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This:HazCat posted:If Jews do not want to be associated with Israel and Israel's actions they do actually need to denounce Israel. shows that you are in fact "walking around assuming every Jew supports Israel" until they prove otherwise, which is *incredibly* antisemitic, like, vintage dual loyalties antisemitism the continued inability of people nominally on the left to oppose the ongoing horror in Gaza without resorting to antisemitism is not exactly giving me hope for the future Breakfast Burrito fucked around with this message at 12:54 on Feb 12, 2024 |
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Feb 12, 2024 12:46
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anti-zionism is not the same as anti-semitism. anti-semites are using the current situation to spread their hatred under the guise of anti-zionism. zionists are using the fear of anti-semitism to avoid criticism and stir the population into terror and reactivity. the threat of anti-semitic violence is very real. the atrocities perpetrated by the state of israel are also very real. everything is a loving mess and everybody is terrified and nobody knows what to do. i deleted the rest of the rant because spewing my raw panic everywhere is not helping anybody. an egg fucked around with this message at 13:10 on Feb 12, 2024 |
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Feb 12, 2024 12:48
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Breakfast Burrito posted:This: No, when someone says something that supports Israel like "this woman who criticised Israel is an anti-semite, better replace them (with someone sympathetic to Israel)" I assume they support Israel. This is the Internet, I don't know who is or is not Jewish, but I sure as poo poo can see when someone is doing something that shows they support Israel.
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Feb 12, 2024 12:53
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I don't know a single pro-Palestinian person who does not know the extremely obvious difference between a Jewish person and a Zionist. I have not seen a single pro-Palestinian in any of the spaces I am in who does not deeply respect any Jew who denounces Israel. The people conflating Jews and Zionists are Zionists. Anti-Zionism is not anti-semitism.
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Feb 12, 2024 12:56
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Breakfast Burrito posted:This: Yeah, this is correct. Jews must not be assumed to be Zionists and do not need to disavow Zionism to not be associated with Zionists much like how any Muslim does not need to disavow ISIS. The only people who want this are the people who want to isolate and terrify those communities, out of either prejudice or because communities that feel under threat are recruiting grounds for extremists.
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Feb 12, 2024 12:58
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HazCat posted:All Jewish people should be doing it HazCat posted:If Jews do not want to be associated with Israel and Israel's actions they do actually need to denounce Israel. This is the bit where you are wrong, and you do need to cut it out because it is in fact antisemitic, regardless of your intentions, or your feelings about Jewish people broadly. Being Jewish does not mean you have to 'opt in' to being given the benefit of the doubt, or 'opt out' of an association with the state of Israel that you personally never asked for. Being Jewish does not, in fact, obligate you to have any particular opinion about anything, or to vocalise any such opinion should you form one, or not vocalise it, or anything. Please. Consider that the posters telling you this may have a point, and take some time to think about it before you post again. If you really hate antisemitism so much, you wouldn't want to accidentally be actually doing it, would you? Don't be that person who just doubles down. Come on. Take a minute. Take a few days.
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Feb 12, 2024 13:03
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If Jews do not want to be associated with Zionism they need to denounce Zionism because Zionism is intentionally actively associating Judaism with Zionism and if Jews do not fight then Zionists will successfully make that association. I am not saying 'if Jews don't denounce Zionism they deserve to face anti-semitism', I am saying that if Jews do not denounce Zionism they will face anti-semitism, because Zionism intentionally stokes anti-semitism against Jews. I am not making a moral argument in defense of anti-semitism against anyone. I cannot possibly be clearer that I am not an anti-semite, that I do not hold anti-semetic beliefs, that all I want is for Jews to not be associated with Zionism against their will, which is what was happening in this thread. And just for further clarity, I believe everybody has a moral obligation to condemn Israel even if it is not in their personal best interest, because Israel is committing genocide. When someone says 'the Jews control the media', the correct response is not 'you can't say that, that's anti-semitic'. It's 'no they don't, you're talking about the Zionists'. When someone says 'the Jews are interfering with international poltiics'the correct response is not 'you can't say that, that's anti-semitic'. It's 'no they don't, you're talking about the Zionists'. When someone says 'Jews poisoned wells', the correct response is not 'you can't say that, that's anti-semitic'. It's 'no they didn't, you're talking about the Zionists'. And if they say 'well, but that's the same thing really, isn't it?' the correct response is 'no, Zionism is not Judaism, the Jews are not to blame for the actions Zionists take, no matter how much Zionists claim they represent all Jews'. Anti-Zionism is not anti-semitism.
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Feb 12, 2024 14:34
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HazCat posted:If Jews do not want to be associated with Zionism they need to denounce Zionism because Zionism is intentionally actively associating Judaism with Zionism and if Jews do not fight then Zionists will successfully make that association. Sounds like all you're doing is defending anti-semitism by advocating for search and replace jew with the word zionist. as if phrases like "zionist occupied government" isn't neo-nazi through and through don't say muslim say Islamofacist/Islamist type poo poo fez_machine fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Feb 12, 2024 |
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Feb 12, 2024 15:00
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Bucky, I swear to all the gods of humanity if you post about bike paths in this thread one more loving time, I am going to find the public official responsible for receiving your proposal and I will induce them to ignore any proposals you make by any means necessary. That includes (but is not limited to) cash bribes, steak dinners, and sexual favours. Shut the gently caress up about bike paths.
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Feb 12, 2024 15:02
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I am begging you to step back and think about this.HazCat posted:Anti-Zionism is not anti-semitism. Nobody here is disagreeing with this. Nobody here thinks Anti-Zionism is anti-semitism. Nobody here thinks you are anti-semitic because you are anti-zionist. HazCat posted:If Jews do not want to be associated with Zionism they need to denounce Zionism because Zionism is intentionally actively associating Judaism with Zionism and if Jews do not fight then Zionists will successfully make that association. This is antisemitism because it places the responsibility for the persecution they suffer on the Jewish people themselves and inherently associates them with a disgusting ideology. No matter what any individual Jewish person decides to do, they will face persecution. A Jewish person does not have a requirement to disavow Zionism to not be associated with it. To believe otherwise is deeply antisemitic. Please, I am going to do a word replace with Muslim and Islamist with the above, and see if you recognise this rhetoric from every utter shitstain in the Liberal Party over the last 15 years. You posted:If Muslims do not want to be associated with Islamism they need to denounce Islamism because Islamism is intentionally actively associating Muslims with Islamism and if Muslims do not fight then Islamists will successfully make that association. hooman fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Feb 12, 2024 |
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Feb 12, 2024 15:44
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HazCat posted:If Jews do not want to be associated with Zionism they need to denounce Zionism because Zionism is intentionally actively associating Judaism with Zionism and if Jews do not fight then Zionists will successfully make that association. OK, I understand that there is a difference between 'ought/deserve to' and 'will', and I agree that this difference is philosophically important. However, two things: 1.) Do you understand that there is a difference between 'should' (as in "Jewish people should denounce Zionism") and 'must'? Your posts reek of 'must'. That's not good, for reasons that have been explained. Or to come at it a different way, do you think that in this case, there is a practical difference (vs. a philosophical one) between 'deserve to face antisemitism' and 'will face antisemitism'? Either way, either reason, it seems to me that the responsibility for the antisemitism they're facing is being placed on the Jews. HazCat posted:I am not making a moral argument in defense of anti-semitism against anyone. No-one thinks you're saying it's OK to be antisemitic. What people here are saying to you is that believing that Jewish people are in any way or form responsible for their own persecution if they fail to proactively disavow Zionism — and how often, and where, and to whom should they do this, by the way? — is in itself an antisemitic attitude. It is not the same attitude as "I hate the Jews, they're vermin, they should die": it is antisemitic to a lesser degree, but it is antisemitic nonetheless. 2.) Returning to this specific part... HazCat posted:I am saying that if Jews do not denounce Zionism they will face anti-semitism, Do you believe, then, that if they do denounce Zionism, they won't face antisemitism? Because I don't believe that. Just based on precedent. I believe what hooman said here: hooman posted:No matter what any individual Jewish person decides to do, they will face persecution. Antisemitism has been around since long before Zionism, long before the state of Israel. We are not currently witnessing some new, historically distinct form of antisemitism that emerged fully formed due to Israel making genocidal war on Palestine. It's largely the same old poo poo and Zionism is the new excuse for it. You seem to imagine that you and scarce few others understand that Judaism and Zionism are not the same thing, and that if we successfully de-conflate the two for all the dumb-dumbs — inoculate them against the idea — this new strain of antisemitism will be successfully eradicated. I hope you know that this cannot possibly be true, and given that, how especially egregious it is to insist that Jewish people above all others should, or must, engage in this — how to put it? — this moralistic make-work; that they must reason with the unreasonable. But if not, and you want to keep at it, let me ask again: If, as you say... HazCat posted:If Jews do not want to be associated with Zionism they need to denounce Zionism because Zionism is intentionally actively associating Judaism with Zionism and if Jews do not fight then Zionists will successfully make that association. If, as you say, and for the reasons you say, Jews need to denounce Zionism: How often should they denounce it? Where should they denounce it? To whom should they denounce it? And with what words should they denounce it? How often, where, to whom, and with what words, to have the desired effect? And at what point will each individual Jew have met their obligation?
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Feb 12, 2024 17:32
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HazCat posted:If they support Israel, they support Israel's actions, which do in fact include controlling the media. People of Jewish faith don't need to actively disavow what the Israeli government or its supporters does just like a Muslim don't need to actively disavow fellow Muslims each time a Muslim does something wrong same as each time a man commits a crime against women, you don't expect every guy in the work place to go to every lady in the workplace and disavow that day's crimes. Expecting people to be constantly and actively sorry about things they didn't do or are within their locus of control is poo poo. What you meant to say is people need to avoid actively supporting particular acts by Israel and need to be cautious about supporting Israel in general (which as we all know was formed as a State in large part for somewhere for Jews to flee systematic crimes (including genocide) against them). What Israel is doing in Gaza is heinous. There are plenty of Israeli government apologizers that will use any pedantic argument to muddy the waters and obfuscate the simple fact that Israel is currently committing genocide. Giving the supporters of Israel's action in Gaza an out by using language so imprecisely just wrecks the credibility of your argument (and in their eyes, the argument that Israel is doing anything wrong or is unjustifiable). TL DR, your post is the equivalent of Aussies being confused that Harry Connick Jr didn't rate Hey Hey's blackface skit more than a zero.
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Feb 12, 2024 18:09
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HazCat posted:If Jews do not want to be associated with Zionism they need to denounce Zionism because Zionism is intentionally actively associating Judaism with Zionism and if Jews do not fight then Zionists will successfully make that association. Lol amazing we are literally back to the same rhetoric as we had in 2001 except just switched the religion from Islam to Judaism. Imagine coming out with talking points over 20 years old.
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Feb 12, 2024 20:21
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https://amp.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/new-data-reveals-just-how-many-airbnb-rentals-victoria-has-20240208-p5f3gd.html AirBnB is not a problem for housing affordability says report (commissioned by AirBnB) How do you write a whole article on that without mentioning that the industry it benefits commissioned the loving thing lol
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Feb 12, 2024 20:52
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HazCat posted:If Jews do not want to be associated with Zionism they need to denounce Zionism because Zionism is intentionally actively associating Judaism with Zionism and if Jews do not fight then Zionists will successfully make that association. TBH not flying an Israeli flag is probably as far as it needs to go. Condemning genocide and the states who commit it is something everyone should be doing so I don’t think singling out Jewish people calling on them in particular to denounce it is fair or useful.
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Feb 12, 2024 21:14
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I assume hazcat is a sovcit nazi anime fan because they don’t have a prominent tattoo stating otherwise.
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Feb 12, 2024 21:18
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Chicken Parmigiana posted:
(But your overall point is correct)
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Feb 12, 2024 21:20
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HazCat posted:If Jews do not want to be associated with Zionism they need to denounce Zionism again, this is just the dual loyalties antisemitic trope that is literally thousands of years old doing a ctrl+f of Jews with Zionists isn't "one weird trick to get out of antisemitism free" it's again also an incredibly old antisemitic trope the reason people are accusing you of saying antisemitic things is not because they're smearing you to defend Israel, its because you keep saying antisemitic things
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Feb 12, 2024 22:20
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Publishing lists of Jews and saying that they need to declare their loyalties in a foreign ethnic conflict to avoid suspicion is not cool imo
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Feb 12, 2024 22:37
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Solemn Sloth posted:How do you write a whole article on that without mentioning that the industry it benefits commissioned the loving thing lol sleeping comfortably on a bed of money
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Feb 12, 2024 22:44
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Last years big L for progressive politics was the prog no vote in the referendum, this years big L is getting sucked into the antisemitism spiral because once again a lot of nominally progressive people can’t identify when they are being antisemitic
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Feb 12, 2024 22:48
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HazCat posted:
As a Jewish person I feel like this is insane anti semitism please never post again.
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Feb 12, 2024 22:58
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HazCat posted:I don't know a single pro-Palestinian person who does not know the extremely obvious difference between a Jewish person and a Zionist. I have not seen a single pro-Palestinian in any of the spaces I am in who does not deeply respect any Jew who denounces Israel. The people conflating Jews and Zionists are Zionists. yet here you are demanding Jews perform actively a purity test other wise they should be considered evil and unclean - something that is actively anti Semitic you disgusting freak
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Feb 12, 2024 23:07
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No no no, you don't get it, I'm not saying all Jews control the media, I'm saying these Jews control the media. It's different.
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Feb 12, 2024 23:08
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Why even resort to blaming cabals of Jews controlling the media when Israeli soft power is right there?
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Feb 12, 2024 23:52
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Lube Enthusiast posted:He’s ignored a dozen posters telling him to stop, and the multiple probes from mods itt telling him to shut up.
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Feb 12, 2024 23:54
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Cartoon posted:He's making the request for him to stop direct to the Premier! Duh. The Premier will wave his hand and it will happen!
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Feb 13, 2024 00:51
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So, uh, what's the story about Bucky and the indigenous flag? He decided to unilaterally redesign it or something?
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Feb 13, 2024 00:51
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In think people were throwing around alt Australian flag details and he copied the indigenous flag and made it pastel. I think he staunchly defended the concept, as is his style.
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Feb 13, 2024 01:07
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this thread needs some more comedy so here's your reminder that sally rugg, in a federal court affidavit, swore that she had to advise monique ryan not to compare her kooyong election campaign to the experience of colonialism by indigenous australians in her maiden speech to parliament it is a national tragedy that we'll probably never get to see Maiden Speech [Monique's Version]
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Feb 13, 2024 01:26
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what the hell is happening in taspol?
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Feb 13, 2024 03:18
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Outcomes for indigenous people going backwards almost across the board according to closing the gap update.
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Feb 13, 2024 03:48
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Solemn Sloth posted:this thread needs some more comedy so here's your reminder that sally rugg, in a federal court affidavit, swore that she had to advise monique ryan not to compare her kooyong election campaign to the experience of colonialism by indigenous australians in her maiden speech to parliament Why did she have to commit this to an affadavit?
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Feb 13, 2024 03:55
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Amethyst posted:Why did she have to commit this to an affadavit? This was part of her unfair dismissal proceedings and she was detailing the type of work she did for Ryan including examples, this was just by far the funniest part of it
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Feb 13, 2024 03:56
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birdstrike posted:what the hell is happening in taspol? Victoria has long conducted benevolent management of Tasmanian affairs through the state football corporation. Denying entry into the league, while a heavy burden on the Victorian soul, provided a common foe to bind Tasmanian society against. Without Victorians continuing to martyr their own reputation to the cause of Tasmanian solidarity a fall into chaos and warlordism was inevitable.
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Feb 13, 2024 04:02
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Solemn Sloth posted:This was part of her unfair dismissal proceedings and she was detailing the type of work she did for Ryan including examples, this was just by far the funniest part of it Lol I remember this it was a great saga
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Feb 13, 2024 04:05
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Solemn Sloth posted:this thread needs some more comedy so here's your reminder that sally rugg, in a federal court affidavit, swore that she had to advise monique ryan not to compare her kooyong election campaign to the experience of colonialism by indigenous australians in her maiden speech to parliament Sally Rugg seems like a massive narcissist, and saying “I had to remind her not to say that” is a narcissist’s way of saying “I didn’t like that part of my paediatric neurology professor boss’s speech”. https://findanexpert.unimelb.edu.au/profile/175659-monique-ryan
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Feb 13, 2024 04:13
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EoinCannon posted:In think people were throwing around alt Australian flag details and he copied the indigenous flag and made it pastel. I think he staunchly defended the concept, as is his style. something something the current one isnt public domain so lets make a new one, i am a white person so clearly i should be designing it
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Feb 13, 2024 04:32
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The Artificial Kid posted:Sally Rugg seems like a massive narcissist, and saying “I had to remind her not to say that” is a narcissist’s way of saying “I didn’t like that part of my paediatric neurology professor boss’s speech”. Not liking the part of your bosses speech that compares running for parliament as a wealthy white person to the indigenous experience of colonialism is a good thing, hth
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Feb 13, 2024 05:17
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Solemn Sloth posted:Not liking the part of your bosses speech that compares running for parliament as a wealthy white person to the indigenous experience of colonialism is a good thing, hth What was the text that got removed?
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Feb 13, 2024 05:22
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