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Turin Turambar posted:About the VisionPro, I would like for some serious reviewer to eventually quantify how good is the screen. I read some random comment saying it was better than their nice oled tv, which sounds kinda close to BS? Ifixit did a teardown where they give you the numbers. Those numbers are ridiculous, of course, but in terms of pixels-per-degree it's not as good as a regular desktop 4K display, and what it actually looks like depends a lot on what you're doing. A bunch of nerds on HackerNews report that mirroring a Mac display looks surprisingly bad and it seems like it's pretty low framerate too, probably 30fps because it's using AirPlay. Even when using native Vision Pro apps though the foveated rendering has some weird artifacts and isn't great at rendering big blocks of text.
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Feb 9, 2024 04:29
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Black August posted:"We put the bare minimal effort possible into making a game for an entirely new form of entertainment, and it didn't immediately please the shareholders with vast fortunes! Burn it." Why would they take an enormous risk investing huge amounts of money in a game targeted solely at an extremely marginal platform? The Playstation and the Xbox both required the manufacturers to take on that risk (in the form of bankrolling a bunch of games) in order to get the platform off the ground. VR has had years and years to prove itself to have profoundly limited appeal though, even after Meta has sunk tens of billions into it (although a lot of those investments were misguided to say the least) and Valve released their very well polished tech demo game. It's hard not to be pessimistic about the future of VR, these days. I read this short NASA news story from back in 2004 the other week and it's... kind of depressing, honestly. They were very optimistic and figured the field had improved vastly since the early days of the 1980's: Whatever happened to ... Virtual Reality? (NASA Science News, June 2004) posted:"The technology of the 1980s was not mature enough," explains Stephen Ellis, who leads the Advanced Displays and Spatial Perception Laboratory at NASA's Ames Research Center. VR helmets and their optics were too heavy. Computers were too slow. Touch-feedback systems often didn't work. The only thing consistently real about VR were headaches and motion sickness--common side effects of '80s-era helmets. Now we're another twenty years down the road from 2004 and the problems are the exact same as they were in 2004 and in 1984: you still get motion sick and the user interfaces still suck. Motion sickness issues and fatigue have seemingly been given up as a lost cause, they're just mitigated in various more or less janky ways, mostly involving restricted movement. Apple's gesture interface is enormously better than anything that has come before, but it still sucks and it's downright unusable for text entry. What use is VR if it's effectively just strapping a monitor to your forehead? There's been half a century of effort put into this by now and at some point you have to kinda stop and ask if the problems might actually be fundamental to the way the technology works. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Feb 9, 2024 |
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Feb 9, 2024 04:52
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TheFluff posted:Now we're another twenty years down the road from 2004 and the problems are the exact same as they were in 2004 and in 1984: you still get motion sick and the user interfaces still suck. Motion sickness issues and fatigue have seemingly been given up as a lost cause, they're just mitigated in various more or less janky ways, mostly involving restricted movement. Apple's gesture interface is enormously better than anything that has come before, but it still sucks and it's downright unusable for text entry. What use is VR if it's effectively just strapping a monitor to your forehead? There's been half a century of effort put into this by now and at some point you have to kinda stop and ask if the problems might actually be fundamental to the way the technology works. The technological problems actually have been solved, which I think is enormously encouraging. The problem is people keep trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. The motion sickness issues can largely be addressed by using hand based locomotion, and it's true moving your body physically is fatiguing compared to sitting there, it's also incredibly rewarding, so encouraging people to move their bodies is actually a really big plus. Trying to force it to be a computer extender is the problem. It genuinely is bad for that, but that's not like, a problem to be solved. It should just be used for what it's actually good for, which is putting people in a virtual world that they can engage with, along with being able to interact with other people in those worlds in ways that feel similar to doing it in real life
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Feb 9, 2024 05:28
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Lemming posted:The technological problems actually have been solved, which I think is enormously encouraging. The problem is people keep trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. The motion sickness issues can largely be addressed by using hand based locomotion, and it's true moving your body physically is fatiguing compared to sitting there, it's also incredibly rewarding, so encouraging people to move their bodies is actually a really big plus. If this is true, why did several Vision Pro reviewers report getting nauseous when just putting windows up in a pass through environment even with that device's exceptionally low latency and high visual fidelity? It's primarily an AR device, arguably the best ever released, and it still has these problems. How much of the solution you're seeing is just survivor bias? TheFluff fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Feb 9, 2024 |
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Feb 9, 2024 05:37
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TheFluff posted:If this is true, why did several Vision Pro reviewers report getting nauseous when just putting windows up in a pass through environment even with that device's exceptionally low latency and high visual fidelity? It's primarily an AR device and it still has these problems. How much of the solution you're seeing is just survivor bias? The AVP doesn't have exceptionally low latency; they're just claiming it does.
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Feb 9, 2024 05:39
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Zero VGS posted:The AVP doesn't have exceptionally low latency; they're just claiming it does. Do you have any numbers on this? Very happy to dunk on the AVP but that's not a claim I've seen elsewhere.
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Feb 9, 2024 05:42
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Yeah, does it make sense for AAA to make expensive vr games? Are vr games selling very well? I know nerds who blow money on dumb things (multiple star citizens lol), but I don't know any buying vr games regularly. If their headset isn't forgotten in a closet than they just play the same couple of games they bought years ago. The one vr fanatic I know has spent tons of money on hardware, but just plays sims that he bought cheap on steam sale. More hardware doesn't always equal more software sales. For that matter this thread is more about vr vibing than buying the games that do come out. I'm buying my first vr games again after a 3 or 4 year break. The success stories in vr seem to be tiny team indie who get very lucky. Otherwise it wouldn't surprise me if the big Oculus games or HL Alyx didn't make much money but they served their purpose to move hardware. Back when the Rift came out I know Ubisoft had some enthusiastic teams working on original games (a werewolf, star trek, and a bird one don't recall if there were others), but I'm guessing those didn't do that well either. As it is I'm surprised they made an original Assassin's Creed game (which seems to be well regarded elsewhere) when they have such an absurd back catalog. The RE4VR/SkyrimVR/etc model seems a fine enough one to get vr games that aren't tech demos. Especially if they are less half rear end than SkyrimVR (I dunno how RE4 is) as there are plenty of teams who know vr properly at this point to bring in and retrofit your game. You could make a pretty cool game wandering around the already built world of AC:O just doing the open world gameplay stuff even if you had to cut all the story content. You could spend years and years rereleasing the Far Cry games with a decent VR implementation. Mods like that Jedi Academy one are impressive enough on their own.
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Feb 9, 2024 05:42
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TheFluff posted:Do you have any numbers on this? Very happy to dunk on the AVP but that's not a claim I've seen elsewhere. Multiple reviewers complained about image persistence, OLED black smear, passthrough camera ISO lag, and other poo poo. Even if the motion-to-photon is fast, any of those will spoil it.
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Feb 9, 2024 05:45
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God drat do I wish more games would copy Until you Fall's combat. Its so drat fun. Probably the best melee combat game I've played.
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Feb 9, 2024 05:46
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Speaking of motion sickness, after I played and loved Half Life Alyx I tried the Half Life 2 VR mod and it made me immediately nauseous. I was cautiously optimistic after playing Outer Wilds on a Quest 2 using Steam Link and have given HL2 another go and it's loving great, I guess the resolution or the refresh rate or both were good enough to help get me past whatever was causing my stomach to lurch when using a Vive, and honestly I'm perfectly fine (for now) with just getting to re-experience some of my old favorite games in VR. Now it's true that catering to me, Jerusalem, might not be the optimal business strategy for many multi-billion dollar companies... but what's the harm in them giving it a go for the next 20-30 years and see how it works out for them!?! Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 05:49 on Feb 9, 2024 |
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Feb 9, 2024 05:46
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TheFluff posted:If this is true, why did several Vision Pro reviewers report getting nauseous when just putting windows up in a pass through environment even with that device's exceptionally low latency and high visual fidelity? It's primarily an AR device, arguably the best ever released, and it still has these problems. How much of the solution you're seeing is just survivor bias? It has really bad ghosting (I dunno if that's the correct term, but it's basically whenever you turn your head. Everything gets smeared an extremely noticeable amount). Different people are sensitive to different aspects, and I dunno why they made that specific tradeoff (from what I understand they went with a higher persistence display to make everything brighter), so that's likely a factor there. That kind of motion sickness isn't really a problem on other headsets, where you're in a fully virtual environment, so it likely has something to do with some of the deliberate decisions they made. Just because it's the most expensive doesn't mean they maxed out all the sliders for everything
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Feb 9, 2024 05:51
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To be clear I don't think VR is dying or anything like that. It has carved out a niche for itself, but it remains a niche. Game sales have been very underwhelming for years, PCVR is a blessing to simulator nerds but few others care (except about Alyx), PSVR2 is dead in the water after Sony fumbled it so badly, and Meta's made a big embarrassment out of themselves in a variety of ways. It's going to be a long time before anyone is keen to invest big in VR game development, I'd expect.
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Feb 9, 2024 05:56
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TheFluff posted:To be clear I don't think VR is dying or anything like that. It has carved out a niche for itself, but it remains a niche. Game sales have been very underwhelming for years, PCVR is a blessing to simulator nerds but few others care (except about Alyx), PSVR2 is dead in the water after Sony fumbled it so badly, and Meta's made a big embarrassment out of themselves in a variety of ways. It's going to be a long time before anyone is keen to invest big in VR game development, I'd expect. I don't disagree with that, I would just argue that the software ecosystem is the barrier to adoption at this point. If there were more things that fully took advantage of the medium, I think the market would be pretty huge. I don't think large studios are really capable of the doing the kinds of things you need to do to push a new medium, though, so it's gonna have to come from relatively smaller players making more modest investments. This isn't meant to be an indictment of AAA studios, per se. Just as an organism they aren't equipped towards making things that are more experimental or require a stronger vision, they have to spend their resources on larger projects that have a more certain ROI.
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Feb 9, 2024 05:59
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We need hideo kojima to make a VR game
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Feb 9, 2024 06:03
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Kwolok posted:We need hideo kojima to make a VR game https://store.steampowered.com/app/650510/ZONE_OF_THE_ENDERS_THE_2nd_RUNNER__MRS/ ?
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Feb 9, 2024 06:04
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TheFluff posted:If this is true, why did several Vision Pro reviewers report getting nauseous when just putting windows up in a pass through environment even with that device's exceptionally low latency and high visual fidelity? It's primarily an AR device, arguably the best ever released, and it still has these problems. How much of the solution you're seeing is just survivor bias? A combination of lying for views and what we call 'Englishman's Stomach'
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Feb 9, 2024 06:09
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VR won’t grow too much as a niche until they come out with reasonably priced, highly effective haptic feedback gloves, or other better immersion technology, to replace controllers. That might take 10 years. Even then, it will remain a niche. What the technocrats are betting billions of dollars on is that AR glasses will replace smartphones. Most people will still only use them to text, browse social media, and play candy crush, but they’ll monitor and influence people even more effectively. That is also 5-15 years out, and all current products are just tech demos and toys to defray the R&D cost. A home PC in 1990 was also mainly a tech demo toy for nerds, but a niche of people like us still loved them.
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Feb 9, 2024 06:23
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Only produced by Kojima, not designed/directed. Did PSVR work with P.T.?
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Feb 9, 2024 06:25
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Lemming posted:It should just be used for what it's actually good for, which is putting people in a virtual world that they can engage with, along with being able to interact with other people in those worlds in ways that feel similar to doing it in real life A software issue I'd love to see "solved" is making it seamless and effortless to invite people into your space (or go into others' spaces) and be able to see and look at each others' stuff and do poo poo together, even if it's just chat with one another. The Quest has this further along than most with the concept of basically Xbox parties where you can have essentially a VR conference call that persists across apps or games, but it's still a lot clunkier overall than I'd like to see.
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Feb 9, 2024 06:28
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Lemming posted:The motion sickness issues can largely be addressed by using hand based locomotion, and it's true moving your body physically is fatiguing compared to sitting there, it's also incredibly rewarding, so encouraging people to move their bodies is actually a really big plus. See I absolutely hate hand-based locomotion, I can handle teleport and stick/head for hours but most hand based locomotion (except Jet Island for some reason, possibly because it's more like directed stick locomotion) makes me instantly sick within about 20 seconds. It's almost like magic. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 09:35 on Feb 9, 2024 |
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Feb 9, 2024 09:31
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Lemming loves hand based locomotion because he made gorilla tag but it's my #1 most hated form of locomotion
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Feb 9, 2024 09:37
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Kwolok posted:Lemming loves hand based locomotion because he made gorilla tag but it's my #1 most hated form of locomotion Pro-Loco in games by raptor labs (stand out specifically) = Best loco motion ever. World grab just owns bones.
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Feb 9, 2024 09:54
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Does anyone else literally never get motion sickness? I can also read in the cabin of a pitching yacht
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Feb 9, 2024 10:05
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Zero VGS posted:Only produced by Kojima, not designed/directed. I thought Kojima did direct Second Runner? Wasn’t the first game the one he only produced?
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Feb 9, 2024 10:35
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ScreenDoorThrillr posted:Does anyone else literally never get motion sickness? I can also read in the cabin of a pitching yacht 
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Feb 9, 2024 10:59
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https://x.com/migueldeicaza/status/1755738912557821957?s=20 If any of y'all are somehow still on WMR, don't install any more major Windows updates.
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Feb 9, 2024 11:02
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I'm surprised nobody's tried building an open-source app for the WMR headsets yet.
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Feb 9, 2024 11:06
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Kazy posted:If any of y'all are somehow still on WMR, don't install any more major Windows updates. I only switched from WMR recently, that's kindof sad. The G2 was pretty decent and still has some advantages over my current Quest 3 in terms of latency, fidelity and not needing to transcode the output.
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Feb 9, 2024 11:13
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ScreenDoorThrillr posted:Does anyone else literally never get motion sickness? I can also read in the cabin of a pitching yacht I've never been on a yacht, but I've played pavlov vr and I could walk around freely on day 1 with no issues. Never had any issues since either. Clearly my brain is amazing
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Feb 9, 2024 11:55
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Is there any cheaper alternative to the HP's Reverb G2 V2 cable? Or failing that, any tips on how to increase the longevity of the cable? I'm on my second replacement and so far I've spent half as much on the cables as I did on the headset. If this one breaks I'm going fully wireless while I wait for the Index 2.
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Feb 9, 2024 13:23
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The last two weeks I've been playing more VR. But... I've been playing some Puzzling Places DLC that I bought time ago, which has to be one of the most casual games lol. I have Racket Club and Dungeons of Eternity pending to be started next week.
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Feb 9, 2024 13:29
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Jerusalem posted:Speaking of motion sickness, after I played and loved Half Life Alyx I tried the Half Life 2 VR mod and it made me immediately nauseous. I was cautiously optimistic after playing Outer Wilds on a Quest 2 using Steam Link and have given HL2 another go and it's loving great, I guess the resolution or the refresh rate or both were good enough to help get me past whatever was causing my stomach to lurch when using a Vive, and honestly I'm perfectly fine (for now) with just getting to re-experience some of my old favorite games in VR. Collateral Damage fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Feb 9, 2024 |
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Feb 9, 2024 13:48
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The other thing that would be a huge game changer for VR, but is also a catch-22, is content. There is a vast untapped well of filmmaking techniques that can only happen in VR, and could be a big draw if there's a hot new horror show or something. But who would make content for the device nobody has, instead of the one everyone has? Apple is the one headset maker that also makes content, so I see a little reason to be hopeful there, but not much.
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Feb 9, 2024 14:09
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TheFluff posted:Ifixit did a teardown where they give you the numbers. Those numbers are ridiculous, of course, but in terms of pixels-per-degree it's not as good as a regular desktop 4K display, and what it actually looks like depends a lot on what you're doing. A bunch of nerds on HackerNews report that mirroring a Mac display looks surprisingly bad and it seems like it's pretty low framerate too, probably 30fps because it's using AirPlay. Even when using native Vision Pro apps though the foveated rendering has some weird artifacts and isn't great at rendering big blocks of text. Last years Varjo xr-4 seems to be higher resolution/PPD
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Feb 9, 2024 14:19
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Kwolok posted:Lemming loves hand based locomotion because he made gorilla tag but it's my #1 most hated form of locomotion oh he made gorilla tag? then we should probably listen to him about what will/wont sell on vr over ubisoft
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Feb 9, 2024 15:15
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Between trying out some of the experience tracks in Synth Riders and finally putting some real time in with Into the Radius (just hit security level 4), I’ve gotten super hooked on VR again. I loved my old Vive back in the day, but the Quest 2/3 is just soooo much easier to pop on and play. I feel like the Quest 3 (with a battery headstrap, better facial interface, and controller grips) really hits the perfect conform zone for me. I’d really like to go back and finish HL:Alyx on the Q3 (I played about halfway through back when it came out on my Vive), but I’m struggling to get it running in a playable state through Virtual Desktop - anyone have any pointers or settings I can try? FYI my PC is running a 1080.
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Feb 9, 2024 15:17
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Is the issue game performance or VD performance? If it's the former then make sure you haven't cranked up any render settings in SteamVR and set the in-game settings down, and if it's the latter then try manually capping the bandwidth it uses. Perhaps try the built-in PC streaming on the Quest instead of VD.
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Feb 9, 2024 15:45
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Muscle Tracer posted:The other thing that would be a huge game changer for VR, but is also a catch-22, is content. There is a vast untapped well of filmmaking techniques that can only happen in VR, and could be a big draw if there's a hot new horror show or something. But who would make content for the device nobody has, instead of the one everyone has? Apple is the one headset maker that also makes content, so I see a little reason to be hopeful there, but not much. I just can't help but think that as long as the technology only lets you enjoy watching stuff in isolation, it doesn't feel like an attractive proposition for filmmakers. Especially for proper movies where there's still a real desire to get people into theatres. I think one thing Apple's maybe doing right is probably how it's encouraging people to record in spatial video on their phones. I can see that bite sized, personal content being a better fit for VR.
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Feb 9, 2024 16:03
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The Grumbles posted:I just can't help but think that as long as the technology only lets you enjoy watching stuff in isolation, it doesn't feel like an attractive proposition for filmmakers. Especially for proper movies where there's still a real desire to get people into theatres. You just make a VR app with a virtual theater, and shared space with other users. (One of my bugbears with the VRChat video worlds is they all limit themselves to just bigscreen TV's, and generally with right-in-your-ear stereo audio. You can make it as big as you want! Give me an IMAX experience with positional surround sound, because guess what? AVPro Player will absolutely do 7.1 Surround Sound!  )
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Feb 9, 2024 16:15
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Neddy Seagoon posted:You just make a VR app with a virtual theater, and shared space with other users. also subtitles don't really work at all in the vrchat worlds. Also rip the watch movies and chill world
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Feb 9, 2024 16:25
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