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B B posted:Wow, didn't ping you as an inside-job kinda guy. I was speaking hypothetically. If Osama was still alive, then you want to try and court him to kill a bunch of people on your watch if we are taking the data literally. It is kind of strange that someone seems to have happened in the 90's. Trump got no credit with Democrats for the stimulus checks and Obama got no credit with Republicans for being skeptical of race-based affirmative action or cutting spending. Whereas, Democrats were much more willing to give George H.W. Bush and Reagan credit/approval when he did something they liked. Even Republicans gave the dreaded Jimmy Carter positive approval when he did something they liked.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:10
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Kchama posted:So was Trump not President and aiding Israel when they were still doing their genocide 2016-2020? He was. But now he is not and we are seeing a genocide play out in front of us and our current president helping it along with aid.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:11
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What could have possibly happened in the 90s that heightened partisanship and resulted in politics being treated as a team sport rather than a serious collaborative effort?
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Feb 20, 2024 21:12
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Aztec Galactus posted:If Trump tells you a list of things that he is going to do, and you actually think he's going to do that, you are a big of a rube as his supporters. He seems to deliver just fine if you're an evangelical or a racist, so I don't feel the whole "he won't do what he promises!" thing comes from with him. No one cares about having a real wall. They just like the idea that is supposedly exists or will exist and "owning the libs" in the process.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:12
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Zwabu posted:This is the “red flag baiting the bull into the electoralism argument” post that seems to pop up at least every several pages in this thread. Someone announces how they are going to vote or not vote completely unsolicited. Please don’t do this. Around 80% of abortions happen in the first 24 weeks. If you shrink that down to 16 weeks, then it is probably around 70 to 75%. People who don't want abortion banned, but who do want tax cuts or to close the border, no longer have that reservation when voting for Trump now. And if people attack him saying he wants to ban abortion, then he can say, "No, I want to explicitly leave it up to the states. But, we aren't going to have people aborting babies right before they are born under me because I am protecting life and personal freedom." It's about getting those soft 20% of Republicans and independents who think banning abortion is a deal breaker, but lean towards Republicans on crime, immigration, or the economy/taxes. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Feb 20, 2024 |
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Feb 20, 2024 21:14
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:I was speaking hypothetically. If Osama was still alive, then you want to try and court him to kill a bunch of people on your watch if we are taking the data literally. Yeah, it was just a joke. The wording gave me a chuckle is all.  Zwabu posted:This is the “red flag baiting the bull into the electoralism argument” post that seems to pop up at least every several pages in this thread. Someone announces how they are going to vote or not vote completely unsolicited. Please don’t do this. So there is evidence that support for abortion access drops the further you get into pregnancy, and 16 weeks is around a point where you can get something around a majority to support restrictions:  Honestly, if VA Republicans hadn't stepped on their own dicks and been caught behind closed doors talking about an outright abortion ban, the VA elections last year might have gone a bit differently. We'll see if national Republicans make the same mistake. Regardless of support, though, this isn't something that the national Democratic Party should give an inch on, and Biden's talk of his opposition to "abortion on demand" is very unhelpful.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:15
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theCalamity posted:He was. But now he is not and we are seeing a genocide play out in front of us and our current president helping it along with aid. Yes, so that's why I was questioning why the guy who enabled a lotta genocide, not just of the Gazans, is getting a pass on the whole genocide thing. I'm not saying Joe Biden shouldn't be nailed for his role, but pretending that the Genocide Don isn't perfectly fine with betraying American allies to the ole genocide seems kind of silly. Eric Cantonese posted:He seems to deliver just fine if you're an evangelical or a racist, so I don't feel the whole "he won't do what he promises!" thing comes from with him. "He won't do what he says when it comes to things I dislike but only on things I like!" was a thing a lot of people who voted for him told themselves.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:15
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Morrow posted:What could have possibly happened in the 90s that heightened partisanship and resulted in politics being treated as a team sport rather than a serious collaborative effort? Right, I think increased partisanship is probably the answer. But, it is strange that 1992 was the trigger year and not Richard Nixon, LBJ, Vietnam, Ronald Reagan, etc. Somehow, none of those things jacked up the partisanship and/or reluctance to approve of someone from the other party.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:17
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Kagrenak posted:Brb I gotta make a pitch to the board. Time to fire up the Osama cloning division, we'll make a fortune juicing the polls. Technically you only need the one Osama suspended in a quantum superposition
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Feb 20, 2024 21:19
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:George H.W. Bush was the last President to actually get a lot of people from the other party to approve of his performance when he did something they liked (even if they didn't actually vote for him because of it). Something caused that to stop (with the exception of the two Osama events) after 1992. Republicans began bathing in a toxic Fox/Rush media soup 24/7 around this time. My mom used to vote reliably GOP for decades because they were the name brand anti communist American political party. She stopped during the George W Bush administration because it was just too much failure incompetence and corruption. She’s a wonderful lady but I’m sure if she’d been a Fox News addict she’d still be a Republican. As I’ve said in Bigger Boat’s right wing media thread, I believe the main effect of marinating in right wing media is not so much converting non right wingers to right wing as it is keeping people on the team. Filling their head with so much oatmeal that you always have some talking point about why the right is right and left is wrong for every situation. No matter how ridiculous or weak the talking point is, no matter how easily it crumbles under the slightest scrutiny, it serves a valuable purpose and keeps people on the team. Most people are never forced to do even the most cursory examination of their views so even the weak stuff served up by a Jesse Waters or Tucker works fine. I think before the era of 24/7 Fox there was an ebb and flow of party affiliation that happened with big failures like economic depression, Vietnam War etc. Not so much now.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:21
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Zwabu posted:I wonder if they immediately reported the incident or just meekly went back to the waiting area to pretend like nothing happened until someone reviewed security cam footage. Who let Mr. Bean into the frozen embryo storage?!
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Feb 20, 2024 21:22
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Zwabu posted:Republicans began bathing in a toxic Fox/Rush media soup 24/7 around this time. It applies to Democrats too. Democrats generally approved of Bush's Medicare drug plan (until they later turned against it, but I think most people probably didn't think much about the specific policy details at the time beyond "there is no Medicare prescription drug benefit right now, there will be if this passes"), but did not say they approved of him passing it after he did. Democrats approved of stimulus checks, but didn't give Trump any credit for it. Although, I guess you could say that the Fox/Rush media soup was the trigger for all of it because Democratic resistance kicked up in response to it and/or the 2000 election. Edit: I don't really have any thesis or anything with this discussion. It's just interesting how fluid approval used to be and how there was just a hard line in the 90's that literally nobody, except Osama Bin Laden - twice, could impact ever again. Just a weird bit of data and interesting to talk out loud about it. Edit 2: It's not even just the opposite party. People mostly stopped disapproving of politicians from their own party over specific policies too. The general economy and personal likability/scandal are the only things that drive immediate negative approval changes in voters of any party or independents now. It's kind of a worrying sign that "be likeable and charming and do nothing" seems to be what Americans are telling people they want when it comes to public policy. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Feb 20, 2024 |
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Feb 20, 2024 21:25
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B B posted:I think we call Genocide Joe "Genocide Joe" because he's the one actively participating in the genocide and preventing the UN from calling for a ceasefire. As far as we know, Donald Trump isn't currently providing any material support in the way that Joe Biden continues to do. I am sure that if Donald Trump manages to win the presidency from Joe Biden and provides material support to the genocide, you'll see people criticizing Donald Trump with similar language. Trump provided plenty of material support, political support, and moral support to the genocide when he was in office. After all, the Israeli genocide of the Palestinian people - including the brutal massacres, bloody airstrikes, and starvation tactics - started long before October 2023. Uncle Boogeyman posted:I don't have the numbers handy, do we know how many Palestinians were genocided during the Trump presidency vs. during the Biden presidency? Doesn't really matter, does it? It's not like the difference in death count is the result of differences in their policies. In any case, there's no complete numbers and never will be. Why? Because no one's counting the deaths to hunger, sickness, polluted water, electricity shortages, vigilantism, and simple despair. They only count the bombs and the bullets. That way, everyone can pretend that there's no genocide during those time periods where Hamas is in no shape to engage in active resistance as Israel slowly starves Gaza to death. Much like in many other historical mass genocides, the shooting and bombing isn't the primary instrument of murder. It's merely an attempt to destroy Palestinians' will and/or ability to resist. When armed resistance isn't happening, starvation, sickness, and exposure to the elements are how the genocide is truly carried out. Nobody's counting those deaths as part of this genocide, and a ceasefire won't stop them from happening either.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:30
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:I was speaking hypothetically. If Osama was still alive, then you want to try and court him to kill a bunch of people on your watch if we are taking the data literally. The rise of the right-wing echosphere is what happened. Reagan's efforts to undo the fairness doctrine finally started to come to fruition as Clear Channel, Sinclair Broadcasting and Fox all rose in prominence and started giving the Right a central message to organize around.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:30
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Main Paineframe posted:Trump provided plenty of material support, political support, and moral support to the genocide when he was in office. After all, the Israeli genocide of the Palestinian people - including the brutal massacres, bloody airstrikes, and starvation tactics - started long before October 2023. This is all of course true, the genocide has been going on for 75 years at least, but didn't it see a pretty major escalation after October 2023? Main Paineframe posted:Doesn't really matter, does it? It's not like the difference in death count is the result of differences in their policies. I would imagine it matters very much to those affected by it.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:34
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I get the fact that people are criticizing Biden for his Israel/Palestine policy because he's the man in the big chair right now. What I do not agree with (but I totally get) are anyone saying "well, it'd be the same under Trump," because you just have to look at what Trump did during his time at the White House and also look at the people advising him and also look at the rhetoric coming out of the GOP wing of Congress and you should know he will quickly find ways to be worse. But trying to explain to some passionate and well-meaning people, especially those of Middle Eastern descent, that they need to accept with one of the ugliest "lesser of two evils" choices is understandably a super hard sell. I've been beaten down by the world long enough to be able to accept the idea of "Vote all the time, even if it sucks," but I get why younger people might feel differently. It would be nice to be in a better timeline than the one we live in now.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:38
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:This is all of course true, the genocide has been going on for 75 years at least, but didn't it see a pretty major escalation after October 2023? Yes, or at least the bombings did, but that wasn't due to any policy change on the US's behalf.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:40
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:This is all of course true, the genocide has been going on for 75 years at least, but didn't it see a pretty major escalation after October 2023? His point was that Israel would be going on the hot-war genocide no matter who was in charge in October 2023. And it escalated because Hamas killed more Israelites in one day than had been directly killed in 20 years. Which was only a tenth of the number that had been directly inflicted on Palestine in 20 years. So outside of outright invading Israel to stop them, Israel was gonna go on its genocide spree no matter what. Biden hasn't helped, and in fact has hurt, but Trump screamed about how he would be invading Gaza if he had been president. So we have a good idea of how Trump wished he could have hurt Gaza far worse than Biden has.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:43
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Great discussion of electoralism outside the electoralism thread
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Feb 20, 2024 21:43
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zoux posted:"Don't do anything, ever" seems to be the takeaway. Trump did all sorts of things, all of them absolutely horrible, and the net total failed to consistently move his needle downward, too. The conclusion would seem to be do whatever the gently caress you want as president. Nothing you actually do or fail to do will impact your reelection. It's all just vibes. Even right wing media was minimal as a cultural force in the early 90s. The blame would seem to be more on Newt Gingrich.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:43
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The final version of the "Plan B" for student loan forgiveness under the Higher Education Act will have public hearings on Thursday and Friday. Then, there will be a mandatory waiting period before the plan is finalized and released for public comments in May. Because of the Supreme Court ruling, the forgiveness plan can't be blanket forgiveness and has to go to definable targeted groups. Currently, the categories they are considering including as targeted groups are: - Borrowers who received Pell grants. - Borrowers are at least 80 percent likely to default on their debt within the next two years. - Borrowers whose balances have increased higher than their original loan amount because of interest. - Borrowers who have had loans that originated more than 20 years ago. - Borrowers who attended "low performing" schools. - Borrowers experiencing "financial hardship" because of loans. The last bullet point is the big sticking point when trying to determine how many people it will cover and what counts as "hardship." Those specifics are what is going to be discussed at the hearing this week. https://twitter.com/politico/status/1758236396899192889 quote:White House expands plans to cancel student debt Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Feb 20, 2024 |
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Feb 20, 2024 21:49
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The two-party system means that when one party concretizes into an immovable bloc of support, the other one does as well. There is nowhere for them to go if the other party is unacceptable (and third parties remain fringe jokes)
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Feb 20, 2024 21:50
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Kchama posted:Yes, so that's why I was questioning why the guy who enabled a lotta genocide, not just of the Gazans, is getting a pass on the whole genocide thing. I'm not saying Joe Biden shouldn't be nailed for his role, but pretending that the Genocide Don isn't perfectly fine with betraying American allies to the ole genocide seems kind of silly. Yeah Trump shouldn’t get a pass for it. I interpreted your post as complaining that Joe was getting called that while Trump wasn’t and if that ain’t your intention then I’m good. Also, Genocide Don doesn’t roll of the tongue as well as Genocide Joe. Gotta use some alliteration or rhyming.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:54
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zoux posted:"Don't do anything, ever" seems to be the takeaway. Conversely, it seems to imply you can do whatever you want and it won't negatively affect you, so go nuts
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Feb 20, 2024 21:54
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The final version of the "Plan B" for student loan forgiveness under the Higher Education Act will have public hearings on Thursday and Friday. Hey well at least the 20 year old rule would apply to me! Also, in my hurry to try to save $10k by consolidating my private loan to a direct loan last year... I capitalized $10K of interest and offset any benefit I'd actually get lol.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:56
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theCalamity posted:Yeah Trump shouldn’t get a pass for it. I interpreted your post as complaining that Joe was getting called that while Trump wasn’t and if that ain’t your intention then I’m good. No I can understand why you'd interpret me like that, even if it wasn't my intent. Sorry. Murder Rump doesn't sound as good, sorry. Nothing does.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:59
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The big problem is "The Genocide Don" sounds like a title Trump would actually like to have.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:01
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Even right wing media was minimal as a cultural force in the early 90s. The blame would seem to be more on Newt Gingrich. No. Fox really hit their stride during the Clinton administration. Gingrich was of course a big part of it too as he really introduced the modern hyper partisan hostage taking politics to the GOP. This type of politics and having your own popular media network your voters listen to all day is like the peanut butter and chocolate in a Reese’s.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:04
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Lemming posted:Conversely, it seems to imply you can do whatever you want and it won't negatively affect you, so go nuts Biden pulled out of Afghanistan and his approvals have never recovered.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:05
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Zwabu posted:No. Fox really hit their stride during the Clinton administration. Gingrich was of course a big part of it too as he really introduced the modern hyper partisan hostage taking politics to the GOP. I mean, I had cable and a radio then. I remember. Over the course of the 1990s as a whole it got dramatically worse yes but in the early 90s local radio stations were still prevalent and established media like CNN, ABC, etc still dominated. The Contract With America wasn't until 1994. It was 911 that I remember as really turbo charging the development of fox news and Limbaugh. Prior to that it was growing, after the wave of post 911 insanity it was dominant.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:12
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In a rare case of the Supreme Court deciding not to destroy a progressive policy just because they can, they have declined to hear an appeal challenging New York's recently strengthened rent stabilization law.quote:The high court on Tuesday said it would not consider two cases brought by landlords of rent-stabilized buildings in Long Island City and parts of Manhattan who argued the regulations prevented them from evicting tenants after their leases expired. But the court didn’t entirely rule out the possibility of future challenges.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:12
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zoux posted:Not an issue with a threadable needle, which is why it continues to drag the GOP down on the ballot and will continue to do so until reproductive freedom is a specifically enumerated federal right. This was glossed over pretty quickly when when did reporters suddenly get clearance to say "crazy poo poo"? Probably my biggest achilles heel that kept me out of broadcasting would be my inability to sugar up a statement like "Trump's crazy poo poo-for-brains rear end said more dick lies loving untethered to reality as goddamn usual"
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Feb 20, 2024 22:12
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The final version of the "Plan B" for student loan forgiveness under the Higher Education Act will have public hearings on Thursday and Friday. Sorry, there's only one Plan B that the White House press corps is interested in https://twitter.com/HowardMortman/status/1760014042083512702
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Feb 20, 2024 22:15
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zoux posted:Biden pulled out of Afghanistan and his approvals have never recovered. Yeah, but is it permanently low because of that or did it just get to the steady state faster? I seriously doubt many people would even remember that off the top of their head
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Feb 20, 2024 22:15
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Scags McDouglas posted:This was glossed over pretty quickly when when did reporters suddenly get clearance to say "crazy poo poo"? Probably my biggest achilles heel that kept me out of broadcasting would be my inability to sugar up a statement like "Trump's crazy poo poo-for-brains rear end said more dick lies loving untethered to reality as goddamn usual" Cable TV in general has greatly loosened up its self-censorship in the past decade or so. Now you can say virtually anything that used to be restricted to HBO or R-rated movies. If someone complains about it, they can point to the universality of TV program ratings and the parental controls section of your TV's menus Personally, I blame the moment the New York Times decided to name "Pussy Riot" on the front page. The sky didn't fall and then there was no reason to keep pretending we didn't all know and use these words all the time
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Feb 20, 2024 22:17
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Scags McDouglas posted:This was glossed over pretty quickly when when did reporters suddenly get clearance to say "crazy poo poo"? Probably my biggest achilles heel that kept me out of broadcasting would be my inability to sugar up a statement like "Trump's crazy poo poo-for-brains rear end said more dick lies loving untethered to reality as goddamn usual" I think it was allowed because she was directly quoting. You could even see her look at her paper like "Oh no he said this" as she emphasized it.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:18
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CNN in particular were positively giddy about Trump's "shithole countries" quip.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:21
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Lemming posted:Yeah, but is it permanently low because of that or did it just get to the steady state faster? I seriously doubt many people would even remember that off the top of their head It's because he took away the media's toy war where they got to ride in choppers and dress up and play serious war corespondent. They'll never forgive him.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:24
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:I would imagine it matters very much to those affected by it. Only if the difference is because of who is in the chair. Do you think the Palestinian body count would have been lower 2016-now if Trump had remained in power? It seems like this is what you're trying to imply without actually saying it.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:26
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Only if the difference is because of who is in the chair. Also reminder, Trump moved the embassy to Jerusalem and tore up the Iran deal. Both of those decisions helped cause what is happening now.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:31
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