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my bony fealty posted:Shouldn't the vigilante crew have continued their work and not just targeted the scientists The ladies had little power when it came to the mine itself. They were able to do what they did at Tsalal because it was isolated and only had 12 dudes in it. They chose their fight and did what they wanted to do in that respect but that doesn't mean their war was over. If Danvers hadn't released Clark's video confession resulting in the mine being shut down then the cycle of violence would continue. It wasn't exactly a perfect happy ending, the indigenous population is still going to suffer under the colonial/capitalist/resource thieving system I expect Dr Who hosed off back to Anchorage or wherever he was from, and the mining lady probably bailed with a golden parachute when the mine went tits up. There is no justice for characters like them, they are gears in the system of oppression and will continue making the world a worse place wherever they go because they are spiritually bankrupt.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:13
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Golden Bee posted:Danvers, meanwhile, distrusts mysticism because she wants to finally get over the pain of losing her husband and son. She embraces the conspiracy on both ends (Covering for the women, embracing the official slab avalanche conspiracy) and seems happy about it. We never get to see how her relationship changes with Leah or Prior Jr. Does she stop drinking and driving? Torturing suspects? What’s the new normal for the Ennis police, now that Liz abandoned her duty to uncover crime? The one thing I'll push back on is that Danvers' embracing the conspiracy on both ends is just superficial. The only reason that the mine/Anchorage are pushing the slab avalanche theory is so that they can avoid revealing the mine/pollution conspiracy. Danvers just plays them; she embraces the slab avalanche theory, letting the indigenous women off the hook, but then reveals the mine/pollution conspiracy anyway.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:50
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Tender Bender posted:Why did the mine need to keep the cops out of the cave anyway, they should have just removed the murder weapon, "we can't let anyone in here, because the murder weapon is just sitting around waiting for someone to find it." is another backwards AI-logic piece of writing. lol I just remembered the posters with AI generated art and Issa Lopez saying it was supposed to look dumb and lovely and they did it on purpose.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:55
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CHaKKaWaKka posted:lol I just remembered the posters with AI generated art and Issa Lopez saying it was supposed to look dumb and lovely and they did it on purpose. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqaCEPwWGtc&t=9s
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Feb 20, 2024 22:09
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I will say that I liked the shot in the final episode where Navarro is standing with the flashlight in her parka outshining her face and making her look like the cover art of The Thing. That was a cool shot. Mordja posted:-First off, there's the fact that they're all men. The only reason for this is so the show can have its Big Empowering Moment later on. It's also funny considering how heavily the dead scientists were based on Dyatlov Pass which had women among the victims.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:27
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It’s the same weirdness that creates a Mattel board in the Barbie movie that’s all identical men, when the actual board is seven men and five women. I like the character of mine-operator Kate and wish they had done more with her. they could’ve cut two of the 30 scenes of Leah being angsty or Navarro’s sister restating that she’s experiencing spiritual schizophrenia, just like her mother (cue sad cover of Material Girl).
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Feb 20, 2024 22:48
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Honestly this could have fit better as a Red Mirror miniseries. But I guess it's a bit of a trend now to eternalise acclaimed tv shows with badly written seasons. I have a feeling that was always a trend in content, really.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:48
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Turpitude posted:-I think there are plenty of reasons a woman would not want to be doing science at that station, most of all because she would be stuck with a bunch of men in the middle of nowhere. If you are saying Tsalal should have been 6 men 6 women or something, perhaps on paper, but that's not how it works in real life. There are plenty of jobs that are male dominated. And yes it does tie in to the theme of violence against women, because that's what happens in male-dominated power structures and because, (based on her previous film) Issa Lopez is interested in the subject matter I agree with all of this reasoning with the caveat that it was all done incredibly hamfisted. No nuance whatsoever. - Every guy in the show is a dope or an rear end in a top hat - All the scientists were dopes or assholes - None of the scientists objecting and people thinking Clarke was lying when he said he objected to the killing means they're all part of the bad guy monolith. - The star shaped wound was come the gently caress on both from being a murder weapon and being a clue - The cleaning ladies not coming forward with obvious evidence because the two women cops who by and large seem to have power and influence in their police station wouldn't believe them - Posters thinking that the scientists were lying about their research based on a prejudiced view of aformentioned bad guy monolith
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Feb 20, 2024 23:00
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I've been trying to analyze for myself just why it is I wanted the supernatural elements of True Detective to not only be more present in the series, but also more real, which is what got me excited for this season in the first place yet, despite being real, completely fell flat for me. First I'll just explain that I'm saying "the spooky stuff is real" because there are many times in the series that completely unexplained, similar events happen to multiple characters. The ghost girl visits more than one person, the orange is thrown at more than one person, "she's awake" is heard by more than one person, and then there's Anne's tongue, which the vigilante ladies have zero reason to lie about. Navarro is constantly visiting the afterlife, she talks to Danvers dead kid and her mother (or maybe sister but I'm going with mother because they could've shown her sister's face if it was her) to get her real name, so the afterlife is real too. At least out here in Night Country. OK, so we've established there is a real, supernatural element here. Then why isn't it fun? Now I think (sorry for bringing it up again if you haven't watched it or don't like it [which makes you a crazy person]) about Fargo and the fact that it has very real supernatural elements. Why is it that the supernatural stuff in that show works but in this one it doesn't? Why did it work in Season 1 but not Season 4? I don't have a full answer but I think I have a hint of it and maybe this is a discussion people would be interested in carrying. I think the question is how much of the show is supernatural and how much does it matter. In Fargo, you could describe the actions of the supernatural in 1-5 sentences per season. It's very sparse, just enough to be curious but not enough to warrant investigation. In all cases, it also doesn't really matter what the supernatural element is. It's shown or mentioned, a result occurs from it, and the show moves on. There's no real concern over why it happens, no concern over the implications of it being a real thing, it's merely there to move a plot point (sometimes) and the show goes on. It's almost cute, in a way, even if it's something spooky. I'm being vague and not providing exact details because I wouldn't want to spoil that show for anyone, ever. Then you come to Night Detective where the supernatural elements are thick and meaty, constantly referred to by then native people of the area, known in stories and song. It interjects into the lives of those who do not believe in it, it becomes a reason for actions, and it is the resolution to asked questions. Yet despite all the importance of these spooky goings ons, the show simply says "make of it what you will." It shrugs hard. "A story is just a story" is the conclusion we get. "Is it all real? Maybe!" says the producer during an interview. And it's happening in a detective/mystery show. Now, maybe this is why it leaves a bad taste in the mouth but then the question becomes, what would have worked? And I honestly don't know.
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Feb 20, 2024 23:06
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Did they say in the early episodes that Annie K was strangled in addition to being stabbed? Don't remember
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Feb 20, 2024 23:20
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Doltos posted:I agree with all of this reasoning with the caveat that it was all done incredibly hamfisted. No nuance whatsoever. I agree a lot of it was quite hamfisted, I think the show probably got hosed with quite a bit with the transition from the stand alone thing it was originally conceived as into a TD universe show. I feel like the CGI caribou suicide of the first scene was some nonsense made up by an executive. I liked the overall vibe and concepts of what they were trying to do so I am definitely giving them the benefit of the doubt on some of the issues that others have more of a problem with. The locals had no reason to trust the cops. Both Danvers and Navarro were outsiders. Going to the cops could have just as easily come back on the ladies with Prior Sr being a tool of the mine. They live in a place where there has been no justice for a long time. None of their complaints about the mine poisoning the town were taken seriously. The cops enforced the mine's will violently against the protesters. I think their choice to seek extrajudicial justice and retribution against the Tsalal boys makes sense given what we are shown. I don't think the scientists were lying about their research, they may have genuinely believed they were trying to do something really good. But why should we believe them, or trust their point of view, when they are complicit in all the evil going on just outside their little enclave? They don't have to worry about their wives having stillbirths, their families are quite pointedly not living in the village that they are murdering. They maintained themselves as outsiders so they would not experience the discomfort of the evil they were a part of. This was going on long before Annie disturbed their conspiracy, their evil actions were sustained and maintained by their cover up.
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Feb 20, 2024 23:22
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DaveKap posted:I've been trying to analyze for myself just why it is I wanted the supernatural elements of True Detective to not only be more present in the series, but also more real, which is what got me excited for this season in the first place yet, despite being real, completely fell flat for me. First I'll just explain that I'm saying "the spooky stuff is real" because there are many times in the series that completely unexplained, similar events happen to multiple characters. The ghost girl visits more than one person, the orange is thrown at more than one person, "she's awake" is heard by more than one person, and then there's Anne's tongue, which the vigilante ladies have zero reason to lie about. Navarro is constantly visiting the afterlife, she talks to Danvers dead kid and her mother (or maybe sister but I'm going with mother because they could've shown her sister's face if it was her) to get her real name, so the afterlife is real too. At least out here in Night Country. OK, so we've established there is a real, supernatural element here. Then why isn't it fun? Part of it is that the supernatural stuff is the most cliche poo poo imaginable. Ghostly whispers, flickering lights, a shadowy figure in the background moving at unnatural speed. All we needed was an old lady in the walls. This season upped the horror and made it boring. Then there's the fact that those elements were vital in both the case's discovery and resolution, pure deus ex machinae writing, completely absent from S1's hints towards the weird.
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Feb 20, 2024 23:28
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Turpitude posted:They knew that they were all stooges of the mining corporation and they knew they were covering up and hiding poo poo. The hidden hatch in the floor had the murder weapon within it. Their little secret lab down there was in an area considered sacred by the locals (iirc--I think they said somewhere that the ice caves had spiritual/ancestral significance). The wrath of the village women wasn't just about Annie but about everything wrong with Ennis, the stillbirth epidemic, the suicides, the abuse of power, the injustice. The scientists were never innocent, they were sucking up money from the mining corporation and encouraging the pollution leading to the suffering of the local population. No they didn't. The cops only found out the scientists and the mining corporation were related after digging into the tuttle tax records. It's a major plot point that nobody in the town knew what they did much less that they were responsible for anything wrong with Ennis, the stillbirths, suicides, etc. None of that was connected to Tsalal. If they knew why didn't they protest them too, instead of just at the mine? And nowhere in the final recap does the leader of the cleaners mention anything other than the murder of Annie K.
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Feb 20, 2024 23:33
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DaveKap posted:Then you come to Night Detective where the supernatural elements are thick and meaty, constantly referred to by then native people of the area, known in stories and song. It interjects into the lives of those who do not believe in it, it becomes a reason for actions, and it is the resolution to asked questions. Yet despite all the importance of these spooky goings ons, the show simply says "make of it what you will." It shrugs hard. "A story is just a story" is the conclusion we get. "Is it all real? Maybe!" says the producer during an interview. And it's happening in a detective/mystery show. Now, maybe this is why it leaves a bad taste in the mouth but then the question becomes, what would have worked? You don't know because there's likely no satisfying answer. What ultimately would have worked is something more akin to TD1, where the supernatural elements could be waved away as a) products of one person's altered mind and b) utterly inconsequential. The moment your supernatural poo poo is a) showing up for everybody and b) directly impacting the real world, you've gotta deal with that in a meaningful way because it creates enormous conflict and not dealing with it means unresolved conflict which means an unsatisfying story. If I had to hash something more interesting and coherent out of TD4, I'd say tone down the supernatural stuff just enough to where by the end of the six episodes we have Navarro believing it a little bit less and Danvers believing it a little bit more. Neither comes away completely convinced one way or the other, but neither walks away without some fundamental belief about the world having been shaken.
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Feb 20, 2024 23:37
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No, no True Detective this year. 
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Feb 20, 2024 23:46
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It just hit me that Leah's relationship with Danvers was repaired by her 15 year old girlfriend bailing on her when she started getting beaten by a cop. Danvers really earned that one, huh?
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Feb 21, 2024 00:13
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Another reason that the supernatural elements of 4 don't work is that you're trying subconsciously to build a shared demonology between it and 1. Like you have to accept that the oblique, existential evil worshipped by a child-murdering sex cult, which just might, if you squint at it a particular way, be eroding causality, shares a universe with orange-rolling poltergeists
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Feb 21, 2024 00:20
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College Rockout posted:No they didn't. The cops only found out the scientists and the mining corporation were related after digging into the tuttle tax records. It's a major plot point that nobody in the town knew what they did much less that they were responsible for anything wrong with Ennis, the stillbirths, suicides, etc. None of that was connected to Tsalal. If they knew why didn't they protest them too, instead of just at the mine? And nowhere in the final recap does the leader of the cleaners mention anything other than the murder of Annie K. Oh yeah you are right. They only knew about the murder by Tsalal boys. The mine was still an enemy and there was an attempt at her murder being blamed on her anti mine activity as part of the cover up. edit: DaveKap posted:It just hit me that Leah's relationship with Danvers was repaired by her 15 year old girlfriend bailing on her when she started getting beaten by a cop. Danvers couldn't repair that relationship before because she was a broken person. The show doesn't show the actual repair of that relationship, but it does show her reaching catharsis when she finally listens to the message from her dead son and then finds the truth and redeems her previous actions by getting the mine shut down. Getting the mine shut down probably did a lot of the work to making Leah trust her again. Turpitude fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Feb 21, 2024 |
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Feb 21, 2024 00:30
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Turpitude posted:The locals had no reason to trust the cops. Both Danvers and Navarro were outsiders. Going to the cops could have just as easily come back on the ladies with Prior Sr being a tool of the mine. They live in a place where there has been no justice for a long time. None of their complaints about the mine poisoning the town were taken seriously. The cops enforced the mine's will violently against the protesters. I think their choice to seek extrajudicial justice and retribution against the Tsalal boys makes sense given what we are shown. That's fair I made the cardinal sin of having viewer omniscience that the characters wouldn't have. I could totally see them distrusting Danvers easily and same with Navarro even though she could possibly be receptive to the Natives' plight.
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Feb 21, 2024 01:04
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I found another weird thing about the scientist characterization that bothered me when I was watching: They all immediately jumped to murder Annie K, right? That means they’re violent and impulsive. They’ll kill instantly to protect their survival. Why the gently caress didn’t any of them charge the women with rifles when it was clear alternative was dying in the tundra? The reason is probably “because having bullet wounds would make this crime obvious and not supernatural, and there’s no way the detectives could discover she casings if they weren’t at the Tsalal facility.” The same reason that electric outages affect everything, even if the thing has its own battery (the cars in the parking lot or the iPhone cameras.) I completely agree that the supernatural was overwhelming and yet boring. Navarro gains information from the supernatural realm. The men were spooked to death on the ice or the veterinarian we waited all episode for was an idiot. The tongue was Annie very very indirectly making sure that her boyfriend is punished. (I don’t know why she didn’t just give a vision to Navarro that pointed to Hank, the murder location, the murder weapon, etc.). It led Rose to the bodies. Feels like a lot of supernatural help compared to Kate sending the dumbest cop in the world to shoot a junkie. Then again, the ghost possessed one of the dying scientist… So he could freak out Navarro. Unless that one is just her being schizophrenic. Golden Bee fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Feb 21, 2024 |
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Feb 21, 2024 01:24
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The thing that bugs me is Annie finds the secret lab, okay fine, but the things she finds are all completely consistent with the type of both equipment (drilling) and results (ice cores) that one would find as a result of their legit work. Absent a whiteboard message of Always Be Evil I don't see what she saw that would necessitate the freak out.
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Feb 21, 2024 02:13
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I didn't really like this show.
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Feb 21, 2024 02:20
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Imagine if the conclusion to season 1 after they solved the crime had been Rust’s suicide because Carcosa was calling to him. And how it’s a positive thing actually. Look at him haunt Marty! Isn’t that wholesome?
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Feb 21, 2024 02:23
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DaveKap posted:I've been trying to analyze for myself just why it is I wanted the supernatural elements of True Detective to not only be more present in the series, but also more real, which is what got me excited for this season in the first place yet, despite being real, completely fell flat for me. First I'll just explain that I'm saying "the spooky stuff is real" because there are many times in the series that completely unexplained, similar events happen to multiple characters. The ghost girl visits more than one person, the orange is thrown at more than one person, "she's awake" is heard by more than one person, and then there's Anne's tongue, which the vigilante ladies have zero reason to lie about. Navarro is constantly visiting the afterlife, she talks to Danvers dead kid and her mother (or maybe sister but I'm going with mother because they could've shown her sister's face if it was her) to get her real name, so the afterlife is real too. At least out here in Night Country. OK, so we've established there is a real, supernatural element here. Then why isn't it fun? it works in fargo because it is well written unlike night country. simple as
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Feb 21, 2024 02:45
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The actions of the scientists at Tsalal make more sense if you imagine the research station as akin to a medieval monastery in the middle of nowhere and remember that medieval monks were well known for being batshit crazy. I would have no problem assuming that the scientists were absolute whack jobs that were only able to fund their research by faking the numbers of the mine's environmental impact and could barely stand each other, let alone an outsider (especially a woman). Maybe Tuttle corp. is fine with hiring scientists who are talented or have enough grift to pass as talented, but also have some sort of severe personality disorder that makes them otherwise unemployable in the normal world. I tuned out after the fourth episode. Glad I did because it looks like so much of the series was wasted potential or weird poo poo that doesn't really serve a purpose. The whole thing feels, not lazy because I don't want to call it lazy, but rushed. Like the creators just had to go with what they had on hand and so you have parts that make no loving sense or seem half-baked.
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Feb 21, 2024 02:47
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:The thing that bugs me is Annie finds the secret lab, okay fine, but the things she finds are all completely consistent with the type of both equipment (drilling) and results (ice cores) that one would find as a result of their legit work. Absent a whiteboard message of Always Be Evil I don't see what she saw that would necessitate the freak out. I think Clark said something about her finding some notes of his which must have just read MORE POLLUTION=GOOD
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Feb 21, 2024 02:55
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Golden Bee posted:I found another weird thing about the scientist characterization that bothered me when I was watching: Those men were cowards. They could pollute and destroy the community but hid out in their clubhouse so they didnt have to see it. They could murder one unarmed woman but when faced with death they pissed themselves and ran away.
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Feb 21, 2024 03:07
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Mordja posted:MORE POLLUTION=GOOD unambiguously correct
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Feb 21, 2024 03:09
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Golden Bee posted:
the most reasonable explanation for what happened. 
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Feb 21, 2024 03:09
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I mean, if I was running a secret evil lab I'd probably mop my own floors but
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Feb 21, 2024 03:17
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:I mean, if I was running a secret evil lab I'd probably mop my own floors but Or maybe put a lock on the hatch or any number of things You can invent reasons like "the scientists had too much hubris to do that" to fill in the gaping missteps in the writing but none of it's in the show so what's the point
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Feb 21, 2024 03:19
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Oh your girlfriend's an anti mining activist? Sure she can sleep over unattended
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Feb 21, 2024 03:27
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I can believe the scientists being gigantic pieces of poo poo considering one of them decided to blast Ferris Buehler's Day Off loud enough for the entire station to hear it through the walls
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Feb 21, 2024 03:30
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my bony fealty posted:Or maybe put a lock on the hatch or any number of things The classic writing technique of "tell in a random interview after the fact", don't show.
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Feb 21, 2024 03:33
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Mordja posted:The classic writing technique of "tell in a random interview after the fact", don't show. The plague started with the "after the show" bits and now every show has an official companion podcast that presumably does stuff like this, it's awful for TV
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Feb 21, 2024 03:40
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Turpitude posted:I don't think the scientists were lying about their research, they may have genuinely believed they were trying to do something really good. But why should we believe them, or trust their point of view, when they are complicit in all the evil going on just outside their little enclave? Because if they really are scientists, then there should be tons of evidence to support a claim like that. Or they're just crackpots posing as scientists who have turned a theory into an irrational obsession worth killing for. Leaving that part ambiguous is not a great message when bullshit anti science stuff is on the rise like antivaxxers and climate change deniers. I guess after the whole plot point where more pollution helps them extract a delicate frozen microbe from the permafrost intact is already so loving stupid and backwards and dangerous that this whole clusterfuck of a story is already beyond redemption anyways.
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Feb 21, 2024 03:42
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So it turned out to be some Scooby Doo poo poo without any Scooby or Doo. All I got from this is HBO is poo poo now.
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Feb 21, 2024 03:48
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lol the scientists were too lazy to buy a better dril so they turned a comically big knob labeled "cancer juice"
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Feb 21, 2024 03:49
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setting aside Season 4 briefly in this post - maybe I'm crazy but the old man makeup/special effects for the two leads in Season 3 has got to be some of the best I've ever seen on TV or film
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Feb 21, 2024 03:55
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Mokelumne Trekka posted:setting aside Season 4 briefly in this post - Oh, 100%
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Feb 21, 2024 04:02
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