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rscott posted:I've seen this for months. A lot of "if leftists really cared about Palestinians they would want them to be safe no matter where they were" and completely eliding over the fact that any evacuation out of Gaza would be a one way trip, and the whole 80+ year history of ethnic cleansing in Palestine Israeli pro-genocide rhetoric being stupid, disingenuous, and evil aside, I've been wrestling with the refugee situation - particularly regarding the Egyptian border. In drat near any other situation, probably including the very relevant Nagorno Karabakh cleansing, I would necessarily be strongly supportive of throwing the border(s) wide and letting in as many Palestinians as want to escape. Them being trapped sucks. Them fleeing is also the ideal outcome for Israel and making it easy for Israel to force them out """voluntarily""" would leave a really bad taste in my mouth. I don't like anything about the dichotomy. -- Re the West Bank: yes more of the settlers (and the Israeli government psychos backing them) should be sanctioned. If this were another country, we'd be talking about chilling effects and hurting more people than the targets of the targeted sanctions. This isn't my first rodeo, and indeed, previous sanctions discussions hereabouts have shifted me toward wanting them used more sparingly outside of situations like this. The US also seems to have successfully imposed material restrictions on their arms sales (and iirc canceled the provision of those rifles) to reduce the likelihood of them getting to settlers or being used in the West Bank. The administration has done actual material things to differentiate its treatment of the Aest Bank that it has not done in Gaza (outside of some wildly insufficient humanitarian aid and maybe getting Israel to ease the blockade / allow more water in). If accelerating some arms sales counts as material aid to the genocide, and I think it does, then some targeted sanctions and reduction in arms supply count as material anti-aid to the West Bank settlers. The US is in fact treating the two areas differently. If the US said "no actually we aren't going to provide you with anything that might be used to do a genocide in Gaza" (so cutting back to just Iron Dome, I guess), that would be very good and broadly accepted as Doing Something. Giggs posted:"Well, the president framed the government of the victims of an ongoing genocide that he's explicitly participating in as terrorists who must be eradicated, and that's not 'exactly good' but ..." Now you're just searching for things to get mad at. Starting to think peppering my newsposting etc with "of course Israel doing a genocide is bad and the Biden admin's approach is a failure" doesn't actually do anything. Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Feb 19, 2024 |
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Feb 19, 2024 20:55
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Google Jeb Bush posted:Now you're just searching for things to get mad at. Starting to think peppering my newsposting etc with "of course Israel doing a genocide is bad and the Biden admin's approach is a failure" doesn't actually do anything. It's because you're linking a press event in which Biden, genocidal bag of poo poo that he is, claims that this genocide is just a war between Israel and a terrorist organization, continues blathering about October 7th as if that justifies anything, and reinforces that he will continue to let Israel do whatever it wants until Hamas is defeated, and a comprador government can be installed. The background to keep in mind is that Biden is currently working to send Israel another large pile of bombs and JDAMs, and that the US is backing the genocide to the hilt, with no signs of there even being red lines for Israel to cross. When you adopt a weirdly hopeful tone as if this presser is merely "not exactly good", and say that you're "reading the tea leaves", and that there might be signs of the negotiations to divine from this press event, it's coming off like wishful thinking entirely divorced from what was actually said. How do you expect people to respond?
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Feb 19, 2024 21:36
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Google Jeb Bush posted:Now you're just searching for things to get mad at. Starting to think peppering my newsposting etc with "of course Israel doing a genocide is bad and the Biden admin's approach is a failure" doesn't actually do anything. Google Jeb Bush posted:The continued rhetorical dedication to Hamas delenda est on Biden's part isn't exactly good (it's pretty much impossible at this time etc etc) but there are a lot of tea leaves to read,[...] What does "the Biden admin's approach is a failure" mean to you? It seems to me that you believe the Biden Admin has some intent to stop the genocide or hold accountable its perpetrators, but my memory fails to note any such stated goals. What have they failed to accomplish? The Biden Admin is in fact protecting Israel from any consequences, protecting them from whatever public incrimination (UN resolutions etc) they have control over, and are providing them with arms as much as they are able. So the purpose of my snarky post was that you are ignoring both the actions and the words of Biden('s Admin) and instead choosing to interpret them in a way you find more agreeable, even referring to tea leaves which will provide you hidden messages from whatever hidden, divine entity you seem to think is secretly trying to save the millions of people they're materially condemning to starvation, disease, mutilation, and death. Their words and actions are entirely in alignment with the outcomes we've witnessed.
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Feb 19, 2024 23:27
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The bits I'm interested in from that presser are mostly the King of Jordan's side and anything we might be able to glean about the backroom talks that he and miscellaneous other regional states are engaged in. I really don't think that wanting to focus on those and root for a good outcome is a ridiculous stance to take. biden blurb, not super informative other than Egypt and Qatar being the other major players: quote:As the King and I discussed today, the United States is working on a hostage deal between Israel and Hamas, which would bring immediate and sustained period of calm into Gaza for at least six weeks, which we could then take the time to build something more enduring. I don't think it's going to be useful for us to discuss Biden's verbal takes on humanitarian aid and rafah and I won't be digging up actual info on US aid to Gaza this post, so let's skip ahead to the Jordanian part: quote:We cannot afford an Israeli attack on Rafah. It is certain to produce another humanitarian catastrophe. The situation is already unbearable for over a million people who have been pushed into Rafah since the war started. yes, it's still a press conference rather than something with actual material-conditions meat, but publicly and to Biden's face going "ceasefire right now immediately" and "this manufactured UNRWA thing is dumb and evil" is a bit stronger than I was expecting I mentioned the Hamas thing in my insufficiently-enraged way because it provides another data point along the lines of that Jacobin opinion-adjacent article from before in trying to figure out the actual dominant internal narrative in the Biden administration. As a prewritten public event it doesn't necessarily tell us what Biden's personal thoughts actually are, but at bare minimum he's happy to keep beating the drum of Israel's flimsy justification: that they have to keep invading because they have to destroy Hamas, and the US is okay with that.  Which is bad. I don't usually like trying to discuss what's going on inside Biden's head because it's difficult to really establish factually during a presidency unless the president is Donald Trump. It leads to people getting very mad about other people's wildly different interpretations of the few publicly available facts. Unfortunately, when the US-Israel buck stops with Biden there actually is value in trying to figure out what he thinks vs what falls out of the administration collectively.
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Feb 19, 2024 23:33
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With impeccable timing for the discussion going on ITT, the US drafted a weaker version of the Algerian resolution that had previously been threatened with a veto, it calls for a "temporary ceasefire" contingent on hostage release. It also demands that they not currently proceed with an invasion of Rafah as well as allow aid to enter unhindered. It's not much but it is a departure from diplomatic tracking up until now. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/19/us-proposes-un-resolution-calling-for-temporary-ceasefire-in-gaza
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Feb 19, 2024 23:39
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“Hamas should give up their leverage, and in turn get a temporary ceasefire that the Israelis totally pinky-swear to honor, temporarily”
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Feb 19, 2024 23:54
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Oh, one other thing that bugs me about the press conference: I could have sworn that previously sources were noising around an eight week ceasefire for further negotiations (not enough, possibly unacceptable to Hamas). Here Biden and Abdullah are talking about six weeks. Could be nothing, could be a small but lovely development.Kagrenak posted:With impeccable timing for the discussion going on ITT, the US drafted a weaker version of the Algerian resolution that had previously been threatened with a veto, it calls for a "temporary ceasefire" contingent on hostage release. It also demands that they not currently proceed with an invasion of Rafah as well as allow aid to enter unhindered. It's not much but it is a departure from diplomatic tracking up until now. Draft isn't posted but AJ says they've seen it. The aid language “lifting all barriers to the provision of humanitarian assistance at scale” is mildly interesting (for a hypothetical resolution with no obvious teeth) because it goes a step further than just lifting the border blockade. Hamas is probably still not going to like giving up all their remaining hostages for a temporary, "maybe we'll get another agreement before Israel resumes doing an active genocide" measure.
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Feb 19, 2024 23:56
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Google Jeb Bush posted:I don't usually like trying to discuss what's going on inside Biden's head because it's difficult to really establish factually during a presidency unless the president is Donald Trump. It leads to people getting very mad about other people's wildly different interpretations of the few publicly available facts. Unfortunately, when the US-Israel buck stops with Biden there actually is value in trying to figure out what he thinks vs what falls out of the administration collectively. Ehhh, I think trying to argue what is going on inside Biden's head is pretty pointless, as we covered on the last page. Words, thoughts and prayers are nice and all, but talk is cheap, and it ultimately doesn't matter if it doesn't lead to a change in behavior. What matters is how he acts, and his actions speak for themselves: He is allowing Israel to continue implementing their solution to the Palestinian question, with American funding and political support. I guess it's nice that the King of Jordan is saying some of the right things, but I'd be surprised if the leader of a country that's twenty percent Palestinian didn't.
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Feb 20, 2024 00:07
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Looks like Brazil has had it with Israel and cut diplomatic ties. https://www.albawaba.com/news/brazil-expels-israeli-ambassador-1553791 They're not a HUGE portion of Israel trade, and afaict they haven't interdicted it yet, but this is a bad sign for Israel.
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Feb 20, 2024 00:31
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The genocide is becoming increasingly expensive for Israel to continue. Trade is severely impacted. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-war-hits-israeli-economy-with-194-q4-drop-2024-02-19/ https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-02-19/israel-economy-slumps-from-war-with-far-worse-drop-than-forecast quote:Exports dropped 18% and imports slumped over 42%
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Feb 20, 2024 00:53
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https://x.com/CraigMokhiber/status/1759590460295647495?s=20 UN experts expressing alarm over allegations of the arbitrary execution of Palestinian women and girls, often with their family members including their children, the arbitrary detention of Palestinian women and girls, and sexual assault and threats of sexual violence.
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Feb 20, 2024 01:52
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Esran posted:The genocide is becoming increasingly expensive for Israel to continue. Trade is severely impacted. quote:"The contraction of the economy in the fourth quarter of 2023 was directly affected by the outbreak of the Iron Swords War on October 7," the statistics bureau said.
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Feb 20, 2024 03:00
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Google Jeb Bush posted:Looks like Brazil has had it with Israel and cut diplomatic ties. I don't that means complete severing of diplomatic ties, but goddamnit we should
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Feb 20, 2024 03:43
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All talk from the US about a ceasefire deal at this point is just propaganda for US liberals, as netanyahu has ruled out any deal that involves a substantial release of prisoners held by Israel, and Hamas has said that any invasion of rafah will take any deal off the table for the time being. Netanyahu would like all the hostages to die because they're a nuisance for him, and Hamas will never give them up for anything less than a permanent ceasefire and a substantial release of prisoners. The US will not acknowledge this because a large part of their propaganda is pretending that Biden is trying to work towards a hostage release, rather than just allowing netanyahu all the time he needs to further the genocide.
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Feb 20, 2024 04:24
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https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1759779892634202420 Well this seems bad but not unexpected at this stage unfortunately
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Feb 20, 2024 06:09
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1759779892634202420 Credible fools in the replies immediately jumping on Israel's propaganda that actually it was Hamas trying to steal all the aid!
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Feb 20, 2024 15:40
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Fidelitious posted:Credible fools in the replies immediately jumping on Israel's propaganda that actually it was Hamas trying to steal all the aid! Not to be that guy, but I think you mean credulous?
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Feb 20, 2024 16:25
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KillHour posted:Not to be that guy, but I think you mean credulous? the accusation of foolishness is credible
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Feb 20, 2024 16:30
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theCalamity posted:https://x.com/CraigMokhiber/status/1759590460295647495?s=20
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Feb 20, 2024 16:37
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UN Security Council vote on an immediate ceasefire and what a loving surprise, America votes against and UK abstains. Motion doesn't pass, what an absolute disgrace.
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Feb 20, 2024 16:42
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FlamingLiberal posted:Looking forward to all of Israel’s surrogates screaming that this doesn’t matter because the UN is just a wing of Hamas "what about all the women Hamas raped ??"
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Feb 20, 2024 16:43
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frytechnician posted:UN Security Council vote on an immediate ceasefire and what a loving surprise, America votes against and UK abstains. Motion doesn't pass, what an absolute disgrace. Don't worry we have our own much worse and more toothless version of it.
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Feb 20, 2024 17:45
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The US has just vetoed the new ceasefire resolution at the UN, being the single country in session to vote against it. It's the third such veto. I assume it's to make their own offer for a 6-week ceasefire on looser terms viable. It's supposedly going to drop in the next few days. If Israel also rejects of stonewalls this offer, it would be a massive humiliation of the USA by an ostensible ally. Brazil has recalled its ambassador from Israel, joining Chile, Turkey and about a dozen other countries. A bunch of European countries have stated positions directly calling for a ceasefire now: Every country but Hungary wants an end to hostilities before the programmad assault on rafah.
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Feb 20, 2024 17:52
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Sephyr posted:Every country but Hungary wants an end to hostilities before the programmad assault on rafah. orban just a fan of violent cleansings, or what?
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Feb 20, 2024 18:16
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Zionists and antisemites can make great friends. "I don't want Jews living in my country" and "Jews should live in an ethnostate" aren't incompatible goals.
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Feb 20, 2024 19:11
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Sephyr posted:Every country but Hungary wants an end to hostilities before the programmed assault on Rafah. Good to see them being consistent on being on the wrong side of everything I guess. I wonder if it's their being some bastion of un-wokeness by the American right since the GOP position seems to be 'do it harder'.
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Feb 20, 2024 19:38
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Oscar Wilde Bunch posted:Good to see them being consistent on being on the wrong side of everything I guess. I wonder if it's their being some bastion of un-wokeness by the American right since the GOP position seems to be 'do it harder'. Rod Dreher is living there and just charged up his christian ki and reached chud-sayan level 4.
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Feb 20, 2024 20:23
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Sephyr posted:The US has just vetoed the new ceasefire resolution at the UN, being the single country in session to vote against it. It's the third such veto. If - and I use the word very loosely because I have no confidence in it, but allow it for the sake of argument - if the US manages to secure a ceasefire then I wonder if anyone will even actually feel it vindicates their political strategy here. I'm sure that the American angle would be "We had to shoot down the other attempts because Israel wouldn't agree, but by keeping them on board we have something effective." but it would seem pretty obvious that leading a global effort for a ceasefire would have better luck than opposing it and doing your own. It's going to be very bleakly amusing if Israel does defy the US though, burning all that goodwill while arguing Israel will listen and then they don't.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:29
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https://twitter.com/ryangrim/status/1760001856388882895?t=qwuNvOxVbbpNgvyx-pobhA They’re in a dangerous neighborhood. A neighborhood they made dangerous themselves. And the excuse for still sending weapons is weak.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:55
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I think most of the bondoggle over securing a ceasefire is that Israel and the Us need to come up with some strategic victory to dress it up. "Sure, we got hit bad and humiliated on Oct 7, but look! We got Destruction of Hamas/50k dead 'terrorists/Reclaimed Gaza as jewish in return! So it's a W for us! We're strong!" Except most of those goals are not realistic, or cannot be achieved with their current troop of 22-year-old chud Major Generals, or are just blatant ethnic cleansing. My personal guess is that the US offer of Ceasefire took so long, and likely will keep taking longer, is that israeli diplomats keep kicking the jenga tower and resetting to phase 1. The inside governing coalition under Bibi keeps shifting and becoming more reactionary and aggressive, so they can barely finish a draft before it has something that is no longer acceptable to some faction Bibi needs to appease. "This item lets Gaza keep too much water. Rewrite everything!" They could also just be deliberately wasting time and running out the clock as they keep the assault going, knowing the they will never be called out on it. I give it 50-50.
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Feb 20, 2024 23:02
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Esran posted:Zionists and antisemites can make great friends. "I don't want Jews living in my country" and "Jews should live in an ethnostate" aren't incompatible goals. Back before WW2, Polish zionists were actively cooperating with at least vaguely antisemitic Polish government and sometimes even with very clearly antisemitic right wing organizations like Młodzież Wszechpolska - their agreement was based on two points: "we don't want you here and you don't want to live here, take our money and get the hell out to Palestine" and "we hate each other, but we hate Bund (Jewish socialists) more".
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Feb 20, 2024 23:26
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Szarrukin posted:Back before WW2, Polish zionists were actively cooperating with at least vaguely antisemitic Polish government and sometimes even with very clearly antisemitic right wing organizations like Młodzież Wszechpolska - their agreement was based on two points: "we don't want you here and you don't want to live here, take our money and get the hell out to Palestine" and "we hate each other, but we hate Bund (Jewish socialists) more". Avraham Stern, of Stern Gang fame, attempted to ally with the Nazis against the British in 1941. The Nazis turned him down. In 1980, Israel created a ribbon honoring members of his organization.
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Feb 20, 2024 23:36
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Sephyr posted:!" It's 100% this, no stated US policy towards the Gaza situation has had anything to do with the reality on the ground. They have no actual solution other than to let Israel keep doing what they're doing and protect them as much as possible. The US ceasefire proposition is for a temporary ceasefire in exchange for all hostages released and no Palestinian prisoners released. This is completely unserious and bears no relation to the goals of Hamas or the netanyahu government.
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Feb 20, 2024 23:44
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Sephyr posted:The US has just vetoed the new ceasefire resolution at the UN, being the single country in session to vote against it. It's the third such veto. Sephyr posted:I think most of the bondoggle over securing a ceasefire is that Israel and the Us need to come up with some strategic victory to dress it up. "Sure, we got hit bad and humiliated on Oct 7, but look! We got Destruction of Hamas/50k dead 'terrorists/Reclaimed Gaza as jewish in return! So it's a W for us! We're strong!"
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Feb 20, 2024 23:50
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Your Brain on Hugs posted:It's 100% this, no stated US policy towards the Gaza situation has had anything to do with the reality on the ground. They have no actual solution other than to let Israel keep doing what they're doing and protect them as much as possible. The US ceasefire proposition is for a temporary ceasefire in exchange for all hostages released and no Palestinian prisoners released. This is completely unserious and bears no relation to the goals of Hamas or the netanyahu government. The US backed deal which they took to Israel involved 1,500 Palestinian prisoners being released. The US offering terms favorable to them wasn't the issue on that one: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/07/netanyahu-rejects-gaza-ceasefire-deal-and-says-victory-is-within-reach-israel Israel isn't a literal puppet state of the US where we have full control of their decisions, we need to actually squeeze them to get them to stop this poo poo. The US refusing to apply any pressure at all is why there isn't a deal being worked out.
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Feb 20, 2024 23:54
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Not sure if this has already been posted, but I thought this was a very thoughtful, crushing, but also uplifting (from the fact at how resilient and kind these people are) newsletter about visiting Palestinians in the West Bank and what they have to endure, from the sabotage of their civil infrastructure projects to random beatings and violence. At one point settlers teenagers stick an assault rifle in the journalists face. It also highlights that while Gaza is its own nightmare, no one has any intention of stopping the slow transformation of the West Bank into the exact same situation with the exact same outcome. Sanctions aren't doing poo poo.
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Feb 21, 2024 00:15
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https://twitter.com/tparsi/status/1760066523752714355?t=KTO2RCYMI0EPqGyHDL7r6g&s=19 This sums it up pretty well, the United States' resolution is a sham that gives Israel continued free reign everywhere but Rafah. I'm sure Netanyahu and crew will still throw a fit though about having any kind of restraint imposed on them and I'm pretty sure they'll flout the resolution anyways
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Feb 21, 2024 00:20
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quote:'Soldiers “took rugs, blankets, [and] kitchen utensils,” and explained that there was no briefing on the matter from the army either before entering or while in the field. “There was zero talk about it from the commanders,” he said. “Everyone knows that people are taking things. It’s considered funny — people say: ‘Send me to The Hague.’ It doesn’t happen in secret. The commanders saw, everyone knows, and no one seems to care.”' sitting here hoping someone finds a washing machine looting video so we can make the professional naked imperialism mashup
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Feb 21, 2024 00:32
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A lot of news about more and more civilian casualties but not a lot recently about any actual fighting. Are there still any signs of resistance by Hamas apart from Israel calling anyone their soldiers shoot Hamas? Has Israel stopped reporting on losses or is there just not much going on resembling an armed conflict anymore? Could it be that Hamas is already essentially neutralised, as in they don't have enough resources to pose any real short/mid-term danger to Israel?
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Feb 21, 2024 03:32
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Paladinus posted:A lot of news about more and more civilian casualties but not a lot recently about any actual fighting. Are there still any signs of resistance by Hamas apart from Israel calling anyone their soldiers shoot Hamas? Has Israel stopped reporting on losses or is there just not much going on resembling an armed conflict anymore? Could it be that Hamas is already essentially neutralised, as in they don't have enough resources to pose any real short/mid-term danger to Israel? Sources Ive seen have Israeli vehicular losses at a trickle compared to even a day in Ukraine. It very well could be a mix of both though, with neither self-reports or evidence shown by Hamas due to different factors.
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Feb 21, 2024 05:17
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