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Arquinsiel posted:I had that too. "You get that when you sign the contract". Uh... no, thanks. yeah i thanked one recently thay put the benefits info up front on the first interview. later declined when their range was capped at 30% market. but getting the benefits up front was nice (tho they werent anything special)
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Feb 15, 2024 20:13
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:salary isn't disclosed in the interview either, so why should the other part of compensation be disclosed? PTO in particular is a pretty big deal. The sooner I know the company is super stingy with PTO, the sooner I can  and save us both a lot of time.
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Feb 15, 2024 20:20
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Yeah I ask for salary, remote work policy, PTO and 401k as early as possible because sometimes that information makes a ginormous difference.
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Feb 15, 2024 20:30
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In my limited and anecdotal experience, companies are often transparent about their benefits package during the recruiting/hiring cycle. A lot of the time the summary is in the job ad or recruiter contact message. Most of the time for most roles it is pretty set in stone and not negotiable so it's not like it's up in the air the way salary is. Last time I was interviewing I was given the whole benefits info packet that employees get before I got an offer because I asked. If a company is cagey about their benefits I will 100% assume they that suck because there's no reason to hide them, and lovely benefits will probably be a deal breaker so the sooner I know the sooner we stop wasting everyone's time. To a limited extent subpar benefits can be made up for with more money, and I want to know that sooner rather than later, but some things are just non-starters like awful time off policies or total dogshit 401k plans. Guinness fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Feb 15, 2024 |
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Feb 15, 2024 20:41
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:salary isn't disclosed in the interview either, so why should the other part of compensation be disclosed? Yeah as previously stated by others salary is negotiable, benefits are pre set. There’s no reason to be cagey about it unless they suck. In fact, if it’s at all a reasonable package they are usually proactively advertised
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Feb 15, 2024 21:20
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Also, get their relocation policies if you'd be relocating, including the requirements / terms of repayment for it (if any).
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Feb 15, 2024 21:53
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hobbez posted:Yeah as previously stated by others salary is negotiable, benefits are pre set. I understand what you're saying but some benefits are in fact negotiable, notably PTO. I'll tell people if asked in an interview but it's caveated with "this is not actual benefits documentation, this is what is currently in place today to my knowledge offhand"
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Feb 15, 2024 22:23
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leper khan posted:i had one that refused to disclose benefits with the rest of the offer once Is this poop from a butt, ParallelWoody?
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Feb 16, 2024 03:37
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Comparing whoever was involved in the decision making and execution of the practice that "We don't disclose benefits with an offer" with poop from a butt is insulting to fecal matter. I could at least find *some* use for poop. For real though, one of my clients has a great benefits package, pays well, and seems to genuinely want to do right by their employees while also being a non-profit. One of the few enjoyable parts of working in the corporate equivalent of a clogged toilet is being able to talk to employees about all the cool stuff they can get from their employer and how to maximize every penny of it. Parallelwoody fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Feb 16, 2024 |
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Feb 16, 2024 04:35
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Parallelwoody posted:Comparing whoever was involved in the decision making and execution of the practice that "We don't disclose benefits with an offer" with poop from a butt is insulting to fecal matter. I could at least find *some* use for poop. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil#Uses_in_agriculture
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Feb 16, 2024 04:40
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I understand what you're saying but some benefits are in fact negotiable, notably PTO. This has been my experience. If a place holds to n"ew employee only gets 15 days" when you have 20 years experience that sucks. But you can get around it for sure at a good place. The 401k match will never change though. Can be a big deal breaker.
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Feb 16, 2024 04:50
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spwrozek posted:The 401k match will never change though. Can be a big deal breaker. Yeah this requires a plan amendment, you can't really negotiate this on an individual basis due to various rules for discrimination testing. I mean, it's maybe theoretically possible if the company is very literally willing to say "we do not give a single gently caress how much it costs and are willing to give more money to everyone in the company to accommodate you." While I've read enough horror stories about "anonymous" surveys, this is sometimes the point of them - what benefits are the employees not happy with and where can we effectively spend our money to improve them? If everyone is like "1% match sucks my dudes" then there's at least ammo to make that argument to finance.
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Feb 16, 2024 06:04
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I’ve been surprised at how often the 401k match gets reduced or basically axed altogether. Maybe that’s industry-specific (not mine, fortunately), but what a “gently caress you” to your employees.
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Feb 16, 2024 06:47
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Parallelwoody posted:Yeah this requires a plan amendment, you can't really negotiate this on an individual basis due to various rules for discrimination testing. I mean, it's maybe theoretically possible if the company is very literally willing to say "we do not give a single gently caress how much it costs and are willing to give more money to everyone in the company to accommodate you." Totally with you on this one. I have been talking to a company that interests me but I know the 401k match is not great (although I have seen worse). If they pay enough it can work out if the plan is good. We will see.
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Feb 16, 2024 07:08
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401k match is at least relatively easy to convert to a salary difference. your lovely 401k match just means i expect a larger base, accounting for taxes etc.
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Feb 16, 2024 09:26
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While I fully admit I don't have data to support this, I would still venture a guess that if a company has a poo poo 401k it's not going to make up for it in pay. Higher salaries mean they can use that tax advantaged space more so it's the most beneficial to those at the top plus the business gets a tax credit for contributions in several situations. If they are skimping on that, it doesn't exactly bode well for the rest of the total comp.
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Feb 16, 2024 09:45
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leper khan posted:401k match is at least relatively easy to convert to a salary difference. your lovely 401k match just means i expect a larger base, accounting for taxes etc. yeah I completely disagree with this. Tax advantaged space is not replaceable, you literally can't contribute more to it than the cap each year. Unless you mean "accounting for the entirety of taxes on this salary base for the next thirty years", I suppose, but that's a bit harder to know.
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Feb 16, 2024 14:38
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You can contribute to a Roth instead and just factor in the tax differences if you're hitting the max. Not particularly hard to do. A lovely 401k match sucks but even a few % increase in salary and some self control means you can figure out ways to make it up and come out whole. If you make enough this shouldn't be a major problem. The problem is: 1. It's a sign of a penny pinching lovely company, though not always. 2. It's mostly hurting people early in their careers who don't know how that stuff works but at least know "Max the match on 401k". Also lower & middle income folks who will find it more difficult to make short term cuts for longer term gain (though they may see a higher salary as more beneficial). Like everything, a higher salary papers over a lot of problems and benefits need to always, always be weighed on their whole.
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Feb 16, 2024 15:05
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My company is adding a lovely term to the contract now that the bullshit work for hire term is ending and I'm pretty mad about it. They've made it clear that it is gonna be sign or be let go. Trying to negotiate a signing bonus or something of that nature out of this. I figure I'll bring up that if they lose me over this, they'll incur a lot of cost (trying) to replace me and I could just apply for the same position and get a signing bonus that way.
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Feb 19, 2024 19:17
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What's the lovely part they're adding?
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Feb 19, 2024 21:46
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Quackles posted:What's the lovely part they're adding? A non compete (oh well) and a clause that allows them to count my money above union minimum against overtime and other normally paid expenses.
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Feb 19, 2024 22:01
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Feb 19, 2024 22:03
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SEKCobra posted:A non compete (oh well) and a clause that allows them to count my money above union minimum against overtime and other normally paid expenses. Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
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Feb 19, 2024 22:17
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Now would be a good time to get familiar with the constructive dismissal laws in your jurisdiction, by the way.
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Feb 19, 2024 22:21
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SEKCobra posted:count my money above union minimum against overtime and other normally paid expenses.
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Feb 19, 2024 22:39
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Eric the Mauve posted:Now would be a good time to get familiar with the constructive dismissal laws in your jurisdiction, by the way.
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Feb 20, 2024 00:31
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Arquinsiel posted:What does this actually mean in practice? It sounds suspicious. In practice? Nothing right now, there have been verbal promises made to me, the work council and everyone around that this is just to prevent a PR disaster when they forget to pay someone on time for some expenses. But technically/legally/on paper it means that if the union minimum is 5000€ and I make 5500€, until overtime/travel expenses/on call and whatever else I'm entitled to are more than 500€ they don't have to pay it. In reality it's probably even worse, because there is an annual bonus which they also put into the clause, so realistically I'd have about 25k per year that could be used to calculate against. Everyone is saying quit when/if they actually enforce it. To me it seems like they are preparing the corp for actually using that in a few years, they've only fairly recently added that to the corporate contracts. I tried negotiating it out, but they are quite insistent on that being impossible as it's a standard contract blabla. Lots of bullshit arguments all around. I figured I'll leverage the situation to get something out of signing this very much worse contract (and keep having a job for now) and keep looking for a good new opportunity in the meantime. It's not likely for them to enforce these clauses within the short term unless there is suddenly significant economic downturn. E: Downside to signing is that I'll have to give 3 months notice
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Feb 20, 2024 06:19
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How healthy are you, financially? Might be worth not signing the contract and job hunting full time. I suspect you're Austrian so I don't know anything about your labour laws, but "we don't have to pay you what you're due" is sus as gently caress.
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Feb 20, 2024 07:17
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How many interviews should you endure before cutting them off Apparently this hiring manager really likes my wife, I think this whole brouhaha started in like, October, she interviewed with two different teams about two weeks apart this winter, then there was a pause until February when she met with hiring managers' boss. That went well. Now they want to meet her in person but they're out of town until XYZ In theory this battery of interviews will wrap up in late March but kind of reeks of terrible management and inability to make a decision and seems like a huge loving red flag and probably turn down the offer?
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Feb 20, 2024 10:54
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How is 3 months notice even gonna work? Over here, the norm is 1 month, and the expectation is basically that the person will be finishing existing stuff and handing over stuff, but generally just be mentally checked out and quiet quitting for the last month.
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Feb 20, 2024 12:18
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I interviewed with a company that wants me to do a "case study" for them. Whats the politest way to decline based on that being beneath me, and also how rude/fun will it be to send them a "here is my consulting rate" counter which is what Im fantasizing about but wont do. Daydream with me.
Barudak fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Feb 20, 2024 |
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Feb 20, 2024 12:56
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SEKCobra posted:In practice? Nothing right now, there have been verbal promises made to me, the work council and everyone around that this is just to prevent a PR disaster when they forget to pay someone on time for some expenses. Talk to a lawyer before signing anything. At least in Germany companies like to add illegal clauses to labor contracts, might be similar where you are.
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Feb 20, 2024 13:08
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BonHair posted:How is 3 months notice even gonna work? Over here, the norm is 1 month, and the expectation is basically that the person will be finishing existing stuff and handing over stuff, but generally just be mentally checked out and quiet quitting for the last month. We have progressive notice periods here, it's normally 6 weeks for the first two years, then two months, 3 months after 5 years, 4 after 15 years and finally 5 after 25 years. This is the notice period for the employer, but it's common to make it the same for the employee. In IT it's best practice to send the employee home and/or have them use up vacation days etc. But for key roles they sometimes do have people come in and write documentation and/or hand over their role.
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Feb 20, 2024 13:12
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Wheel! Of! 4chan! posted:Talk to a lawyer before signing anything. At least in Germany companies like to add illegal clauses to labor contracts, might be similar where you are. I did, but it is legal because I'm basically agreeing that the money over minimum wage is already credited towards any other dues. It's why their arguments are all very disingenious, because they keep saying they'd never interpret it like that, but it's literally exactly what they wrote in there. The only reason I didn't bail straight away is the fact that this is confirmed corporate bullshit and there is 0 indication that the current management intends to use the language at all. Still I see it as a red flag that the eventuality is being made possible and they are opening this backdoor for themselves. Corporate HR is just giving "gently caress off" statements to our CEO and our HR is just going "corporate HR is god you are sol". Our current HR manager is a total piece of poo poo and I don't understand how he got hired in the current restructuring, because he doesn't fit the values they are proporting at all. He's giving facepalming statements every time he speaks. He literally told me the HR management company we use (another corp subsidiary) cant handle an individual contract so that's another reason i cant get the contract without those terms. Didn't respond when I challenged him on it and told him that everyone until a year ago got the exact same contract without those terms and I'm pretty sure they know how to handle the majority of employees we have.
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Feb 20, 2024 13:20
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Barudak posted:I interviewed with a company that wants me to do a "case study" for them. Whats the politest way to decline based on that being beneath me, and also how rude/fun will it be to send them a "here is my consulting rate" counter which is what Im fantasizing about but wont do. Daydream with me. I would just draft a proposal based on what you know for them to sign and submit as you would any to Request for Proposal.
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Feb 20, 2024 13:34
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Hadlock posted:How many interviews should you endure before cutting them off She's interviewing for a fairly senior position, right? The more senior the role the more senior people have to sign off, and that takes time. It sounds like it's all a matter of scheduling and face time, so I wouldn't worry about it. It doesn't seem to be related to an inability to make a decision - she just has to meet all the right people and check the boxes and that takes time. We brought on a director level person and it took like six months from the time he started talking to our HR people. Is that good? No, but for senior hires getting the right person that everyone backs is a lot more important than getting a body in the chair ASAP.
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Feb 20, 2024 15:49
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SEKCobra posted:In practice? Nothing right now, there have been verbal promises made to me, the work council and everyone around that this is just to prevent a PR disaster when they forget to pay someone on time for some expenses. jfc dude. They are trying to enslave you. Burn your savings if you have to and implement this immediately: Dance Officer posted:How healthy are you, financially? Might be worth not signing the contract and job hunting full time. Get the hell out.
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Feb 20, 2024 15:50
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Barudak posted:I interviewed with a company that wants me to do a "case study" for them. Whats the politest way to decline based on that being beneath me, and also how rude/fun will it be to send them a "here is my consulting rate" counter which is what Im fantasizing about but wont do. Daydream with me. This is exactly and unironically what I would do. lol no, I am not doing a significant amount of free work for you as a precondition for being considered for maybe being paid to do future work for you.
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Feb 20, 2024 15:51
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SEKCobra posted:But technically/legally/on paper it means that if the union minimum is 5000€ and I make 5500€, until overtime/travel expenses/on call and whatever else I'm entitled to are more than 500€ they don't have to pay it. Sounds like that's a paycut. Refer back to constructive dismissal conversations above, and repeatedly state "I prefer to retain my established working conditions" until HR go away. BonHair posted:How is 3 months notice even gonna work? Over here, the norm is 1 month, and the expectation is basically that the person will be finishing existing stuff and handing over stuff, but generally just be mentally checked out and quiet quitting for the last month. 
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Feb 20, 2024 19:51
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Arquinsiel posted:So what they're saying here is actually they're not going to pay you for work you've done, because they've already paid you for different work you've done, but since the rate is higher than someone else's rate they are going to pretend you are on that lower rate? Basically they are converting my contract to a quasi all in model. They'll be telling me to sign or be fired on thursday (my colleague already had the talk). I just wanna make it worth my while until i find something comparable, I have nothing to gain from quitting now vs in half a year (other than fearing an economic downturn).
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Feb 20, 2024 20:08
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