|
One does not simply walk into the Forbidden Zone...
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2024 18:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 00:18 |
|
|
What did the various peoples of Middle Earth know about Durin's Bane? Was it known to be a balrog? When discussing whether or not to head through Moria, Boromir, Aragorn, and Legolas all agree it is a dangerous place, and there certainly seems to be a subtext that they fear there's something worse than orcs down there. When Gandalf first encounters the balrog through the door and the spell/counterspell thing, he doesn't know what it is, just that it is strong and has something to do with fire. When the entire fellowship sees the balrog, Legolas recognizes it on sight, Gandalf is like "ah, that explains some things" and Gimli just laments "Durin's Bane" and drops his axe. Was Gimli thinking "There's the famous balrog that drove the dwarves out of Khazad Dum, the bastard Durin's Bane" or "Ah, a huge flaming monster, that is probably what Durin's Bane was"? Gandalf knows there's something called Durin's Bane, he discusses it before they go into the mountain, but he didn't know that it was a balrog? He had to know he was dealing with something that was at least a Maiar after the door incident, but he never put two and two together? Did Gandalf not know who or what Durin's Bane was?
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2024 19:23
|
|
|
I figured "Durin's Bane" was either a generic term to describe the mysterious disaster that caused the fall of Moria, or something Gimli made up on the spot. I don't think they even suspected it was caused by a specific individual monster. They agree it's a dangerous place because there was a thriving community there that suddenly disappeared, and because it's right in the middle of a mountain range crawling with orcs and other creatures. Doubt any of them expected something that bad was down there, though both Legolas and Gandalf recognize it when they run into it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2024 19:30
|
|
|
I skimmed the text before I asked the question in case I was forgetting something, and Gandalf definitely refers to Durin's Bane before they encounter it e: Gloin at the council of Elrond implies no one knows what it is quote:Too deep we delved there, and woke the nameless fear. Long have its vast mansions lain empty since the children of Durin fled. But now we spoke of it again with longing, and yet with dread; for no dwarf has dared to pass the doors of Khazad-dűm for many lives of kings, save Thror only. So no one who lived saw the thing? Or dwarves don't know about balrogs? zoux fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Feb 26, 2024 |
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2024 19:31
|
|
|
zoux posted:I skimmed the text before I asked the question in case I was forgetting something, and Gandalf definitely refers to Durin's Bane before they encounter it Dáin saw it after the battle of Azanulbizar.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2024 19:58
|
|
|
Eh, I think he was being metaphorical, I don't think a balrog was peekin out of the gates during the battle. Though I guess I look out of the window if someone is out there being rowdy and disturbing my rest.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2024 20:01
|
|
|
‘Bane’ just seems to be used as shorthand for ‘cause of misfortune/ruin/death’ in the books. See Snowmane’s barrow epitaph after the battle in front of the gates of Minas Tirith:quote:Faithful servant yet master’s bane, So it seems like they’re using ‘Durin’s Bane’ as shorthand for ‘whatever wrecked Durin’s poo poo.’
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2024 20:02
|
|
|
Appendix A posted:Yet hardy and full of wrath as [Dain] was, it is said that when he came down from the Gate he looked grey in the face, as one who has felt great fear... It seems pretty metaphorical to me, I suppose. Now that I read it again it sounds a lot like Glorfindel and the Witch-King.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2024 20:06
|
|
|
Whatever they think it is, it's worse than a dragon. There are a limited number of things worse than dragons, so if indeed they didn't know what the Bane was, I wonder what they thought it was.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2024 20:09
|
|
|
You’d have to imagine not too many dwarves both saw the balrog and lived to tell about it. Especially to outsiders. And even if they did, that was over 1000 years before LOTR. Dwarves live a long time but not that long.zoux posted:Whatever they think it is, it's worse than a dragon. There are a limited number of things worse than dragons, so if indeed they didn't know what the Bane was, I wonder what they thought it was. Doesnt need to be any more specific than “some hosed up thing that came out of the bottom of the mountains” (which is not wrong). The lower reaches of Moria are apparently lousy with these things, and they’ve already got a tentacle monster outside the western gate.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2024 20:13
|
|
|
Even if Dain did indeed see it at the battle, all he might know is “I some some spooky flames in the shadows”, which isn’t enough for anyone to really know. Even Gandalf only has suspicions before he literally sees it himself.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2024 21:25
|
|
|
galagazombie posted:Even if Dain did indeed see it at the battle, all he might know is “I some some spooky flames in the shadows”, which isn’t enough for anyone to really know. Even Gandalf only has suspicions before he literally sees it himself. he could have seen the wings
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2024 22:06
|
|
|
I know that the popular conception of what a balrog looks like was driven by that one calendar image, and perpetuated by the movies (It is a great loving design) but I also wonder how much the lifting fact that "balrog" sounds like a hideous monster is doing.  I've seen this referenced as a (more) book accurate depiction of a balrog. It also looks cool, but I don't think it has a patch over the winged, demonic balrog Anyway, PYF balrogs 
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2024 22:25
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2024 22:28
|
|
|
Ah, the famous scene of "you shall not pass,'" remarked Gandalf casually.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2024 22:33
|
|
|
He didn't say "FLAME OF UDUN" he said "whoa, where's the fire buddy"
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2024 22:35
|
|
|
I rather like this one by Joe Hickman, which leans heavily into the man-shape. Very "angel of fire".
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2024 22:43
|
|
|
zoux posted:I know that the popular conception of what a balrog looks like was driven by that one calendar image, and perpetuated by the movies (It is a great loving design) but I also wonder how much the lifting fact that "balrog" sounds like a hideous monster is doing. This one is cool, especially if it kinda floated around like one of the bodies in Control or Death Stranding or something. Go for uncanny rather than sheer hulking physical menace
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2024 22:46
|
|
  
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2024 22:54
|
|
|
These artists are all right that demons look cooler with wings, but Tolkien is also right that it's cool for demons to be killed by plunging them to their death down a long fall truly, a conundrum
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2024 23:00
|
|
|
zoux posted:I know that the popular conception of what a balrog looks like was driven by that one calendar image, and perpetuated by the movies (It is a great loving design) but I also wonder how much the lifting fact that "balrog" sounds like a hideous monster is doing. Love Durin's Bane doing the "come at me bro" pose like dudes will do before a fight in the bar parking lot
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2024 23:03
|
|
|
Albatrosses have huge wings too but if you drop one off a bridge it ain’t flying off
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2024 23:04
|
|
|
... is that a comic adaptation of the Bakshi version?
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2024 23:06
|
|
|
Arc Hammer posted:Man Fangorn's march on Isengard really is Macbeth isn't it. Could you elaborate on this? Sounds interesting. zoux posted:Albatrosses have huge wings too but if you drop one off a bridge it ain’t flying off More evidence for the balrog = quetzalcoatlas theory e: turns out my phone autocorrect recognises "Quetzalcoatl" but no other member of the Aztec pantheon? Tree Bucket fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Feb 27, 2024 |
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2024 23:07
|
|
|
Tree Bucket posted:Could you elaborate on this? Sounds interesting. MACBETH: "Bring me no more reports; let them fly all, Till Birnam wood remove to Dunsinane" At the end of Macbeth the forest of Birnam Wood comes to Dunsinane where Macbeth's castle is located and he is surrounded by Malcolm and MacDuff. It can be interpreted many ways, either as the trees literally coming to the hill at Dunsinane as some divine portent of Macbeth's impending doom or in a more metaphorical sense (like Malcolm's army using woodland brush to camouflage their approach against the castle). It's karmic punishment in tree form. The Ents take it more literally than most.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2024 23:12
|
|
|
I know it's not the point, I know that the designs of the wicked include the seeds of their own destruction, but looking back on it, the whole rings of power plan was a real gently caress up on the part of Sauron. Setting aside the fact that he was killed into permanent irrelevancy with the unmaking of the One Ring, I can't really see how anything worked out in his favor. He thought he'd gain dominion over three powerful elf-lords, seven dwarven kingdoms, and nine kingdoms of men. Instead he got zero elves, and the next time he saw those rings they were on the fingers of two S-tier elves and a loving Maia who used them to drive him out of Dol Goldur, and indeed had used the power of the rings to sustain themselves in middle earth long enough to have the chance to oppose him. He got no dwarves; did he just call that one wrong or what? You can say he got the Nazgul, but was that even what he was after? Seems to me like they'd be a lot more useful as immortal kings and sorcerers at the heads of legions of mannish armies instead of a spooky SEAL team 6. He probably coulda cooked up a bunch of ring wraiths with a lot less of his personal power bound up in a master ring. Was he more powerful with the ring than he was before its crafting? Or was spending so much of his personal essence the price he had to pay in order to craft a ring powerful enough to dominate the wills of the people he thought he'd be binding? Seriously the fact that the elf lords just took off the rings is hilarious, I'd love to be in Sauron's evil workshop for that one. "haha now to control the minds of three of the most potent beings in all middle earth" *Elves immediately take off rings* "Ah. I see. Well..." e: well I guess the three rings weren't part of the original plan but still zoux fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Feb 27, 2024 |
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2024 16:25
|
|
|
The Nazgűl were immortal kings loving poo poo up That was what the Witch king of Angmar was for a long time We also don’t know much at all about the south and East where suaron spent a lot of attention
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2024 18:14
|
|
|
It's explained that the rings just had a weird effect on dwarves: they got greedy and gold obsessed and good at drawing wealth to themselves, but they just didn't turn into wraiths like everybody else, version compatibility error sorry
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2024 18:24
|
|
|
zoux posted:Seriously the fact that the elf lords just took off the rings is hilarious, I'd love to be in Sauron's evil workshop for that one. "haha now to control the minds of three of the most potent beings in all middle earth" *Elves immediately take off rings* "Ah. I see. Well..." Hahahahahahahaha How The gently caress Is Ring Domination Real Hahahaha Noldor Just Walk Away From The Ring Like Elflord Take It Off Haha
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2024 18:32
|
|
|
euphronius posted:We also don’t know much at all about the south and East where suaron spent a lot of attention We know his efforts there availed him not. Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's explained that the rings just had a weird effect on dwarves: they got greedy and gold obsessed and good at drawing wealth to themselves, but they just didn't turn into wraiths like everybody else, version compatibility error sorry Yeah I know, and he also thought that he'd be able to take dominion over Eriador because Celebrimbor went and made three other rings but because they didn't have his....taint on them it didn't work. Sounds like this mf didn't know as much about ringlore as he let on.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2024 18:33
|
|
|
zoux posted:We know his efforts there availed him not. What are you referring to
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2024 18:34
|
|
|
The fact that whatever he did down there didn't stop a hobbit from yeeting his ring into the cracks of doom e: were the Nine ringwraiths by the time of the Last Alliance
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2024 18:35
|
|
|
Frodo did not yeet the ring into the cracks of doom. He did the opposite
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2024 18:37
|
|
|
What would have happened to Sauron after the War of the Last Alliance if he *didn't* have the Ring? Would he have been unable to re-materialize on Middle Earth and had to go back to Valinor and face punishment? It was my understanding the Ring acted kind of like a Horcrux and allowed him to keep getting more and more shots at taking control of Middle-Earth. So, in that way, it helped him. And yeah, you're not wrong that his plan really didn't work out for the Elves or Dwarves - though the Seven at least took many of the Dwarves out of the picture, so it kind of half worked (in watering down resistance to him), and the Nine aren't nothing to sneeze at : he had a whole evil kingdom of Angmar at his beck and call and re: what euphronius mentioned... is it possible that some of the Nine came from the East and South? The loyalty of the Easterlings and Haradrim may have been tied to the influence of the Nine.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2024 18:43
|
|
|
Gandalf says at some point Sauron would never expect anyone to destroy the ring. Assuming Gandalf was right, Sauron was correct. No one on middle earth has the ability to destroy the Ring. Eru had to literally intervene which is I think cheating against poor Sauron.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2024 18:49
|
|
|
Sauron was probably just fine with the dwarf-rings intensifying hoarding behavior. Dwarf hoards tend to cause trouble with elves and men (see The Hobbit and also the ruin of Doriath) and the belief that dwarf fortunes are founded on rings gives him a decent bargaining tool when dealing with dwarves. Is it as cool as if you had seven dwarf minions? No but it’s not like he intended to have seven dwarf minions in the first place, all the rings he helped make were originally intended for elves. When it comes to nefarious magic artifacts you take what you can get. zoux posted:e: were the Nine ringwraiths by the time of the Last Alliance Yes. Nazgul-led attacks on Numenorean colonial possessions apparently formed the background to Pharazon’s conquest of Sauron. Mike N Eich posted:is it possible that some of the Nine came from the East and South? The loyalty of the Easterlings and Haradrim may have been tied to the influence of the Nine. Yes, highly likely. The Akallabeth says that three of the nine were of Numenorean ancestry. So six weren’t.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2024 18:58
|
|
|
euphronius posted:Gandalf says at some point Sauron would never expect anyone to destroy the ring. Assuming Gandalf was right, Sauron was correct. No one on middle earth has the ability to destroy the Ring. Eru had to literally intervene which is I think cheating against poor Sauron. I feel sorry for Saruman. He made a genuine effort for a long time to try and defeat Sauron, but there literally was no way to do it. You can't destroy the Ring and you can't defeat him militarily. The only hope for Middle-earth was a miracle. Saruman made the intelligent, practical choice given the resources and information he possessed.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2024 19:01
|
|
|
Right the only hope was a miracle and Saruman knew the gods had probably abandoned him. Poor guy
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2024 19:03
|
|
|
zoux posted:The fact that whatever he did down there didn't stop a hobbit from yeeting his ring into the cracks of doom They first appear in the 2nd age before the drowning of Numenor. So probably yes by the last alliance. Maybe they all took 7 years of PTO for the siege of Barad Dur.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2024 19:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 00:18 |
|
|
"No living man can defeat me" isn't as much of a shield when you're fighting a host of men and elves as it is when you're picking on the near-corpse of Gondor.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2024 19:10
|
|
