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maswastaken posted:Gog is suggesting that Allison can win and go back to a happy life and is actually waiting to learn the answer. Everything is playing out so differently this time, she's curious, she may even be excited to witness this outcome. Hell, if the demiurges aren't the same boring bastards they've been the other billion times, she might even take enough of an interest to help. Allison can only hope Gog gets over herself, as Mottom almost actually did. Ehh, I don't know. Gog-Agog is just intentionally loving with her, not saying she can actually win. She knows Allison can never go back home to Earth, and she SPECIFICALLY brought up the plants to reopen the scar of Cio's death. She doesn't actually think this cycle will end well, she's just happy that things are a little more interesting momentarily. Her only goal is to twist the knife and insert a little more chaos to make it more amusing. Is it possible Allison can convince her to help? Maybe, I guess. But it sounds like she's tried that many, many times before and been stopped enough times that she sees no point to it. It's gonna take a lot to convince her, and even then you can't depend on her to not just dip out whenever. Obviously it's kind of hard to predict what Gog-Agog is actually going to do, so I am super curious how this is going to play out. I don't want to set expectations too high, but I'm betting there will be some crazy poo poo none of us saw coming.
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Feb 17, 2024 20:13
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girl dick energy posted:End of Act 5 ([S] Cascade, I think?) is still the best point to stop reading. It's a nice little "and the adventure continues" finale, like a show that didn't know if it was going to get renewed or not. I forget which act I stopped on, but it was somewhere after the first act but years before the end, or even the longest hiatuses I heard people talking about. (It felt like each act was three times longer than the previous, so it's hard to use them as a measure of anything.) I made a fan game based on the first act, though. And went to an awkward meetup with other fans at Powell's Books in Portland. I was really into it at first. My falling off of the comic wasn't sudden, there just was a lot of time for it to happen over. ...Problem Sleuth is an easier recommendation to make. Same wild "scope creep" energy, but it managed to touch down for a landing within a year, and it has less "you had to be there" (though still some). Ditocoaf fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Feb 17, 2024 |
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Feb 17, 2024 20:14
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The fact that Gog-Agog remembers anything from past cycles implies that those cycles are part of the chain of causality, and therefore Jadis has perfect knowledge of them. Zoss, too, is not extracausal.
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Feb 18, 2024 00:07
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Feb 18, 2024 00:36
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Is it just me or does Allison go through cycles of believing in the power of violence, losing, renouncing violence, and then getting a little stronger and believing in violence again?
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Feb 18, 2024 00:42
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Jadis is miserable because she's out of time. It is no longer possible for her to change her own perspective on events because there's no new information for her to add to her knowledge, nor is it possible for her to say "maybe I'll feel differently tomorrow." Gog-Agog is miserable because she has nothing but time; an endless looping flow of time in which to continue being a billion-year-old clown. She would probably be happier if she stopped being a billion-year-old clown, but she doesn't know how to do so and she's honestly more attached to the bit than she cares to admit to herself.
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Feb 18, 2024 00:55
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She's also probably tried enough things that she figures deleting all her memories next cycle would just lead to her getting back to this point in another billion years. And without Allison throwing a wrench in the gears, she might be right. but hey, whether it's this cycle or the next we'd get to see a brawl between Jagganoth and God-Agog, and that'd be neat now that we have reason to believe she was still pulling her punches when she incapacitated him as World of Gog
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Feb 18, 2024 01:07
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Rand Brittain posted:She would probably be happier if she stopped being a billion-year-old clown, but she doesn't know how to do so and she's honestly more attached to the bit than she cares to admit to herself. Yeah the thing is, there's a very simple solution to Gog-Agog's predicament that doesn't even require her to stop being a demiurge. Forget it! Delete a bunch of those memories, throw it in the hole, be one of the actors again instead of insisting she's actually the audience. She won't, though.
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Feb 18, 2024 01:13
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Joe Slowboat posted:Yeah the thing is, there's a very simple solution to Gog-Agog's predicament that doesn't even require her to stop being a demiurge. Forget it! Delete a bunch of those memories, throw it in the hole, be one of the actors again instead of insisting she's actually the audience. Maybe she's done it before.
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Feb 18, 2024 01:14
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Buschmaki posted:Is it just me or does Allison go through cycles of believing in the power of violence, losing, renouncing violence, and then getting a little stronger and believing in violence again?
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Feb 18, 2024 02:02
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Allison has really only renounced violence once. She's renounced specifically Incubus' idea of 'you just have to get bigger and stronger and fight everyone' - and she's not doing that right now, she's trying to get Gog-Agog on side. She's making a team, she's not pursuing his kind of 'everyone is an enemy, trust no-one not even yourself' ambition. Gog is pushing her buttons, though, and is probably not get-on-sideable. What she really renounced against Incubus was giving in completely to main character syndrome and treating her friends as fundamentally lackeys and nonentities swept up in her wake. She didn't renounce violence when she went to Maya to learn how to sword super hard, though she got told that swording super hard probably isn't the ultimate answer. She did renounce violence briefly while recovering in Jadis' temple, but that was itself something she had to overcome, because it wasn't a principled dedication to nonviolence it was surrender in the face of the world. Then she did some spectacular violence to herself and others and came flying out of there like a bat out of hell.
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Feb 18, 2024 02:25
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Joe Slowboat posted:Yeah the thing is, there's a very simple solution to Gog-Agog's predicament that doesn't even require her to stop being a demiurge. Forget it! Delete a bunch of those memories, throw it in the hole, be one of the actors again instead of insisting she's actually the audience. According to her, though, she took this form to survive. Which suggests if she were to forget, she would lose the tools to persist from cycle to cycle, and she'd, well, die.
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Feb 18, 2024 02:30
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Rotten Red Rod posted:According to her, though, she took this form to survive. Which suggests if she were to forget, she would lose the tools to persist from cycle to cycle, and she'd, well, die. My impression was that she took the form to survive the first time the wheel got spun back, then kept on trucking from there. So a vast, vast quantity of those memories are irrelevant to her survival. Plausibly all of them, since her form is like, the physical kind of being she is. Also it's not like the original version of her wouldn't still be there if the cycle reset, she'd just lose this version of her. Samsaramaxxing.
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Feb 18, 2024 02:36
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Yeah, Gog is the insidious beast & acts like a clown because of having too much "wow! nice 'God of the Seven Part World!' For a clown to have! At the loving circus, loser!" kind of energy, directed at herself. Cause she's a failure & also trapped? Whatever. She's not actually a clown though, and is just being this for now, like all the other motifs that get picked up and dropped. The real gog is prob 2 spooky The surviving creature is real, not all this extra poo poo
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Feb 18, 2024 02:37
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the clown bit is a coping mechanism
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Feb 18, 2024 03:07
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Rotten Red Rod posted:According to her, though, she took this form to survive. Which suggests if she were to forget, she would lose the tools to persist from cycle to cycle, and she'd, well, die. What if I were to tell you I have a way to preserve a few thousand of your cells indefinitely, and the cells would be very healthy and happy inasmuch as it's possible to say that of cells, and all it would take is destroying most of your brain
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Feb 18, 2024 04:21
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FuturePastNow posted:the clown bit is a coping mechanism Gog Agog sincerely seems to enjoy spectacle and absurdity, so I'm not sure that it is. Not to be too hard on the woman but there's a part of her that's an impression comedian at heart, so she might just be like that.
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Feb 18, 2024 04:48
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Joe Slowboat posted:Allison has really only renounced violence once. Yeah, I don't think "violence vs nonviolence" is really even the principal question of K6BD -- it's more about the question of "if violence is the only tool that seems to have any effect versus the people perpetuating the cycle of violence, what do you do and how do you cope?" Rotten Red Rod posted:According to her, though, she took this form to survive. Which suggests if she were to forget, she would lose the tools to persist from cycle to cycle, and she'd, well, die. If the accumulated weight of your memories are what make you you, then retaining those memories is survival, and purposefully letting go of them is suicide. Of course, obsessively hoarding memories to preserve that distinction of self is a great way to be miserable.
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Feb 18, 2024 04:58
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It occurred to me that Gog Agog is the only demiurge to be completely upfront with Allison. Mottom had her whole thing of being terrified of her own empire, Incubus tried to turn her into pet ambition-ghouls. Jadis, like, tried? I guess? And she didn't do Allison any harm, but she's so inexorably yoked to causality her most defining statement is "it is what I do." Not as a principle but it is literally what she does. Jagganoth asked her to help eradicate everything, but let's be honest that was just a formality. But Gog has always been very straight-forward. "I'm your biggest fan. I'm made of worms and if you eat this worm you'll become me. How would you like to rule an empire?" I think Gog Agog is completely earnest in everything she says. Allison is a new wrinkle in a formula she's sick to death of paranoid randroid fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Feb 18, 2024 |
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Feb 18, 2024 05:23
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paranoid randroid posted:
Yeah I think so too. She probably has some sincere investment in Allison. Not enough to try to save her from Jagg as we saw. Or to do anything she wouldn't otherwise feel like doing either. But there's probably at least some genuine interest there. So maybe she can help Allison in some way even if it's just for her own amusement. Though its also pretty interesting that she's asking what does Allison want while Not-Cio is there climbing on the balcony. It's not something Allison would think to ask for because she's accepted that she's gone, but it's certainly a thing that Gog could dangle in front of her to piss her off if nothing else. It's a safe assumption that Gog at least knows a bit about Cio since she's been spying on Allison while she was in Throne (and probably for longer because why would she not). So something could possibly come of that. JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Feb 18, 2024 |
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Feb 18, 2024 05:41
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I think it's because Gog doesn't want anything from Allison. Mottom wanted Allison to save her, Incubus wanted a puppet, Solomon wanted to neutralize her, Jaggs wanted her to speed the end of the cycle, Jadis wanted her to give up, and Mammon... Well, Mammon is too brain broken to even really perceive her, but I guess he wanted her to end his suffering maybe? But Gog doesn't think she'll change anything, so she's just telling her the truth to freak her out and amuse herself. So I guess that's what she wants out of Allison - entertainment. JuniperCake posted:It's a safe assumption that Gog at least knows a bit about Cio since she's been spying on Allison while she was in Throne (and probably for longer because why would she not). So something's gonna come of that. It's pretty clear she knew she was hitting a vein there, so I'm sure she knew the whole situation.
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Feb 18, 2024 05:43
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JuniperCake posted:Yeah I think so too. She probably has some sincere investment in Allison. Not enough to try to save her from Jagg as we saw. Or to do anything she wouldn't otherwise feel like doing either. But there's probably at least some genuine interest there. So maybe she can help Allison in some way even if it's just for her own amusement. I suspect there was an element of "if she can't stop Jagganoth from murdering her then she's not worth caring about anyhow."
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Feb 18, 2024 05:48
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There's an interesting parallel in Allison being the barista in over her head and Gog Agog being the silly, faceless, idiot god developing into the Rising King and the Mass who's word is Beast respectively
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Feb 18, 2024 06:14
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Gog seems to keep pretty good tabs on what Allison is up to with sincere interest, and Allison is there to try to recruit Gog's help. Since this go-around seems to be different and somewhat interesting to Gog, I can see a good pitch going something like: "Hey, remember when I got a crew of misfits together and we went on a crazy bank heist? If you join up it's gonna be like that but bigger, and better, and waaaay more fun!"
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Feb 18, 2024 06:28
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paranoid randroid posted:It occurred to me that Gog Agog is the only demiurge to be completely upfront with Allison. Mottom had her whole thing of being terrified of her own empire, Incubus tried to turn her into pet ambition-ghouls. Jadis, like, tried? I guess? And she didn't do Allison any harm, but she's so inexorably yoked to causality her most defining statement is "it is what I do." Not as a principle but it is literally what she does. Jagganoth asked her to help eradicate everything, but let's be honest that was just a formality. But Gog has always been very straight-forward. "I'm your biggest fan. I'm made of worms and if you eat this worm you'll become me. How would you like to rule an empire?" Except Gog’s first major appearance was doing her “I’m a clown and your biggest fan” thing about how Allison should go fight “that meanie Solomon” back in King of Swords. Also “eat the worm.” Gog was less up front with Allison on her first interaction than Mottom, who immediately asked Allison to take her place and explained why; Incubus, who opened with “I’m one-seventh of God” and gave her exactly what he promised, even if it was presumably hosed and would end up destroying her (but it’s also just… part of him, his own ambition, so it’s not like he lied about what he gave) or Jagganoth, whose first move was to monologue and then do violence. Honestly Gog has already massively manipulated Allison to her own ends. This is Gog round 2 or 3, depending how you count Gog at the big battle. Gog-Agog has been significantly less up front with Allison than any other demiurge with the possible exception of Incubus, who’s a weird case.
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Feb 18, 2024 07:13
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Joe Slowboat posted:Except Gog’s first major appearance was doing her “I’m a clown and your biggest fan” thing about how Allison should go fight “that meanie Solomon” back in King of Swords. Also “eat the worm.” Allison has scars from what Mottom did to her, whereas the first time Gog Agog approached her she cranked Gog in the face and it was treated as a joke. Cio nearly split her head open when she was under Incubus's control e. wait sorry do you think im saying gog agog is good? gently caress no, the only demiurge i stan for is jadis paranoid randroid fucked around with this message at 11:04 on Feb 18, 2024 |
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Feb 18, 2024 10:35
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Gog is definitely trying to convince Allison to treat the whole situation the same way Gog does. Just like every demiurge Allison's had more than a few minutes' interaction with has done.
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Feb 18, 2024 11:12
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Joe Slowboat posted:She did renounce violence briefly while recovering in Jadis' temple, but that was itself something she had to overcome, because it wasn't a principled dedication to nonviolence it was surrender in the face of the world. Then she did some spectacular violence to herself and others and came flying out of there like a bat out of hell. It wasn't just violence she renounced in this case, though, it was any agency whatsoever.
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Feb 18, 2024 13:31
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paranoid randroid posted:the only demiurge i stan for is jadis Currently, Mottom and Grandpa Dog are the only two Good Demiurges.
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Feb 18, 2024 14:26
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oobey posted:Currently, Mottom and Grandpa Dog are the only two Good Demiurges. Mottom slaughtered billions in her name, and Mammon was just as bad until he went senile. None of them are "good" - if anything I'd say Solomon is the closest thing we see to it, but I just think thats because we don't see much of his empire outside of Ryuba. Honestly? You could make an argument for Jagganoth being the best demiurge. He hasn't bothered to conquer and rule the vast majority of his worlds. That seems better than being conquered by an authoritarian fascist like Solomon.
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Feb 18, 2024 15:48
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Mottom slaughtered billions in her name, and Mammon was just as bad until he went senile. None of them are "good" - if anything I'd say Solomon is the closest thing we see to it, but I just think thats because we don't see much of his empire outside of Ryuba. The joke is that the only good demiurge is a dead one.
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Feb 18, 2024 16:04
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WHELP -----> The joke ----> My head Whoosh
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Feb 18, 2024 16:07
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At this point it seems that it's more like Jadis's priesthood is doing the demiurginging and ruling of worlds. She's the former bearer of the word, after all. Do we know what the timeline was with Jadis seeing the shape vs the pact of the seven part world? It seems as though that would have required more agency than we've seen her express, but if the pact came before she must have still brought something pretty drat powerful to the table to be considered. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Feb 18, 2024 |
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Feb 18, 2024 16:10
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A.o.D. posted:The joke is that the only good demiurge is a dead one. Yeah, you do not in fact, "gotta hand it to em"
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Feb 18, 2024 17:37
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GunnerJ posted:It wasn't just violence she renounced in this case, though, it was any agency whatsoever. Yes, my point was that the only time she’s really renounced violence it involved renouncing all agency. Almost like that’s a core part of how this story analyzes violence and agency! That’s why Maya’s so hosed up about things, violence is a terrible thing and also it overtakes everything else. paranoid randroid posted:Allison has scars from what Mottom did to her, whereas the first time Gog Agog approached her she cranked Gog in the face and it was treated as a joke. Cio nearly split her head open when she was under Incubus's control So first off - the question wasn’t “who treated her best” it was “which demiurge was most upfront with her” - honest about their intentions, explaining themselves directly. And Gog-Agog laughed off the head punching precisely because she was manipulating Allison into the tournament in Rayuba, which is also how Cio died, so. Y’know. Secondly, Incubus never controlled Allison - this isn’t to say he’s a nice guy or healthy but to emphasize how Allison regained control of herself. He just helped her - he did ask first - to put her own drive to power in the driver’s seat, because that’s the whole point of Incubus’s offer and personality. He is totally unflinching and monstrous ambition and if you want, he can give you that same level of motivation. That will to power was all inside Allison; he just gave her a big sip of the Don’t Give A gently caress juice and she went with it. He couldn’t decide what she did while in that state. Which is also why regaining control didn’t mean kicking him out of her head, it meant coming to terms with having a part of her that wanted power like that.
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Feb 18, 2024 18:09
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What was the deal with the weird shadow-Jadis on the cover art?
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Feb 18, 2024 18:51
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Duodecimal posted:What was the deal with the weird shadow-Jadis on the cover art? What about it? I thought it was on point, thematically.
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Feb 18, 2024 19:56
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Joe Slowboat posted:Yeah the thing is, there's a very simple solution to Gog-Agog's predicament that doesn't even require her to stop being a demiurge. Forget it! Delete a bunch of those memories, throw it in the hole, be one of the actors again instead of insisting she's actually the audience. maybe that's what happened to her memories of "the very start".
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Feb 18, 2024 22:15
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Duodecimal posted:What was the deal with the weird shadow-Jadis on the cover art? That she was active outside her cube? Also, pretty correct to what she is, she just presented as benevolent because she wants to help. But she's a corpse in glass trying to convince other people to act like her, a ghost haunting Allison.
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Feb 18, 2024 22:34
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Duodecimal posted:What was the deal with the weird shadow-Jadis on the cover art? it represents her memories and self loathing 
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