of ceasefire. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-presses-onslaught-gazas-khan-younis-us-pursues-ceasefire-quest-2024-02-06/ Reuters posted:In a statement Hamas said it responded "in a positive spirit, ensuring a comprehensive and complete ceasefire, ending the aggression against our people, ensuring relief, shelter, and reconstruction, lifting the siege on the Gaza Strip, and achieving a prisoner swap." We'll see I guess but I feel like this is the third time statements like this have made their way out in the last couple of months.
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Feb 6, 2024 23:40
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Kagrenak posted:We've been here before but it sounds like an agreement in principal at least may be on the table for some type of ceasefire. I think there's been an issue where individual Hamas leaders would respond positively to media outlets, but then backtrack because there are a lot of Hamas officials cut off from the world that hadn't weighed in yet. If this somehow pans out hopefully even a temporary ceasefire makes further negotiations go smoother. Who knows if Bibi can be brought to heel though.
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Feb 7, 2024 00:47
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Rumors I've seen suggest that Hamas is demanding a permanent ceasefire & a tangible commitment to rebuilding Gaza, and that they are red lines for a full hostage release. The former is a nonstarter for Israel, because it would essentially be a declaration of defeat. The latter would be an easy field goal for Biden to repair some of his decimated base support, but I wouldn't be surprised if it gets rejected on budget nonsense, anxiety over Hamas being involved in rebuilding, or the wealthiest world power that controls the global currency demanding neighboring arab states pay for Israel's slaughter instead.
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Feb 7, 2024 00:56
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The hostages are the only leverage Hamas has, and it looks like they're smart enough to demand nothing less than a permanent ceasefire with guarantees, the release of the vast majority of Palestinian prisoners, and some kind of rebuilding plan. Any such deal will guarantee that Ben-gvir and Smotrich blow up the coalition however. Yair lapid and Benny gantz have indicated that they would join the coalition to get the hostage deal over the line if that was the case, so the question would be if netanyahu thinks he can survive politically after such a deal. Getting all the hostages back would be a big win politically, but with a permanent ceasefire, there's no way he could say that he's defeated Hamas. This would probably cause a pretty big split, as up until now the people have been more or less united behind the dual goals of hostage rescue and revenge on Hamas. If the first goal is done and the second looks like it won't happen any time soon, and Hamas gets to rebuild, what happens in Israel politically?
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Feb 7, 2024 01:11
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Neurolimal posted:Rumors I've seen suggest that Hamas is demanding a permanent ceasefire & a tangible commitment to rebuilding Gaza, and that they are red lines for a full hostage release. A different Reuters article has this to say about the timelines Hamas is asking for: quote:Egyptian security sources told Reuters on Tuesday that Hamas' response showed flexibility, asking for a specific timeline for the ceasefire to end after the Muslim Eid al-Fitr holiday in early April. If this turns out to be the case I think Israel may jump for it if it comes with a hostage release. I also think it may be enough time for their population's demand for vengeance to cool enough that they don't have the appetite to go back to a full war footing. But this is all being very hopeful I know.
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Feb 7, 2024 01:13
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The nominal argument / headline pitch by the assholes blocking aid is that they're relatives of hostages and people supporting those relatives who are demanding hostage return before aid is allowed in. Add the usual caveat where I can't speak, read, or google Hebrew so I'm reliant on English language reporting. It's possible there is Israel-facing reporting and messaging that is... more aggressive. The Biden administration complained about the blockade (and general insufficient streamlining of humanitarian aid). At some point after that Israel cleared out the protesters. e: also afaict the protesters are not settlers in the usual west bank sense, they live in southern Israel on the Israeli side of the basically-agreed border. It bothered me particularly when referring to the kibbutzes that are both vaguely leftist (and probably not fielding too many people to block food shipments and do a crime against humanity) and predate the modern state of Israel, but in general I think it's misleading to use "settler" language to conflate those towns and villages with West Bank colonization. Which is what people are doing when they use the term colloquially here. Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Feb 7, 2024 |
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Feb 7, 2024 01:24
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Your Brain on Hugs posted:The hostages are the only leverage Hamas has, and it looks like they're smart enough to demand nothing less than a permanent ceasefire with guarantees, the release of the vast majority of Palestinian prisoners, and some kind of rebuilding plan. There's been some chatter about the US/UK granting recognition to a Palestinian state, or allowing a UN resolution to pass without a veto. Maybe the threat of allowing that to happen will make Bibi bend in the hope that he can return to the policy of "slow siege without headlines". His allies in the states are already furious that the state department is considering it though, so he might take his chances. Saudi Normalization is also being held up as a carrot if Bibi plays ball. That plus getting the hostages back might be enough to survive at home, but he might think he can drag this out until Trump returns and takes the reins off altogether.
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Feb 7, 2024 01:24
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Biden and netanyahu are definitely two of the worst possible people you could have in charge in a situation like this. Netanyahu because he needs to extend the war at all costs to stay in power and even potentially to stay out of prison. Biden because he is a uniquely rabid Zionist, even moreso than anyone is surrounded by. By all accounts he simply will not listen to the growing calls by even his most senior advisers to even call for a ceasefire, let alone put any pressure upon Israel whatsoever, and seems completely willing to blow the election and any shred of respect the US has in the non-western world, over supporting Israel to hilt.
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Feb 7, 2024 05:23
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Your Brain on Hugs posted:Biden and netanyahu are definitely two of the worst possible people you could have in charge in a situation like this. Netanyahu because he needs to extend the war at all costs to stay in power and even potentially to stay out of prison. Biden because he is a uniquely rabid Zionist, even moreso than anyone is surrounded by. By all accounts he simply will not listen to the growing calls by even his most senior advisers to even call for a ceasefire, let alone put any pressure upon Israel whatsoever, and seems completely willing to blow the election and any shred of respect the US has in the non-western world, over supporting Israel to hilt. Do you think Biden is any more pro-Zionist than any other [post WW2] US president? I’m asking because, IMO, that would not seem to fit a description of “uniquely”. And I don’t think he’s anymore pro-Zionist than other presidents 
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Feb 7, 2024 05:42
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Certainly more than any other Democrat I could think of, and most republicans. He was to the right of Reagan when it came to Israel during the 80s, some of the things he said even gave AIPAC lobbyists pause. Both Reagan and Bush senior put actual pressure on Israel when they felt they were getting out of hand. Biden will never do this even though netanyahu has only contempt for him.
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Feb 7, 2024 05:47
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Your Brain on Hugs posted:Certainly more than any other Democrat I could think of, and most republicans. He was to the right of Reagan when it came to Israel during the 80s, some of the things he said even gave AIPAC lobbyists pause. Both Reagan and Bush senior put actual pressure on Israel when they felt they were getting out of hand. Biden will never do this even though netanyahu has only contempt for him. Biden hasn’t tried to push pressure? There’s been lots of news reports on the Biden administration trying to get Israel to be less genocidal freaks, though not to much success as you can tell. It’s really unfortunate though that the only other option for president is going to be Donald “I’LL INVADE TO DROWN THE GAZANS IN BLOOD!” Trump.
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Feb 7, 2024 06:01
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Kalit posted:Do you think Biden is any more pro-Zionist than any other [post WW2] US president? I’m asking because, IMO, that would not seem to fit a description of “uniquely”. And I don’t think he’s anymore pro-Zionist than other presidents https://www.reuters.com/world/us/i-am-zionist-how-joe-bidens-lifelong-bond-with-israel-shapes-war-policy-2023-10-21/ quote:'I am a Zionist': How Joe Biden's lifelong bond with Israel shapes war policy quote:FORGED OVER DECADES quote:Entering national politics in 1973, Biden spent the next five decades forging his policy positions - iron-clad support for Israel's security coupled with backing for steps toward Palestinian statehood - as he served as U.S. senator, Barack Obama's vice president and finally president. quote:As vice president, Biden often mediated the testy relationship between Obama and Netanyahu. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone as Pro-Zionist because he's old as dirt and has been running interference for Israel his entire career. Guy was literally protecting Bibi while he was slagging off the Obama Administration.
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Feb 7, 2024 06:03
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Kchama posted:Biden hasn’t tried to push pressure? There’s been lots of news reports on the Biden administration trying to get Israel to be less genocidal freaks, though not to much success as you can tell. It’s really unfortunate though that the only other option for president is going to be Donald “I’LL INVADE TO DROWN THE GAZANS IN BLOOD!” Trump. That's not pressure, that's a fig leaf to make liberals still feel like they can support Biden and say they're good people. It's PR. In no sense has the Biden admin put any kind of actual pressure upon Israel. Netanyahu has repeatedly told his own coalition that he knows how to deal with Biden, and that there's no worry about Biden keeping them from doing anything they want. He's completely correct in saying this. It is indeed unfortunate that it looks like the only other potential president for the next 4 years is trump. Which is why I've said in the past, if the only two potential leaders of your country are fully supporting and enabling genocide, perhaps it's time your country was no longer the global hegemonic power. Your Brain on Hugs fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Feb 7, 2024 |
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Feb 7, 2024 06:11
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Kalit posted:Do you think Biden is any more pro-Zionist than any other [post WW2] US president? I’m asking because, IMO, that would not seem to fit a description of “uniquely”. And I don’t think he’s anymore pro-Zionist than other presidents Far from the norm. He displays a level of pro Zionism that exudes external control from his service to the American public. Especially with the whole Overton window shift on immigration to help Ukraine, and Israel. HouseofSuren fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Feb 7, 2024 |
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Feb 7, 2024 06:13
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https://twitter.com/KSAmofaEN/status/1755020860836962666 uh, wew, that's kind of a huge red line to lay out in plain english the al-aqsa flood appears to have achieved its major strategic goal of killing saudi-israeli normalization stone dead
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Feb 7, 2024 07:44
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IF the saudis are serious. but if they, are good for them
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Feb 7, 2024 08:28
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Kchama posted:Biden hasn’t tried to push pressure? There’s been lots of news reports on the Biden administration trying to get Israel to be less genocidal freaks, though not to much success as you can tell. It’s really unfortunate though that the only other option for president is going to be Donald “I’LL INVADE TO DROWN THE GAZANS IN BLOOD!” Trump. I don’t put reports of pressure on the same level as continued arms transfers and the genocide continuing. They aren’t pressuring, they are lying to us.
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Feb 7, 2024 08:31
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