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Uncle Boogeyman posted:To me it seems like the Biden and Trump administrations aren't/weren't ignoring Palestinians in Gaza so much as actively facilitating their genocide. Am I wrong about that? Much like previous administrations, they're continuing to aid Israel (just as the US has continued to do since long before Gaza was turned into a giant ghetto) while largely ignoring the plight of civilians in Gaza. In terms of what they want for Palestinians, Biden, like the pre-Trump presidents, seems to prefer a two-state solution in which the Palestinian Authority gets control of Gaza and much of the West Bank, subject to a number of "security" conditions demanded by Israel. Trump himself probably doesn't care what happens to the Palestinians at all beyond his general dislike for Arabs, but several of his close confidants - including the ones he put in charge of his administration's dealings with Israel - are hardcore settlement supporters who have little interest in an independent Palestine.
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Feb 21, 2024 01:26
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Main Paineframe posted:Much like previous administrations, they're continuing to aid Israel (just as the US has continued to do since long before Gaza was turned into a giant ghetto) while largely ignoring the plight of civilians in Gaza. I guess I just think this is a pretty charitable way to put it. “Ignoring their plight” reads much softer to me than “assisting in their extermination” but maybe some would view that as a distinction without a difference.
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Feb 21, 2024 01:32
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https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1760056767780716675 DoJ is alleging that SMIRNOV, the principle source for the whole Biden crime family House investigation bullshit, was connected to Russian intelligence. I believe this is meddling in elections, from Russia, and not a hoax.
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Feb 21, 2024 01:34
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https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing...n-america-tour/ Biden admin putting a bunch of / bunch more money into clean water investment, including but not limited to the total replacement of remaining lead pipes in the US over the next ten years.
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Feb 21, 2024 01:39
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Yawgmoft posted:They attacked military bases. But a regular? Either they're trolling to try provoke people, or worse. It's the equivalent of a blood libel: it's an intentional lie that is being spread to justify extermination. Anyone who has been on these forums since October should know this. Hey you! If you don't know this, click that link right now! It takes 5 seconds! You can just say "over 700 civilians killed" and be perfectly truthful! Over 700 civilians were killed in the attack. That's bad enough. Why lie? If you want to say the full toll, you can say "over 700 civilians killed, 100 police and security, and 300 soldiers" to be thorough or you can say "over 1100 people killed" and that's still perfectly truthful! "1400 civilians killed" is just an outright lie. And why are we talking about soldiers off duty and at a Starbucks? Talking about soldiers who may be indistinguishable from civilians is just muddying the waters. The soldiers in question were killed and taken prisoner at their bases when Hamas overran them. Those are the ones who cannot count as civilians.
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Feb 21, 2024 02:01
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Right, I think increased partisanship is probably the answer. It was losing the White House after holding it for 12 years and developing a sense that it was theirs by divine right.
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Feb 21, 2024 02:04
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Those both contributed to a lot of instability in the region, but the thing that caused the current conflict is that Hamas launched an attack that killed 1,400 Israeli civilians. Unless Trump had a hand in planning that, then I don't think you can really blame him directly for the current conflict. While this is true, I was thinking that moving the embassy increased tension. Tearing up the Iran deal (and assassinating Qasem Soleimani) severely damaged diplomatic channels between the US and Iran. Iran backs Hamas. I'm not saying if the Iran Deal was still in place that it might be easier to reach a ceasefire or peace deal, but it certainly didn't help matters that it was no longer around. I admit I am doing a lot of speculating here and probably am outside of the realm of just USCE talk.
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Feb 21, 2024 02:09
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:I guess I just think this is a pretty charitable way to put it. “Ignoring their plight” reads much softer to me than “assisting in their extermination” but maybe some would view that as a distinction without a difference. That's just semantics. Ultimately, I choose "ignoring" because it's not like US policy toward Israel changed* after Israel started bombing Gaza. Biden continued the USA's decades-long policy of "continue to send military aid to Israel no matter what happens", regardless of what Israel may or may not be doing to Palestinians at any given moment. Thus the word "ignoring". It's not like they sent the aid because Israel was bombing Gaza, but it's not like they stopped aid because Israel was bombing Gaza either. Israel's attitude or actions toward Gaza just aren't really a consideration in US actions, at all - no matter what Israel does, the US ignores it and continues to shovel the aid over. *Actually, there is one very important change after Oct 7th. The Biden administration has put substantial pressure on Israel in regards to their West Bank policies, going so far as to withhold some military aid over it and even impose some sanctions. Highly targeted sanctions and highly targeted withholding of military aid, to be sure, but it's not nothing!
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Feb 21, 2024 02:26
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Jimbozig posted:Anyone still saying "1400 civilians" on these forums here in February is doing it on purpose. Being charitable, maybe someone who doesn't read this sub very often or who has just stumbled in here might not be expected to know. Also a significant chunk of those casualties' were caused by the IDF firing on their own in blind indiscriminate panic McCloud fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Feb 21, 2024 |
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Feb 21, 2024 02:32
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McCloud posted:Also a significant chunk of those casualties' were caused by the IDF firing on their own in blind indiscriminate panic Source?
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Feb 21, 2024 02:46
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https://www.nbcnews.com/news/3-israeli-hostages-tried-only-killed-military-rcna130912 For the record I'm very much pro Biden and don't want to be linked to Genocide Joe camp here, but the IDF has absolutely terrible fire discipline and this is a great example of it. quote:Haim then ran back inside the building and called out for help in Hebrew. The battalion commander held fire. But when Haim re-emerged in the doorway, another soldier, against the orders of the commander to not fire, shot him dead, according to a preliminary assessment. The soldiers reportedly said they had not fully understood their commands.
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Feb 21, 2024 03:02
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Raenir Salazar posted:Source? I'm curious about this, too. I've seen eyewitness testimony to IDF gunships firing on fleeing vehicles, tanks firing on kibbutz houses, infantry emptying small arms fire through doors and walls, and to the IDF shooting hostages rather than attempting to negotiate with the hostage-takers, all on Oct 7th. But the poster you're responding to said that those sorts of incidents made up a "significant chunk" of the killing and I don't have any idea whether that is true or not and I have never seen even an estimate as to what that number might be. It could be 3 people or 300 for all I know. If any such estimate exists, I would also love to see it. I'd even be interested in an obviously biased estimate - like if the IDF tried to estimate the number, that would at least give us a lower bound.
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Feb 21, 2024 03:03
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Morrow posted:https://www.nbcnews.com/news/3-israeli-hostages-tried-only-killed-military-rcna130912 But this doesn't sustain the assertion of a "chunk" of those over 1100 casualties being from friendly fire though, a chunk probably being somewhere between 20% to 45%; not like single digits. Friendly fire incidents happen in all armed conflicts, so I wouldn't be surprised if it happens, but the part that seems extraordinary is the idea that a large portion of those casualties is from friendly fire.
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Feb 21, 2024 03:07
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There were claims from less then reputable sources days after 7th October that said soldiers opened fire on people but those claims have been debunked but still get repeated. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2023/oct/13/instagram-posts/reports-of-260-deaths-at-israeli-music-fest-are-no/
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Feb 21, 2024 03:08
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Madkal posted:There were claims from less then reputable sources days after 7th October that said soldiers opened fire on people but those claims have been debunked but still get repeated. I don't see the debunking of the claim "that said soldiers opened fire on people" there.
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Feb 21, 2024 03:11
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It would be a good idea to move Israelchat to the relevant thread.
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Feb 21, 2024 03:15
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https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1760056767780716675 https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1760058482026250328 “A particular hotel”“Guests at the hotel” So reading between the lines Russian intelligence had taps on all the people who stayed at the DC Trump hotel. also "club" is probably marsalogo.
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Feb 21, 2024 03:17
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Yeah the GOP is pretty thoroughly compromised by Russia and has been for years I never stopped believing that the Russian collusion was real, it was totally real
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Feb 21, 2024 03:20
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Trazz posted:Yeah the GOP is pretty thoroughly compromised by Russia and has been for years Dude asked Russia to hack his opponents right out in public at a rally, then it happened We all saw it happen
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Feb 21, 2024 03:21
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Dude asked Russia to hack his opponents right out in public at a rally, then it happened sure but i assume its deeper then that, some of it is dirt and poo poo but i think a decent amount of it is weird useful idiot poo poo. Like JD vance and couple others i could see working for russia for some bullshit "they are a city on a hill and will help us fight china and THEM".
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Feb 21, 2024 03:25
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It's super cool and good how the FBI and CIA seem to be doing jack poo poo about our government and the Republican Party in particular being infiltrated by Russian agents in a way that Joe McCarthy would be orgasmic about.
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Feb 21, 2024 03:29
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davecrazy posted:It's super cool and good how the FBI and CIA seem to be doing jack poo poo about our government and the Republican Party in particular being infiltrated by Russian agents in a way that Joe McCarthy would be orgasmic about. only trust your fists
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Feb 21, 2024 03:32
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davecrazy posted:It's super cool and good how the FBI and CIA seem to be doing jack poo poo about our government and the Republican Party in particular being infiltrated by Russian agents in a way that Joe McCarthy would be orgasmic about. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/03/fbi-leaks-hillary-clinton-james-comey-donald-trump "The FBI is Trumpland" They don't care, they just like Trump
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Feb 21, 2024 03:39
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davecrazy posted:It's super cool and good how the FBI and CIA seem to be doing jack poo poo about our government and the Republican Party in particular being infiltrated by Russian agents in a way that Joe McCarthy would be orgasmic about. They were only ever mad about the communism.
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Feb 21, 2024 04:17
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zoux posted:https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1760056767780716675 It was never a hoax that Russia did some interference. The hoax was that Hillary Clinton was martyred by that dastardly Russia, and that it wasn't just one of ten thousand mostly self inflicted cuts that killed her campaign. davecrazy posted:It's super cool and good how the FBI and CIA seem to be doing jack poo poo about our government and the Republican Party in particular being infiltrated by Russian agents in a way that Joe McCarthy would be orgasmic about. On top of a history of being worthless fucks, the FBI has been comprised mostly of Republicans for a while. So of course they're not going to investigate themselves.
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Feb 21, 2024 05:27
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Raenir Salazar posted:Source? https://middleeastobserver.org/2023/10/29/new-evidence-that-idf-shelled-israeli-citizens-on-oct-7-killing-over-a-hundred/ quote:According to Haaretz, the army was only able to restore control over Be’eri after admittedly “shelling” the homes of Israelis who had been taken captive. https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rkjqoobip quote:Casualties fell as a result of friendly fire on October 7, but the IDF believes that beyond the operational investigations of the events, it would not be morally sound to investigate these incidents due to the immense and complex quantity of them that took place in the kibbutzim and southern Israeli communities due to the challenging situations the soldiers were in at the time. https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israeli-helicopter-shot-civilians-7-october-rave-police-find quote:Israeli helicopter shot civilians at 7 October rave, police find
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Feb 21, 2024 05:34
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Your source lacks any numbers, what # amounts to a significant chunk?
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Feb 21, 2024 05:56
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The electronic intifadah (and I can't believe I am saying this) is one of those sources that has been disproven a few times already.
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Feb 21, 2024 06:14
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BRJurgis posted:Personally feel this is actually a really fertile ground for productive discussion (though obviously difficult). I guess it would be nice to have a productive discussion. Towards that end: I assume most of us here are US citizens. Most of us agree there's a genocide going on, and that it's being funded by our tax dollars. The president has repeatedly bypassed congress to send weapons the genocide-doers are using to do the genocide. The president has provided both military and diplomatic cover for said genocide. At present, essentially everyone in Gaza is homeless and starving, while Israel is planning to destroy the last not-totally-destroyed refuge, which will almost certainly cause mass death by starvation/dehydration/disease as it will make the delivery of aid impossible. That is: Said genocide is very likely, absent intervention by our government to restrain Israel, to get exponentially worse very soon. Some questions for discussion:
To avoid double-posting:
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Feb 21, 2024 07:12
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Gyges posted:It was never a hoax that Russia did some interference. The hoax was that Hillary Clinton was martyred by that dastardly Russia, and that it wasn't just one of ten thousand mostly self inflicted cuts that killed her campaign. Why are you so paranoid, Mulder?
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Feb 21, 2024 07:20
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Madkal posted:The electronic intifadah (and I can't believe I am saying this) is one of those sources that has been disproven a few times already. The electronic intifadah (and I can't believe I'm saying this) are quoting an Israeli news site, and even link to the article in question, which you would know if you bothered to actually read the snippet i literally just quoted. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 21, 2024 07:30
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McCloud posted:The electronic intifadah (and I can't believe I'm saying this) are quoting an Israeli news site, and even link to the article in question, which you would know if you bothered to actually read the snippet i literally just quoted. The problem is that there's literally no numbers even proposed by those claiming that the IDF intentionally killed Israeli civilians. The two sources listed for the article is a lady whose report can, at most, account for less than a tenth of the slain if 100% of the deaths were due to IDF, and a guy who wasn't even at the kibbutz when it happened. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 21, 2024 09:26
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Main Paineframe posted:That's just semantics. Ultimately, I choose "ignoring" because it's not like US policy toward Israel changed* after Israel started bombing Gaza. Biden continued the USA's decades-long policy of "continue to send military aid to Israel no matter what happens", regardless of what Israel may or may not be doing to Palestinians at any given moment. Thus the word "ignoring". It's not like they sent the aid because Israel was bombing Gaza, but it's not like they stopped aid because Israel was bombing Gaza either. Israel's attitude or actions toward Gaza just aren't really a consideration in US actions, at all - no matter what Israel does, the US ignores it and continues to shovel the aid over. Responded to this in the I/P thread per mod request
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Feb 21, 2024 14:35
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Some people dug up a public appearance from one of the people writing Trump's policy platform for 2024 and that "Christian Nationalism" document. Last year, she said they need to "restore consequentiality to sex" by banning abortion and birth control to make women think twice about having casual sex. She also says that the only way to stop casual sex and return sex to its "true purpose" is to "restore the danger to sex for women." It is still kind of mind-blowing that Donald Trump is the vessel that these type of people have latched on to and that Trump is pushing policies that are the literal opposite of how he lives his own life. https://twitter.com/Heritage/status/1662534135762624520
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Feb 21, 2024 15:24
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I mean that's the Faustian bargain they're making and I think they're aware of it. They know that Trump is a venal, evil man but he will push whatever agenda they tell him to and that's the price they are willing to pay. That was the bargain they made in 2016 and it resulted in the biggest win in history for movement Christianity.
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Feb 21, 2024 15:26
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:
Just saying the quiet part out loud now. Not that there was ever any doubt that the anti-choice people were always lying about why they wanted to ban abortion.
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Feb 21, 2024 15:31
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Gnumonic posted:Some questions for discussion: This is for your first and third point. If you believe US civilians should do everything in our power to stop A genocide, do you advocate for breaking laws in order to achieve this end? Or is the moral obligation to intervene watered down with enough degrees of separation of responsibility (No US civilian has pressed a button to launch an Israeli missile for example), that only "acceptable", non-disruptive/non-violent protests are allowed? What should a civilian's limit to taking action be? If its left up to each individual, does this lead towards advocating for vigilantism? For your second point, I think the consequences will very much disappoint you. Germany is doing fine. Japan isn't suffering for what it did in ww2 either. Everyone still buys Chinese products even though the Uyghurs are being genocided. America's origination is soaked in the blood of the people it genocided to get here, where were the consequences for that? I hate to say it, but there will not be meaningful consequences for those in power, nor for the country as a whole, based on the decisions made for/against Palestine. (Edited to clarify US citizens) Dull Fork fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Feb 21, 2024 |
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Feb 21, 2024 15:33
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:
They all live their lives like that. Donald Trump is just a more honest hypocrite than most of them.
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Feb 21, 2024 15:35
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Some people dug up a public appearance from one of the people writing Trump's policy platform for 2024 and that "Christian Nationalism" document. they view trump as a imperfect vessel to accomplish their bullshit. yeah some genuinly think he is the second comming but a alot of them are more pragmatic, also the culture conservative poo poo is kinda factional too. alot are bartstool consetvatives who just want to be raunchy assholes at best and weird psycho kiwifarms types at worst. alot of them are happy just bitching about various gamergate/comic gate poo poo aka talking thumbs crying over pronouns in starfield. but alot are also the nutjobs like here. recently your seeing a falling out between both of those sides. i think if trump loses(or even if he wins) you will see fractures between the two factions. https://www.vox.com/politics/2024/1/10/24024341/calendargate-conservative-civil-war here is a recent flair up between them. the barstool types dont like the trad nuts for obvious reasons and mostly just were mad because "hurr politics in media" and or felt "the libs were humorless killjoys" and alot of them are feeling the same about the trads. mind you their is alot of crossover between groups and poo poo and all of they are some level of gross hypocrite. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Feb 21, 2024 |
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Feb 21, 2024 15:36
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People who signed up for the new Biden IDR student loan plan (now called the SAVE plan) and had previous federal loans that they converted to the new SAVE plan that would have met the requirements for forgiveness are now having the forgiveness trigger automatically instead of having to wait 10 years as if it were a new loan. Biden plans to make the announcement official at a public press conference in California later today. The Department of Education says it will be contacting borrowers who have not yet enrolled in the SAVE program who would qualify for forgiveness if they switched and encourage them to switch. To qualify for total forgiveness under the SAVE plan you have to meet one of the following criteria: - Had an original loan balance less of less than $12,000 and been paying it for 10 years. - For every $1,000 borrowed above $12,000, you have to make payments for an additional year. - It caps at 20 years and any loan that has existed for more than 20 years will get forgiven. - $0 payments because of the new income rules count towards the total. Currently, about 57% of people enrolled in the SAVE plan qualify for $0 monthly payments. https://twitter.com/politico/status/1760305153817596278 quote:Biden will email 153,000 student loan borrowers: I’m canceling your debt
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Feb 21, 2024 15:39
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