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It’s the production paradox: it’d be far better to remake Crusade with better CGI and less network sabotage, or remake Legend of the Rangers without the punchy weapons pod, but nobody is going to spend money to remake a failed show (yes, BSG, but the original show was initially a ratings hit until being counterprogrammed). Conversely, there’s little reason to remake B5 in the sense that the original show succeeded, but that success is the best “argument” for a reboot. I do think there’s interesting stories to tell in this setting, but it’s unclear how much can get changed before the show stops feeling like B5. If you keep Sinclair, do you drop Sheridan entirely? How much is gained by making Ivanova-Talia a thing earlier and more explicitly? Do you drop the S5 telepath crisis plot entirely, especially if you have the chance to play it out with Ivanova and not Lyta? Do you keep the characters/cultures the same and just change the circumstances, or do you reimagine the Minbari (say) by having more prominent worker-caste characters in the story from the start? Do you try having N’Grath again in S1? Do the Soul Hunters play a larger role or drop from the story? Do you delay the Shadows waking up and make that part of Sheridan’s story instead of having it be his off-screen wife?
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Feb 4, 2024 16:29
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They could even go with the original Sinclair plan to have the wife being taken by the Shadows be someone who was already introduced beforehand, raising the stakes.
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Feb 4, 2024 17:00
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I think you have a fundamental contradiction. If you're going to retell the story, then you tell the same story without radically altering it, similar to the way people recast and reinterpret Shakespeare plays without changing the lines. But going down paths they didn't go down because actors left means telling a new story, which is a fundamentally different thing than retelling. It's going to be a radically new story if you explore something huge like Sinclair leaving. Also a lot of good things came out of actors leaving, which you'd have to get rid of - General Hague being killed offscreen on his way to meet with Sheridan ratcheted the tension in the Earth civil war arc, which I think actually improved the series over what they would have done if the actor hadn't snubbed B5 for ST. Ivanova's contract dispute leading to her not being in S5 led to Lochley's entire appearance, while there are certainly things to criticize about S5 I think removing Lochley entirely would be a radical change taht wouldn't make things much better. You also have the problem of trying to cast actors to fill roles that were largely great because of the original actor. Someone like Sheridan or Franklin is easy to recast - I like both actors and their performance, but someone else could easily play the commander struggling with how to respond to a corrupt government then leading an alliance, or a doctor struggling with stim addiction and bad medical ethics. But trying to recast Londo and J'kar would likely lead to failure IMO, what makes those two entertaining is a lot of specific things about their performance, and I think it would be really hard to catch that same magic again. Narsham posted:It’s the production paradox: it’d be far better to remake Crusade with better CGI and less network sabotage, or remake Legend of the Rangers without the punchy weapons pod, but nobody is going to spend money to remake a failed show (yes, BSG, but the original show was initially a ratings hit until being counterprogrammed). I think JMS had an easy scapegoat in being able to cry 'network sabotage' about Crusade. I thought crusade had some fundamental issues that can't be blamed on network sabotage(the 'look we have the 4 basic D&D classes represented' schtick made me roll my eyes, for example) and Legend of the Rangers had even more ('why did the organization dedicated to being invisible and gathering information suddenly decide on a no-retreat policy'). Things really came together well for B5, but I think that Crusade and LOTR demonstrate that there's no guarantee that a series will be good just because JMS has a free hand in doing it.
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Feb 5, 2024 00:16
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I don't think a reboot is usually conceived as retelling the same story with different actors.
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Feb 5, 2024 01:41
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How could Garibaldi's story have aued out differently if his hair didn't walk off set.
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Feb 5, 2024 02:18
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Worth remembering that JMS has said a few times now that he's not looking to just tell the story again. According to him, he's interested in exploring the same themes in the same setting, but not planning on taking the same paths. There's a bunch of different ways that could end up, but people worrying about Kosh this or Delenn that might be getting a bit too specific. There may not even be Shadows and Vorlons. The concept of a space station being the focal point of universe-defining events in the face of an overwhelming status quo could go a number of ways. That does raise another question of why even make a reboot then, why not just make a new show. I dunno. Depends how much of the setting he wants to use, and there is always going to be a boost from old fans.
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Feb 7, 2024 21:40
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I would rather JMS just make an entirely new sci-fi space drama that is a whole new universe and characters.
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Feb 7, 2024 22:07
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Trouble is that a lot of his non-Babylon 5 work has (on the whole) not been well received.
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Feb 7, 2024 22:29
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I will give you a steely glare for the honor of Ninja Assassin.
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Feb 7, 2024 23:58
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You know what's weird I'm noticing on rewatch is there being no regular character whose job is "fixing poo poo". It's just really rare that you wouldn't have a character like that. I guess your don't have a mechanic character in something like The West Wing but it would be fun if you did
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Feb 8, 2024 00:59
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Yeah, true. I never thought of the fact that there wasn't a Chief Tyrol/Scotty/Geordi on B5 when I was watching it. That duty usually fell to Garibaldi, iirc.
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Feb 8, 2024 01:06
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Yeah, true. I never thought of the fact that there wasn't a Chief Tyrol/Scotty/Geordi on B5 when I was watching it. That duty usually fell to Garibaldi, iirc. I think a lot of that is that b5 is a science fiction show where none of the characters are interested in doing science. That is to say, there’s really no element of exploration in any of what our principals are ever doing. And once you remove that element, the job of “station repairman” becomes a lot less interesting, because it means that character basically only ever exists to solve a weekly macguffin as needed. In B5, the plot is never about the station being somehow broken down or malfunctioning or defective. Occasionally that comes up to complicate some other situation, but that’s about it. The show is too busy making plots about other things to waste a weekly filler episode on That Time The Atmosphere in the Alien Sector turned to Chlorine, or “the Day The Station Stopped Spinning” and the heroic efforts of the engineer who fixed the gravity by strapping a giant magnet to a white star and flying it in circles around the station or whatever. It just kind of becomes extraneous. DS9 got around this by making the engineer our Regular Guy NCO stand in, and by really pushing the frontier elements of DS9 sitting on the wormhole to unknown space, but it isn’t actually a problem that needs solving, unless you’re trying (as DS9 did), to plug a square starship crew peg into a round station crew hull. You can in fact have the maintenance and operations staff be faceless extras. Chevy Slyme fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Feb 8, 2024 |
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Feb 8, 2024 02:04
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I think that Franklin as another technical job that doesn't often really have much bearing on the politics of the day already struggles to make his way into episodes, to the point that it makes me wonder why it's such a regular fixture for Star Trek to always have a doctor character. Technically Ivanova would probably be the fixing-things person, since she's the one in charge of all day to day station operations of the station, and the show seldom dips into the particulars of her day to day when there's not something else coming up. It'd probably take the form of her ordering around a lot of unnamed extras plus Corwin. I think that may even be one of the things that the pilot movie set itself to do more with that just got kind dropped, there was some kind of scene with Takashima ordering around a bunch of people around to maneuver the station when it was in distress.
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Feb 8, 2024 04:56
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Zorak of Michigan posted:I will give you a steely glare for the honor of Ninja Assassin. Assassin, of ninjas
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Feb 8, 2024 09:33
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SlothfulCobra posted:I think that Franklin as another technical job that doesn't often really have much bearing on the politics of the day already struggles to make his way into episodes, to the point that it makes me wonder why it's such a regular fixture for Star Trek to always have a doctor character. I feel that a bunch of sci-fi shows, both Star Trek and otherwise, have found themselves stuck with a doctor character more because McCoy was such an integral part of the original series than because the show actually needs one, and a failure to realize that McCoy's role isn't to be 'the doctor', it's to be the down-to-earth regular guy.
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Feb 8, 2024 10:01
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That's a pretty solid read. That would make Garibaldi the McCoy of B5, which I think actually fits extremely well.
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Feb 8, 2024 11:55
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Q_res posted:That's a pretty solid read. That would make Garibaldi the McCoy of B5, which I think actually fits extremely well. Good grief, that's a take. McCoy and Spock in Trek were explicitly created to be voices of human compassion and pure reason sitting on Kirk's shoulders to inform his decisions. If there's one thing that Garibaldi isn't, it's compassionate - or logical, for that matter.
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Feb 8, 2024 12:55
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Compassion specifically, no, but I was looking at it from his more adversarial interactions with Spock. They're both emotionally driven, argumentative everymen that are very sure about how right they are.
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Feb 8, 2024 13:23
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One thing I've noticed in this watch through is that there are a lot of Minbari in the background wearing orange and grey jumpsuits. They're presumably worker caste but I don't think that's ever stated, or why there's so many working on B5.
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Feb 8, 2024 14:41
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I didn't notice that, is it in S1-2 or just from S3 onward where B5 is independent? It would make sense if B5 cut off from Earth (and later independent from Earth) hired Minbari workers or Minbar/Delenn sent them as a favore. IIRC there weren't any aliens striking in the Dockworker's strike episode in S1, if it wasn't an all or mostly human operation from the start you'd expect to see some non-humans there.
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Feb 8, 2024 16:33
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Worker Caste will presumably be along for the ride with Minbari trade vessels, as well as being attached to the diplomatic mission
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Feb 8, 2024 17:02
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Pantaloon Pontiff posted:I didn't notice that, is it in S1-2 or just from S3 onward where B5 is independent? It would make sense if B5 cut off from Earth (and later independent from Earth) hired Minbari workers or Minbar/Delenn sent them as a favore. IIRC there weren't any aliens striking in the Dockworker's strike episode in S1, if it wasn't an all or mostly human operation from the start you'd expect to see some non-humans there. I'm currently watching season one. Just watched Deathwalker and one of the people looking on as Nathoth thrashes her is a Minbari in an orange and grey jumpsuit. There were a few in nearly episode before that.
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Feb 8, 2024 17:05
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Angry Salami posted:I feel that a bunch of sci-fi shows, both Star Trek and otherwise, have found themselves stuck with a doctor character more because McCoy was such an integral part of the original series than because the show actually needs one, and a failure to realize that McCoy's role isn't to be 'the doctor', it's to be the down-to-earth regular guy. Stephen has a decent character arc, but it all pays off with the line "this is the kind of conversation that can only end in a gunshot" And it just makes sense that a big space station would have a medical unit, people tend to get stabbed or shot there all the freaking time!
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Feb 8, 2024 17:08
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Jedit posted:Good grief, that's a take. McCoy and Spock in Trek were explicitly created to be voices of human compassion and pure reason sitting on Kirk's shoulders to inform his decisions. If there's one thing that Garibaldi isn't, it's compassionate - or logical, for that matter. the split in B5 is more idealism vs. pragmatism, Sheridan's got people like Delenn and Lorien on one shoulder encouraging him to listen to prophecy and fight the war in the heavens, and Garibaldi and Ivanova on the other shoulder reminding him of all the little people living their daily lives on B5 The Chairman fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Feb 8, 2024 |
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Feb 8, 2024 17:17
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Worker caste, religious caste, warrior caste, the truth is all the Minbari extras are straight out of the central caste
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Feb 8, 2024 17:30
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You could do a show like B5 without a doctor in the central cast, but I think you'd have to go out of your way to do it. You definitely need some kind of medical establishment on a city of a quarter million people that is also a trade hub that invites traders with unfamiliar biology who have been to unusual places, plus it's also a military base that does combat operations. Since it's a dramatic TV show, the main characters are going to have medical issues that need treatment, military operations are going to include more 'we've got to save him' moments than in real life, and the diplomats and visitors are going to have injuries and/or medical issues. Since there are aliens, you are going to need someone to study and discuss alien anatomy and biology at some point. Some plot lines directly need a doctor, like the curing/execution machine or examining the 'telepaths rigged to pilot shadow ships'. It's possible to do those with guest star doctors and background staff, but I think those stories and situations all work better with a recurring doctor in the main cast. On a side note, it's interesting to me that some people on here say that B5 has US-style healthcare, because I don't think that's actually the case. We see that B5's medical facilities charge money to foreigners, but pretty much every medical system does that - if you're going to a European country with UHC and you're not from there (or somewhere that has a reciprocal treaty), you're going to pay to have an operation. They don't treat lurkers for free (we see Franklin diverting supplies for unofficial free clinics), but my read is that lurkers are basically 'illegal immigrants who can't actually be deported'. We don't see any of the things I'd consider US-specific - none of the medical facilities are portrayed as for profit, insurance is never mentioned, and when bills are mentioned they're something affordable that can be reasonably paid rather than exorbitant things that have to be negotiated down. Notably during the S1 episode on labor relations where dockworkers are on strike, medical coverage isn't part of what is mentioned in the negotiations AFAIR, while health plans are basically always part of major US union negotiations. My read is that B5 offers free (or 'token charge') healthcare to permanent legal residents and possibly diplomats (it's either free or it quietly bills their government), and charges reasonable (not modern-US-style inflated) prices for anyone traveling through or deliberately seeking treatment (like the family in Believers). Lurkers aren't considered legal residents so aren't eligible for regular treatment, and have to rely on underground help like Franklin's free clinics.
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Feb 8, 2024 18:06
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Eighties ZomCom posted:One thing I've noticed in this watch through is that there are a lot of Minbari in the background wearing orange and grey jumpsuits. They're presumably worker caste but I don't think that's ever stated, or why there's so many working on B5. You know, for as long as I've been a fan of the show I don't think I've ever noticed this before, and I can't search up an image. Would it be possible for you to post a screenshot? I'm very curious, given that otherwise the Minbari Worker Caste gets nearly completely ignored up until the civil war arc.
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Feb 8, 2024 19:11
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Worker Caste will presumably be along for the ride with Minbari trade vessels, as well as being attached to the diplomatic mission Trade probably falls into their area of responsibility, exports goods and resources that they have an excess of to gain currency that can be used to alleviate resource shortfalls through imports. It's certainly more their area than it is the area of the Warrior or Religious castes.
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Feb 8, 2024 19:20
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How many votes on the grey counsel do the landlord caste get, because I have some tenants in the Euphrates sector who are starting to piss me off
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Feb 8, 2024 19:24
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The church has been historically one of the biggest landowners, so 3->2 as the series progresses
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Feb 8, 2024 19:28
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John Wick of Dogs posted:You know what's weird I'm noticing on rewatch is there being no regular character whose job is "fixing poo poo". It's just really rare that you wouldn't have a character like that. We just had like one episode that was about that janitor in season 5. I really liked that one.
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Feb 8, 2024 20:23
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I said come in! posted:We just had like one episode that was about that janitor in season 5. I really liked that one. It gets a bit starry eyed at the end, but yeah me too
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Feb 8, 2024 20:33
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Yeah, I can agree with it getting too hero-worship-y at the end, but I also really liked that one. Also I remember liking Byron's little bit in it even though I'm usually not a fan of him.
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Feb 8, 2024 20:42
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Lemniscate Blue posted:You know, for as long as I've been a fan of the show I don't think I've ever noticed this before, and I can't search up an image. Would it be possible for you to post a screenshot? I'm very curious, given that otherwise the Minbari Worker Caste gets nearly completely ignored up until the civil war arc.  Okay so looking more closely it's less of a jumpsuit and more of an apron. There's more of them in previous episodes too. Edit:  From Mind War, and a second one passes by a couple of seconds later but I can't get a good screenshot of them.  From Parliament of Dreams Eighties ZomCom fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Feb 8, 2024 |
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Feb 8, 2024 22:29
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Eighties ZomCom posted:
Yeah, i think those are less B5 dockworkers/maintenance guys, and more “Minbari freighter crew passing through customs”, but, regardless, definitely worker caste.
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Feb 8, 2024 23:57
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There are some Minbari in the Transport Pilots Association (s03e03 cold open).
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Feb 9, 2024 00:01
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The Minbari were part of the Babylon project so I don't think it's super weird to think there'd be worker caste as part of the station crew.
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Feb 9, 2024 00:07
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I'm always impressed with how well the outfits fit into the world while on close examination clearly being made on the cheap and not tailored to one person. That 'apron' is clearly adjustable and looks to be something mass produced (maybe a real world protective apron) over what looks like a dyed-orange karate gi, but in shot it definitely reads as some kind of Minbari working outfit.
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Feb 9, 2024 00:17
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Not having enough budget for "world building" is good - the viewer is given glimpses of things that are part of the setting but not important to the story.
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Feb 9, 2024 01:02
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Eighties ZomCom posted:
Thank you!
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Feb 9, 2024 02:01
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