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Felinoid posted:So she was a completely different person and can't remember anything about it, except she was still in control and can remember it. They're really gonna keep trying to ride this vague borderland where they have a foot on each side, aren't they? Has Kerrigan ever actually reasserted that claim that she remembers nothing about it after making that claim initially to Valerian? Because if not, I suspect she was bullshitting because she wanted to be over and done with Valerian's poo poo.
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Feb 11, 2024 05:18
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oh yeah i totally dont remember any of that mass murder stuff. trust me bro
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Feb 11, 2024 05:49
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BlazetheInferno posted:Has Kerrigan ever actually reasserted that claim that she remembers nothing about it after making that claim initially to Valerian? Because if not, I suspect she was bullshitting because she wanted to be over and done with Valerian's poo poo. She hasn't repeated it as a flat-out claim, but her interactions with Raynor, Iszha, and Abathur actually hold to it. Now Jim she might have wanted to lie to, but the zerg? What would be the point? That being said, reviewing it makes it seem like they're trying to play it as Kerrigan gradually remembering more over time, which lines up with her having repressed it. Fingers crossed they actually keep that consistent (or as much as they can, given the malleable order of events). E: Meanwhile whether it was her or not remains a dispute between everyone else in the story saying it wasn't, and how Kerrigan actually acts. Felinoid fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Feb 11, 2024 |
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Feb 11, 2024 05:53
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So there's several things to like here. Finally, at the end of this whole train, we get some further insight into the Primal Zerg through Dahaka. He's interesting because (much like that big Trex bastard) he's a Zerg that exists outside the standard of Primal Leader and Pack. We don't know WHY he collects essence if he doesn't want to integrate it, evolve and dominate like the others, but I would assume he's something akin to Abathur, a creature that's evolved to emphasize curiosity and intellect and simply likes to experiment with the pieces he can find. A Zerg that's found a different ecological niche than Apex Predator is cool. We're also told that, though the other Pack Leaders fear Kerrigan, they can't back down from her. If they were capable of submitting to a greater power rather than challenging it, they wouldn't have become Pack Leaders in the first place and would still be Zerglings or whatever. They are forces of nature, and will comport themselves as such. I would imagine that Kerrigan sees that kind of obstinacy as admirable. In a more fully-realized version of this story, this could be the lesson she had to learn from the Primal Zerg. Forget the whole "remove Amon's influence," thing, that's just Nuts And Bolts Plot crap, it doesn't have any greater meaning than it has to happen given the scenario they wrote of the Space Zerg being Manchurian candidates. Kerrigan took a big L from Mengsk back in Umoja. He has a lot more power than her, and even if her plan to reconstitute the swarm seems reasonable to us, these missions could have been a prime opportunity to show that it was flawed from the start. Instead of having her curbstomp the Primal Zerg, design the missions to be more objective based and make it difficult for a player to beat them in a straight fight. Give the Primals a big debuff when they step onto Creep or something, so they'll struggle to destroy your bases but you in turn can't just rampage through their territory like they're nothing. Have Kerrigan start to doubt herself and her quest, so that when she turns to the Zerg Origin Pool she's embracing what it means to be a Primal Pack Leader: never backing down no matter how bleak the odds, evolving every time you survive a fight, not allowing doubt in your strength or your purpose to even exist in your universe. Abathur's attempt and failure to comprehend exactly what Kerrigan has become is interesting. I like that after all the poo poo he's talked about Primal Zerg, he's been presented with the ultimate culmination of their style of evolution and found something beyond him. At the same time, I can't help but wonder WHY it's beyond him. Abathur's vision of Zerg evolution is cold, calculated, conservative in execution but forward-looking in theory. The Primal's is eternally progressive but also reactionary, devoid of any kind of vision but therefore unbound by any limitations. In what way is Kerrigan's new form the pinnacle of their philosophy? We're not told because I suspect Blizzard didn't have any idea on how to express such dichotomy. It's left at vague mysticism. Pretty lame. I think the thing that's both the most intriguing and most disappointing is that little conversation where Kerrigan says she feels like she's become one with the other Zerg, able to feel them as extensions of herself rather than simply command them. In a way, you could read this as the synthesis I was looking for between Pack and Swarm. Kerrigan is now a Primal Zerg, however half-baked that transition might be. Yet the Swarm did not abandon their identity and also become Primals, each an individual with the potential to fight, kill and evolve up the chain. Through their link to Kerrigan, they maintain the unity of purpose necessary to build hives, play off each other's strengths and achieve things beyond eating each other on a backwater planet. They are now both Swarm AND Pack. At least, that's one way of looking at it. It's not exactly well explained. And none of this really helps how awkward and lame the big climax of the last mission was. I'm not surprised.
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Feb 11, 2024 05:57
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Sanguinia posted:Abathur's attempt and failure to comprehend exactly what Kerrigan has become is interesting. I like that after all the poo poo he's talked about Primal Zerg, he's been presented with the ultimate culmination of their style of evolution and found something beyond him. At the same time, I can't help but wonder WHY it's beyond him. Abathur's vision of Zerg evolution is cold, calculated, conservative in execution but forward-looking in theory. The Primal's is eternally progressive but also reactionary, devoid of any kind of vision but therefore unbound by any limitations. In what way is Kerrigan's new form the pinnacle of their philosophy? We're not told because I suspect Blizzard didn't have any idea on how to express such dichotomy. It's left at vague mysticism. Pretty lame. I want to address another part of your post too, but technically it involves bringing up information that Dehaka hasn't given us yet, so I'll hold off - but on this point, my headcanon is simply that Kerrigan is simply telling him not to even try - and psionically forcing the idea that she's now beyond his comprehension, whether it's true or not, onto his mind; we do see her eyes flare up with Psychic power as she says it, though it's also possible that's little more than a psychic leash-tug. It's less about whether he can... and more that she absolutely 100% does not want him poking and prodding at her in an attempt to figure her out. Would you?
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Feb 11, 2024 06:23
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BlazetheInferno posted:I want to address another part of your post too, but technically it involves bringing up information that Dehaka hasn't given us yet, so I'll hold off - but on this point, my headcanon is simply that Kerrigan is simply telling him not to even try - and psionically forcing the idea that she's now beyond his comprehension, whether it's true or not, onto his mind; we do see her eyes flare up with Psychic power as she says it, though it's also possible that's little more than a psychic leash-tug. It's less about whether he can... and more that she absolutely 100% does not want him poking and prodding at her in an attempt to figure her out. Yeah, that makes sense in terms of in-universe logic for the character's behavior, but its not very satisfying as a reader. If they had some kind of specific thematic vision for how Kerrigan's change represents the Primal ethos, I really would have wanted to hear it.
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Feb 11, 2024 06:30
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Fun Fact: Primal Kerrigan's model received four major updates compared to the WoL version: 1. Her posing was redone, which mostly just made her wings more compact since she's supposed to be a usable as part of your army instead of a boss unit 2. Her psychic radiance was changed from a smoky orange to a more electric purple that shows throughout her body instead of just from her eyes and hands 3. Her face was remodeled to be more feminine And last but not least, 4. She received fully modeled toes. 
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Feb 11, 2024 07:22
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All right, who let Quentin Tarantino on the SC2 dev team
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Feb 11, 2024 07:38
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Now I understand everything. The addition of Zerg Toes to the Zerg Organic High Heels makes every bad plot decision worth it in comparison.
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Feb 11, 2024 07:57
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"I have high heels but have no toes" So that's what that spa session was about.
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Feb 11, 2024 09:55
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Sanguinia posted:So there's several things to like here. And for Just a small fee of $350 Essence Per Month you too can experience the gains of joining "The Dahaka Method". Stop being a Zergling, Evolve your understanding and become the Ultralisk you were always meant to be if the Swarm wasn't holding you back!  Join with other like-minded Primals and stop living your life like a Swarmer. Live the life YOU deserve, stop taking advice from guys like this  And start living your life by "The Dehaka Method" 
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Feb 11, 2024 10:36
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VostokProgram posted:oh yeah i totally dont remember any of that mass murder stuff. trust me bro I still think that's the least sensical part of all the nonsense. Like, as far as I can tell, the whole point of the corruption of the old Queen was to make Kerrigan less than fully culpable for her actions, so she could be the hero of this story without having to reconcile with her past actions. That's lazy as hell, but at least coherent. But then they wrote her as having been comfortably dormant between Brood War and Wings of Liberty, until she suddenly resurfaces and slaughters billions. The only reason we're given is a single line that she knows who "Dr. Narud" is and what he's up to. I honestly don't remember if or when his real identity is revealed, but it's pretty obvious that he's working on some scheme of Amon's. Unless there's some upcoming twist that Duran was actually working against Amon this whole time, Kerrigan commited a genocide in the writing of Starcraft II in order to sabotage Amon, but also it's not her fault because she was Amon's puppet at the time. That does not pass the sniff test.
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Feb 11, 2024 10:55
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omg dehaka has a dumb little goatee 
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Feb 11, 2024 11:17
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There's not a lot to Dehaka, but that means there's not a lot to hate either. He's okay. His character design is pretty ugly, having lost what appears to be two of four arms leaving him with two mismatched ones, and would have looked a lot cooler with six balanced limbs. But I respect that weird, misshapen and haphazard is in the spirit of what Primal Zerg are meant to be about. One thing I do appreciate, that's going to become a bit of a theme as Kerrigan picks up more hangers-on, is that she's leading like a pack leader. Dehaka isn't her mindslave, he's agreed to serve her because fighting for her gives him more opportunities to grow and thrive, just like we can presume the primal zerg do for their pack leaders. And when he has grown and thrived enough to challenge her he will try to kill and eat her. He is not making a secret about this and she doesn't particularly object to it, being confident that she will stay ahead of him (and anyone else she picks up that thinks the same way). I actually quite like this! For one thing, it's something actually meaningful to have picked up from Zerus, a genuine influence for the primals to have had on the swarm. For the Zerg as an identity, it allows the swarm to be less brittle. Part of the whole hivemind identity means having a head that can be cut off, and for all their power when the Overmind was killed it left the swarm disorganised and vulnerable. Both the UED and Kerrigan managed to subvert and control it, with Kerrigan obviously winning out in the end. We do start with a bit of a sense of something similar happening with Kerrigan's swarm, with lone broodmothers left guarding small chunks of territory - not always successfully. If they'd leaned harder into the idea that the Swarm was broken without Kerrigan at the helm, then this change of principles to having potential successors waiting in the wings would represent a new adaptation for the Zerg. And for Kerrigan as a character, you can see this as a response to all of the things that had gone wrong for her over her life. She's been betrayed by people she loved and had her hopes dashed by people who failed to protect her. Consciously surrounding herself with people who are open about exactly when and why they'll turn on her would mean she's taking control of her own downfall. Rather than the usual story arc of learning to be vulnerable and trust people - something she is not reasonably in any position to do - she's instead making sure that the threats to her are managed and accounted for. It's a fun direction for someone who climbed to the top of the world to ensure her own safety and still found it wasn't enough. It would be nice if the writing actually worked with any of these ideas.
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Feb 11, 2024 13:19
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TheOneAndOnlyT posted:The question I keep wanting to ask is "but what makes the pool so special?" Like, I get why it's symbolically extremely important to the primal zerg, because it's one of the most important parts of their history, but the narrative makes zero attempt to explain why this pool is the Pool of Power Overwhelming. Zeratul and the Ancient One just say "it has power, no nobody has ever actually gained power from this place but really it has power we swear" and everyone goes along with it. But, like, why? What gives it power?  Slurp juice pool strong source of essence, use many on one
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Feb 11, 2024 15:08
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I feel like one thing that makes Kerrigan a bit less interesting as a character in HOTS is that Raynor had to deal with a bunch of, supposedly, equals, who could tell him he was being a moron or disagree with him. Kerrigan's surrounded by a bunch of psychically dominated thralls and yes-creatures, so there's no real... conversations going on? No one ever challenges her in any way or forces her to explain herself or anything.
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Feb 11, 2024 22:13
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well that at least will be somewhat handled by Dehaka another character who shows up later. I can't remember how much pushback they really give her, but they are at least not part of the psychic chain of command
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Feb 11, 2024 22:20
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Unless there's some upcoming twist that Duran was actually working against Amon this whole time, Kerrigan commited a genocide in the writing of Starcraft II in order to sabotage Amon, but also it's not her fault because she was Amon's puppet at the time. That does not pass the sniff test. Yeah this part seems a bit confusing. By all accounts Duran, Kerrigan, and also the Tal'darim but I don't remember if we know that yet were all working under Amon's influence but were clearly acting at cross purposes in WoL.
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Feb 11, 2024 22:27
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PurpleXVI posted:I feel like one thing that makes Kerrigan a bit less interesting as a character in HOTS is that Raynor had to deal with a bunch of, supposedly, equals, who could tell him he was being a moron or disagree with him. Mind, in sc1 they did had someone to disagree with (Kerrigan, funnily enough) - and in bw, she had both Duran (not actually loyal) and a whole bunch of non-zerg people to
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Feb 11, 2024 22:32
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dehaka being a lumpy beaten-up weirdo works for him, though. like yeah he definitely doesn't look cool or powerful but he's alive, and given the context of the character, that's perfect. in other appearances he demonstrates how cool and dangerous he can become and i think that really works too - the concept of the primal zerg is that they're always evolving and adapting to the situation, so for once it makes sense that a character is wildly different in alternate appearances
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Feb 11, 2024 22:34
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It is very funny to me how the supposed main character of this campaign is repeatedly upstaged by her far more interesting supporting cast. And we've yet to meet my personal favorite of the bunch. Legacy has a similar problem, but in that case it's more that one particular supporting character completely dominates any scene he's in. 
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Feb 11, 2024 22:43
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Bloody Pom posted:It is very funny to me how the supposed main character of this campaign is repeatedly upstaged by her far more interesting supporting cast. And we've yet to meet my personal favorite of the bunch. And Artanis has the personality of cardboard.
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Feb 11, 2024 22:57
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that happens in a lot of stories though. almost everyone on the ship is cooler than picard, hell even tychus and tosh are more interesting than raynor. its sort of inevitable in this kind of story - the main character's job is to be the generalist leader who brings the team together. the supporting characters get to be extra cool because they're all niche players who excel at one thing
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Feb 11, 2024 22:59
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BisbyWorl posted:
That's not a terrible reason. Good thing we can now examine Primal Kerrigan and give amon-cleanse to the rest of the swarm. BisbyWorl posted:
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Feb 11, 2024 23:35
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Yes, I am different. I am my own master. When the xel'naga artifact made me human again, It cleansed me of Amon's influence. And that allowed me to become... something greater.
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VostokProgram posted:that happens in a lot of stories though. almost everyone on the ship is cooler than picard, hell even tychus and tosh are more interesting than raynor. its sort of inevitable in this kind of story - the main character's job is to be the generalist leader who brings the team together. the supporting characters get to be extra cool because they're all niche players who excel at one thing Agreed. Main character is usually the most bland one, especially in video games. Also Kerrigan is arguably the most interesting of SC2 main characters, but mostly because Raynor is boring and Artanis... who the hell is Artanis?
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Feb 12, 2024 00:12
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Regalingualius posted:And Artanis has the personality of cardboard. I stick by my claim that he's the Rodimus Prime of Starcraft.
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Feb 12, 2024 00:35
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Szarrukin posted:Agreed. Main character is usually the most bland one, especially in video games. Also Kerrigan is arguably the most interesting of SC2 main characters, but mostly because Raynor is boring and Artanis... who the hell is Artanis? we're all just trying not to trip over this bar but the writers just don't watch their step
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Feb 12, 2024 00:42
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It turns out the one thing I consistently remember about this campaign is Abathur withdrawing with both hands up every time Kerrigan gets mad. It also kinda looks like he just received a surprise birthday gift and he's sincerely happy about it.
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Feb 12, 2024 04:35
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You know, in this whole Zerus shitshow I thought of a possible pathway to possibly fix this Primal nonsense with minimal changes (actual good writers required to turn this base idea into something workable): Primals are not the original Zerg form before xel'naga intervention. Primals are the (or some of) discarded failures of Amon's essence engineering project. Amon threw them away and stopped thinking about them, thinking them garbage, but through anger and spite and perseverance and spite and "gently caress Amon" and spite they managed to claw their place and thrive as top dinosaurs here on Zerus. Thematically: 1) Primals being kinda losers in absolute terms stops being a problem, because everybody can appreciate an underdog going "gently caress power levels and gently caress you" to the universe 2) they'd be broken basically the same way Kerrigan is, allowing her to empathize with them (even as she kills them by the score) and maybe to some self reflection (lol lmao modern  )2bis) and Kerrigan would make her own and actually deliver the Primal's middle finger to Amon 3) making clear what Kerrigan and the Swarm are gaining from incorporating the Primals: spite towards Amon, stronger resiliency if the Swarm's head intelligence gets cut off (even at the cost of potential infighting) and overall a declaration of independence from Amon Still a bit of a retcon, and an actually good writer (not me) would be required to hammer the details so it actually works. Grammarchist posted:It turns out the one thing I consistently remember about this campaign is Abathur withdrawing with both hands up every time Kerrigan gets mad. It also kinda looks like he just received a surprise birthday gift and he's sincerely happy about it. New essence strain. For me. You shouldn't have.
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Feb 12, 2024 09:02
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Kerrigan sings "ABATHUR-THDAY TO YOU" every single time, and Abathur has to pretend it's clever
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Feb 12, 2024 13:14
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Confectionery. Baked. Strawberry. Cream whipped sloppy, but sufficient. Will incorporate into body mass.
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Feb 12, 2024 13:30
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you do not want to know how they pin the tail on the donkelisk
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Feb 12, 2024 13:34
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aniviron posted:Genuinely more invested in wanting to know what this thing is than whatever is going on with the plot. Edit: Oh, it was Dehaka. That guy sucks. wologar fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Feb 12, 2024 |
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Feb 12, 2024 16:16
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Grammarchist posted:It turns out the one thing I consistently remember about this campaign is Abathur withdrawing with both hands up every time Kerrigan gets mad. It also kinda looks like he just received a surprise birthday gift and he's sincerely happy about it. It reminds him of his youth. 
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Feb 12, 2024 16:38
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wologar posted:It reminds him of his youth. For anyone wondering how Abathur could even work in a Dota-like: he sits in base (mostly, good Aba players know when and how to go on the frontline effectively) and Zerg enhances one of his allies via a remote controlled thing colloquially called the "hat". Said hat can also shield the hatted ally and shoot poo poo at nearby enemies. His ultimates are to spawn a big Abomination like the ones on the mission chain we have ignored for now, or cloning an allied hero. He also passively spawns broodlings and can create creep mines anywhere (mostly anywhere) on the map. He owns.
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Feb 12, 2024 17:02
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There was nothing more satisfying than throwing a hapless opponent into the roiling mass of mines your Abathur had hidden in the tall grass. This is also a good time to mention that HotS applies ragdoll physics to defeated heroes. There have been multiple times where I've seen someone (myself included) get launched clear across the map by a well-placed mine stack
Bloody Pom fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Feb 12, 2024 |
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Feb 12, 2024 21:02
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can confirm that abathur is an absolute motherfucker in HOTS amusingly enough a lot of what he does in HOTS was ported into co-op as well
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Feb 12, 2024 21:10
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Kith posted:can confirm that abathur is an absolute motherfucker in HOTS
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Feb 12, 2024 21:24
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Gun Jam posted:How many work in blizzard, and how come none of them said "maybe we shouldn't have two games with the same, uncommon acronym"? They seemed to be pretty self-aware about it: https://news.blizzard.com/en-gb/starcraft2/13611763/hitting-on-the-selection-of-a-name GunnerJ fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Feb 12, 2024 |
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Feb 12, 2024 21:26
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they did, it led to a joke about how they were renaming Legacy of the Void into something HOTS-acronym'd. e: f;b
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Feb 12, 2024 21:27
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