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No questions, yet, but I did it. Fedora Sericea is installed. Helldivers 2 appears to work fine, though I only tried it long enough to walk around my ship. Still need to learn all the keyboard shortcuts and get all my dev software working. It looks like I may miss out on using the official and optional software for my fans, water pump, audio interface, and gpu. Depends on if I can get them working via Proton/WINE or find some alternative software to do the same thing.
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Feb 25, 2024 06:50
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Dev software is very well supported on Linux (unless it's maybe Microsoft based, but even then C# has rider) Motherboards can set fan curves no problem. GPUs can be tweaked but you're getting into tricky territory now. Flashing the bios (if you have 2) ive found to be most reliable if I wanted tinder clocks/voltages. But these days I just don't bother and leave it stock.
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Feb 25, 2024 08:44
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I do appreciate the advice! However, it’s more about managing rgb for the fans water blocks, and memory and enabling features like Advanced Sync for the gpu. I plan on leaving the other settings at stock for the gpu and cpu (and the cpu is easy enough to control via bios). A friend already recommended CoreCtrl and Cooler Control for some software to look at that can give greater control than bios for some things. Haven’t looked at them, yet. I have a good bit of experience with Debian, Ubuntu, and Manjaro and am familiar with the dev tools available on Linux. However, Sericea is an atomic OS and it prefers I install things via containers and specifically recommends something called Toolbox. I found their documentation for it, just have to read and understand it. This distro just does things differently than I am used to because of things like that.
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Feb 25, 2024 12:52
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I think hardware-control apps via Wine is a lost cause. Wine does the APIs, but it doesn't provide direct access to hardware in the windows way. For set-and-forget stuff you can use the official apps in a windows VM and pass the hardware through. So that can work for a mouse with onboard profiles or RGB stuff that remembers how you set it. Bit of a puzzle how to pass a mobo-integrated RGB controller in though. For dynamic control, it's linux alternatives or nothing. OpenRGB is on flathub. FanControl isn't -- their github bugs say "it isn't possible" to make a flatpak. (It seems a lot more like "this would be annoying and I'm not interested".)
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Feb 25, 2024 14:47
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Klyith posted:I think hardware-control apps via Wine is a lost cause. Wine does the APIs, but it doesn't provide direct access to hardware in the windows way. Ooh, all I need is a set-and-forget for everything except specific GPU feature settings and RAM RGB so the Windows VM idea seems great! I'll work on that later. Also, kanshi is really neat! Figured out how to get my monitors stacked vertically and set my refresh rate to what it should be. Sadly, my gaming monitor is not FreeSync compatible and I have an AMD card so I won't be able to take advantage of VRR so that option will have to remain disabled. 
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Feb 25, 2024 15:07
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There does not appear to be an easy way to set the system theme to dark mode for Sericea (or should I be looking for Wayland or Sway instructions?). Really struggling with finding the answer to this one the last few minutes. Don’t want to have to set every app to dark mode individually when they can detect the system theme.
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Feb 25, 2024 15:36
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Kibner posted:There does not appear to be an easy way to set the system theme to dark mode for Sericea (or should I be looking for Wayland or Sway instructions?). Really struggling with finding the answer to this one the last few minutes. Don’t want to have to set every app to dark mode individually when they can detect the system theme. You should be looking for Sway instructions. (Where the answer is apparently that Sway *also* doesn't have a universal way to do that since it's just a WM and not a full desktop environment. So what you need to do is install gsettings to set your GTK theme to dark, which should be picked up by most software.)
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Feb 25, 2024 15:49
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Klyith posted:I think hardware-control apps via Wine is a lost cause. Wine does the APIs, but it doesn't provide direct access to hardware in the windows way. If you're lucky, the MB-provided controller is also just an USB device - but it may be some I2C/SPI shenanigans on a bus with things you do not want to forward, who knows. 
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Feb 25, 2024 16:23
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Klyith posted:(It seems a lot more like "this would be annoying and I'm not interested".) I looked once on how to make flatpacks. This was my opinion too after 5 minutes of skimming over the documentation. Now at least I know that I wouldn't do it unless someone was paying me.
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Feb 25, 2024 17:01
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FunkyAl posted:It is telling me: timeout waiting for snap system profiles to get updated. That's probably out of everybody's depth, OP. I don't think anybody has bothered to really spend time figuring out how the hell snap works, probably in no small part due to Canonical's absolutely abysmal track record with "we know you've heard of this really popular thing, but have you considered the Canonical one, which works almost as well and nobody understands? And also aubergine?" Frickin' snap  e: actually I am genuinely curious if anyone ITT doesn't expect snap to go away in 2-5 years, and be replaced with Flatpak cruft fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Feb 26, 2024 |
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Feb 26, 2024 00:07
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Klyith posted:You should be looking for Sway instructions. Thanks for this tip! I was able to get it to work! gsettings was already installed, thankfully. code:
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Feb 26, 2024 03:11
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cruft posted:e: actually I am genuinely curious if anyone ITT doesn't expect snap to go away in 2-5 years, and be replaced with Flatpak A while ago I saw someone saying that snap does have advantages, particularly for service & terminal type things. Whereas flatpak is very focused on GUI / desktop apps and sucks for that. So if you're juggling cloud VM instances snap is very useful. Canonical cares more about cloud than desktop these days, and their container format is better for that purpose. So I don't think it's going away. The more likely possibility IMO is that Ubuntu Desktop goes away, or gets delegated to community volunteer-only production. But here's my question on the subject: in 2-5 years, do you expect the immutable flatpak-only distros to take over the desktop space entirely? Make the container stuff so easy / transparent that people will actually recommend them to newbies? Or will immutable distros stay on the other side of the "building is fun, polish is pain" hump where they work well enough for experts to use, but have a lot of caveats for anyone else? "Oh to play a steam game while using gamescope and OBS you need to set your flatseal permissions to flarble warble babba booey, unless the moon is waxing in which case..."
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Feb 26, 2024 03:37
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I hope immutable distros stop being recommended to new people. But they won't go anywhere, they have too much value in the appliance space and in the IT management space where you need to maintain a million PCs that basically function as an appliance (in the sense that there's a limited and known set of applications that need to be running on there in a known environment). They have no value in the personal computer space though, and it's a bold lie the marketing is telling people right now. But nobody cares, because they know where the money is and that's what they're chasing (appliance, big corps, call centers, etc.). I just find it sad that they're selling it also to a group of people they have no intention in supporting in the near future.
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Feb 26, 2024 06:51
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I daily drive an immutable distro on my pc and it works great though?
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Feb 26, 2024 08:06
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The main value of an immutable distro for me was to be able to run bleeding-edge kernels and packages to support my then-brand-new hardware, for months, while doing zero troubleshooting besides "oh something doesn't work, I'll rollback and delay updates for a week". If I didn't need that, yeah, I would probably have been fine with stable Fedora and rpm packages instead of flatpaks and containers. Though as a developer, I suspect my PATH and home folder would have ended up an absolute mess from all the toolchains.
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Feb 26, 2024 09:44
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Immutable is great for seniors whose Macbooks broke or some poo poo. They don't want a system built of a thousand objects that each have their own tracking and updates; they want an image of a system and runtimes in it's totality that they can layer applications upon.
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Feb 26, 2024 09:53
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I don't think I'd use an immutable personally but I can see the value of them, especially if it's a system as stripped down and basic as Chrome OS. That's the linux you can give to your techphobic grandma and she'll still be able to get into her emails and go online, and you won't need to worry about janitoring it for them.
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Feb 26, 2024 10:02
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NihilCredo posted:The main value of an immutable distro for me was to be able to run bleeding-edge kernels and packages to support my then-brand-new hardware, for months, while doing zero troubleshooting besides "oh something doesn't work, I'll rollback and delay updates for a week". Uh, but this is not a thing that requires an immutable distro at all? Basic fedora, suse, etc can do rollbacks these days when set up in their default configs. Though I guess an immutable distro would be even better at doing rollbacks than a standard one -- the user apps are all isolated and you have fewer potential problems from config files being a version ahead after the rollback.
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Feb 26, 2024 14:25
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Volguus posted:They have no value in the personal computer space though, and it's a bold lie the marketing is telling people right now. But nobody cares, because they know where the money is and that's what they're chasing (appliance, big corps, call centers, etc.). I just find it sad that they're selling it also to a group of people they have no intention in supporting in the near future. What determines “value in the personal computer space” for you? I’m curious as a newcomer to Linux as a personal os.
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Feb 26, 2024 14:31
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keep punching joe posted:I don't think I'd use an immutable personally but I can see the value of them, especially if it's a system as stripped down and basic as Chrome OS. That's the linux you can give to your techphobic grandma and she'll still be able to get into her emails and go online, and you won't need to worry about janitoring it for them. And that's exactly the appliance computer. It's even more beneficial when you have to manage a million of those, but one will do. But recommend it to a new user that has to install it and configure it themselves? Therefore, presumably a bit more advanced than grandma? And for what? So that they can rollback on a broken update, even though dnf and apt (not sure about others) have a perfectly serviceable rollback mechanism too?
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Feb 26, 2024 14:34
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Sleng Teng posted:What determines “value in the personal computer space” for you? I’m curious as a newcomer to Linux as a personal os. The ownership of the computer, the OS. The ability to do anything you want, without (or with as few) layers between you and the metal. The ability and freedom to modify the OS. You don't want that? Get a chrome book. Get a gaming console. Get windows. Why even run linux? What's the point of it all? Linux has won in pretty much every segment except the personal computer. Linux on the desktop is no more, since there are fewer and fewer desktops and there's no dethroning of windows in that space. And windows is moving too towards that controlling OS.
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Feb 26, 2024 14:46
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cruft posted:I'm just about to the point where I'm going to tell people that NVidia cards are not compatible with Linux. Not "compatible asterisk", just straight up incompatible. if you're on latest kernel and mesa, new open source nvidia stuff is making huge strides towards being good so it's likely too change soon but also, latest kernel/mesa is unstable distro territory, so definitely do not recommend that poo poo to people for another year or 2 either lol
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Feb 26, 2024 14:51
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I’m looking forward to learning about the Toolbox containerized environments in Sericea. They appear to be a great way to avoid conflicts between various dev tools while still giving you access to your home directory and host devices.
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Feb 26, 2024 15:09
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Volguus posted:And that's exactly the appliance computer. It's even more beneficial when you have to manage a million of those, but one will do. But recommend it to a new user that has to install it and configure it themselves? Therefore, presumably a bit more advanced than grandma? And for what? So that they can rollback on a broken update, even though dnf and apt (not sure about others) have a perfectly serviceable rollback mechanism too? Do you find the typical user has a need to muck around outside /home or /etc. Because at least in OSTree, those are still mutable.
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Feb 26, 2024 15:19
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cruft posted:e: actually I am genuinely curious if anyone ITT doesn't expect snap to go away in 2-5 years, and be replaced with Flatpak Klyith posted:Canonical cares more about cloud than desktop these days, and their container format is better for that purpose. So I don't think it's going away. The more likely possibility IMO is that Ubuntu Desktop goes away, or gets delegated to community volunteer-only production.
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Feb 26, 2024 18:09
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Nitrousoxide posted:Do you find the typical user has a need to muck around outside /home or /etc. Because at least in OSTree, those are still mutable. It's not mucking around in /, it's that flatpak & toolboxed apps are not always 100% transparent and occasionally have big problems. I don't know how much it happens in practice, I've avoided flatpak. But that was a conscious decision to avoid flatpak, because I saw just enough people having issues. I didn't want to try learning general linux and flatpak management at the same time. (Steam was the thing I wanted to duck -- there are some games that seem much less compatible inside the container.)
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Feb 26, 2024 18:10
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The only issues I have ever faced with flatpak apps are not respecting the system theme, or the vs code flatpak just being sort of hobbled because I couldn't be arsed taking the time to set the permissions correctly. On the whole they are pretty good though.
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Feb 26, 2024 18:25
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Klyith posted:Canonical cares more about cloud than desktop these days, and their container format is better for that purpose. So I don't think it's going away. The more likely possibility IMO is that Ubuntu Desktop goes away, or gets delegated to community volunteer-only production. Canonical tried this what, 7 years ago? And the community backlash was so intense they backed down. I have seen no real uptick in Ubuntu being used as a server OS, and ime it is still mentally in the desktop category like Fedora. If Canonical wants a server OS, they are gonna have to rebrand away from Ubuntu.
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Feb 26, 2024 18:26
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Where is NBSD when we need them to rant about how Ubuntu is the devil
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Feb 26, 2024 18:26
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ExcessBLarg! posted:The thing about snaps is that it's not just the container format. Snaps are built on Ubuntu Core, like how (most?) flatpaks are build on Fedora OSTree. So while users can totally install Ubuntu Desktop, junk snaps, and install flatpaks instead, it's a little weird since much of the desktop functionality is really built off Fedora and not Ubuntu. In that case you might as well just go full Fedora with Silverblue or something. Which makes this, honestly, the most likely reality: On the server it feels like OCI containers won. You can argue about docker vs podman vs k8s vs any number of lighter-weight solutions, but is snap really beign used in that space? Why?!
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Feb 26, 2024 18:26
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Nitrousoxide posted:Do you find the typical user has a need to muck around outside /home or /etc. Because at least in OSTree, those are still mutable. Do you find that the typical user needs to use Linux? If one never needs to do anything on their computer they have chromeos or steam deck. Hell, maybe a typical user doesn't even need a computer outside whatever work provides. They have their phone for the rest. I guess, in the end, is a matter of philosophy . What you read as "you cannot break your system" I read as "I'm not allowed to ...". At which point, what am I doing here? When I could be spending my time using software made specifically for whatever my needs are.
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Feb 26, 2024 18:41
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Volguus posted:Do you find that the typical user needs to use Linux? The single biggest sell point for linux desktops ime is all the exposed levers so people can customize the poo poo out of their environment. My desktop has a bunch of neat effects and I can't do that on a locked down system. loving love plasma
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Feb 26, 2024 19:05
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RFC2324 posted:The single biggest sell point for linux desktops ime is all the exposed levers so people can customize the poo poo out of their environment. My desktop has a bunch of neat effects and I can't do that on a locked down system. Probably because they're so used to seeing ads everywhere, that they've trained themselves to not notice them, without it being a conscious effort. I'd like to find the paper I remember reading, which showed that (at least among younger people), there are portions of a website they intentionally avoid looking at, because that's where ads are placed - I don't imagine there's anything about that that you can't learn if you aren't young, just that the study happened to be on a bunch of university students. EDIT: Also, I just realized I described people in university as young... 
BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Feb 26, 2024 |
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Feb 26, 2024 19:28
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Volguus posted:Do you find that the typical user needs to use Linux? Can you give a couple of examples of these things that you feel unable to do in OSTree distros? 'Cause you may find that the answer is less "I'm not allowed to..." and more "There is a different way to do this". E.g. putting system files into a RPM in order to install them as a well-defined operation, rather than doing untracked changes to /usr that you'll have completely forgotten about two months from now.
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Feb 26, 2024 19:29
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:That's mostly still limited to something powerusers do - in my experience, most people don't know or care that they can remove the ads that Microsoft include in Windows. They are young! <23 is young. But I had the same thought reading this thread, "Kids (<23 year olds) probably don't really want desktops anymore, that is true."
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Feb 26, 2024 19:51
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RFC2324 posted:The single biggest sell point for linux desktops ime is all the exposed levers so people can customize the poo poo out of their environment. My desktop has a bunch of neat effects and I can't do that on a locked down system. TBF I'd think that's a thing that would work fine on an immutable distro -- normally plasma widgets install to your home directory, not the system. Speaking of which apparently plasma 5 widgets require updates to work on plasma 6. Sucks to be me, I have 2 widgets that I edited myself to customize a bit, and I'm gonna have to not only get new versions but also dive back into Qt code to redo how I changed 'em.
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Feb 26, 2024 20:35
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ziasquinn posted:They are young! <23 is young. I don't think kids ever wanted desktops, or even computers. They used them because they were an effective tool for accomplishing what they did want, which was communicating with their friends, or getting jobs, or whatever. But these smartphones seem to be providing what people want, in a more convenient way than desktop computers. Maybe one day they can give up the smartphone for some other, better thing that's even less intrusive and more convenient in terms of letting them communicate with friends or get jobs.
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Feb 26, 2024 20:49
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Does a transactional desktop even protect you from screwing up your DM? Everything that happens after sddm is started is configured from your /home. So, if I install a plasma applet that crashes my computer when I login, then transactional rollback won't save me. Right? Thought of that because I spent the weekend reinstalling my system. I switched to tumbleweed, because I had planned to do that anyways once kde6 becomes stable. Kelpie sounded too experimental, and I don't like gnome. What triggered that, is that I hosed my X on my manjaro system. Had a black screen with cursor. So i deactivated autologin and saw sddm started right, and I decided that the problem was in my user configs. Tried on weyland, didn't help. Tried a different DM, didn't help. Made a new test user, didn't help. I had switched to a nvidia card a few days before, cannibalized from my old windows gaming box. So I dug out my old amd card and put it in. Also didn't help. Then i gave up and just installed a new system.
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Feb 26, 2024 20:59
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VictualSquid posted:Does a transactional desktop even protect you from screwing up your DM? Everything that happens after sddm is started is configured from your /home. So, if I install a plasma applet that crashes my computer when I login, then transactional rollback won't save me. Right? I'd imagine there is a way to login via the shell without the window manager ever loading, which would let you then delete or fix the offending config files.
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Feb 26, 2024 21:10
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You can absolutely make a user unbootable under an immutable system, but the system should remain bootable. Plus, this is another reason why setting up good btrfs snapshots which you can roll back from in the grub menu is important.
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Feb 26, 2024 21:16
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