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Kalit posted:Once again, Biden showing that things can be accomplished behind the scenes. So much for Biden's "hardline Zionist" stance that I had to argue against earlier ITT You can still be a hardline Zionist and support a ceasefire. Very few countries think Israel/a Jewish state has no right to exist, but most of them support a ceasefire.
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Feb 27, 2024 02:20
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:You can still be a hardline Zionist and support a ceasefire. Very few countries think Israel has no right to exist, but most of them support a ceasefire. Okay, maybe I’m confusing terminology in that case. I thought Zionism was not only advocating for Israel’s right to exist, but also for their advancement into Palestine territory (believing that it’s “Israel’s land”). Am I mistaken in that?
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Feb 27, 2024 02:25
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:You can still be a hardline Zionist and support a ceasefire. Very few countries think Israel/a Jewish state has no right to exist, but most of them support a ceasefire. I'm not sure how the second sentence relates to the first, as hardline Zionists are the opposite, they don't think Palestine should exist.
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Feb 27, 2024 02:27
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Kalit posted:Okay, maybe I’m confusing terminology in that case. I thought Zionism was not only advocating for Israel’s right to exist, but also for their advancement into Palestine territory (believing that it’s “Israel’s land”). Am I mistaken in that? It's the same as how "capitalist" technically describes both Denmark and Ron Paul. The literal definition of Zionism is supporting "the development and protection of the State of Israel as a Jewish state." There are expansionist Zionists who think Israel needs to encompass all of historical Judea and there are Zionists who think the 1967 or 1948 borders are acceptable as long as a Jewish state continues to exist.
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Feb 27, 2024 02:32
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Kchama posted:I'm not sure how the second sentence relates to the first, as hardline Zionists are the opposite, they don't think Palestine should exist. Secular and less "Zionist" groups like Yisrael Beiteinu were some of the groups who were most explicit in the belief that Palestine shouldn't exist. Yitzhak Rabin was much more of an orthodox Zionist (and he was the head military commander during the 6 day war) than Avigdor Lieberman and Rabin was trying to formalize a Palestinian state before he was assassinated. You also have the weirdly opposite groups of ultra-orthodox who don't think Palestine should exist, but also don't think modern Israel should exist because they believe that God is going to signal when Israel should be built and all of historical Judea and Palestine reclaimed, but man doing it too early is defying God's timeline. Just the term "Zionist" doesn't outline someone's specific ideology on Palestine. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Feb 27, 2024 |
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Feb 27, 2024 02:38
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Secular and less "Zionist" groups like Yisrael Beiteinu were some of the groups who were most explicit in the belief that Palestine shouldn't exist. quote:The party describes itself as "a national movement with the clear vision to follow in the bold path of Zev Jabotinsky",[19] the founder of Revisionist Zionism. I don't think your classification of Zionism is the standard classification of Zionism.
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Feb 27, 2024 02:57
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Kalit posted:Once again, Biden showing that things can be accomplished behind the scenes. So much for Biden's "hardline Zionist" stance that I had to argue against earlier ITT You argued against Biden being a Zionist? That’s a shame. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/i-am-zionist-how-joe-bidens-lifelong-bond-with-israel-shapes-war-policy-2023-10-21/ quote:When Joe Biden met with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his war cabinet during his visit to Israel, the U.S. president assured them: "I don't believe you have to be a Jew to be a Zionist, and I am a Zionist." Raenir Salazar posted:Ceasefire Joe has a pretty good ring to it. Yeah, no, not when he was supporting Israel vehemently throughout and repeated some of their horrible lies.
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Feb 27, 2024 02:57
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reignonyourparade posted:I don't think your classification of Zionism is the standard classification of Zionism. That is why I said "less Zionist" and not "non-Zionist." Why do you think Revisionist Zionism is called something different from orthodox or general Zionism?
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Feb 27, 2024 03:03
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:That is why I said "less Zionist" and not "non-Zionist." Because it wanted to distinguish itself from less extreme forms of Zionism that preached things like "coexisting with Palestinians" or "maybe settling for less than the entirety of Palestine". It was one of the most Zionist of the Zionist factions, a far-right Zionism that set itself in clear opposition to the socialist Zionism that was widespread in the early decades of the Zionist movement.
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Feb 27, 2024 03:08
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Main Paineframe posted:Because it wanted to distinguish itself from less extreme forms of Zionism that preached things like "coexisting with Palestinians" or "maybe settling for less than the entirety of Palestine". It was one of the most Zionist of the Zionist factions, a far-right Zionism that set itself in clear opposition to the socialist Zionism that was widespread in the early decades of the Zionist movement. Right. If you are explicitly in opposition to the original Zionist movement and opposed to 10 out of 11 different major intellectual forms of Zionism, then I think it is pretty fair to say that you are not an originalist or member of the traditional Zionist movement. It is even literally called "Revisionism." That is the whole point of the "Zionist means a lot of different things" derail. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Feb 27, 2024 |
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Feb 27, 2024 03:11
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Right. Sometimes you can be opposed to an original form of a movement not because you are a lesser version of it, but in fact because you think the original version doesn't go far enough.
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Feb 27, 2024 03:12
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reignonyourparade posted:Sometimes you can be opposed to an original form of a movement not because you are a lesser version of it, but in fact because you think the original version doesn't go far enough. Sure, but the original point is that there are anti-Zionists who think Palestine shouldn't exist and Zionists who think it should. Just using the word "Zionist" doesn't actually tell you someone's specific thoughts on Palestine any more than someone being a capitalist tells you their preference on tax policy. Denmark, Adam Smith, and Ron Paul are all capitalists, but they have extremely different opinions on taxes.
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Feb 27, 2024 03:15
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I have not heard of a single professed Zionist who doesn't support this war. All of the usual suspects have been in full throated support since this started.
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Feb 27, 2024 03:21
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FlamingLiberal posted:I have not heard of a single professed Zionist who doesn't support this war. All of the usual suspects have been in full throated support since this started. Just about every single major European country has supported Israel and also called for a ceasefire. The United States is also apparently supporting Israel and negotiating a ceasefire. Roughly 85% of Israelis consider themselves Zionists and about 60% support a ceasefire in exchange for returning hostages.
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Feb 27, 2024 03:24
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FlamingLiberal posted:I have not heard of a single professed Zionist who doesn't support this war. All of the usual suspects have been in full throated support since this started. There have been quite a few Israelis that have been critical of the war and I think most of them want the country of Israel to still exist. There is a difference between wanting the hostages returned and wanting Gaza to be leveled and there are some that want both but not everyone does, and lumping in those that want the hostages back with those that want annihilation isn't doing anyone any favours.
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Feb 27, 2024 03:25
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Biden announced that the U.S. has been secretly negotiating a ceasefire in Gaza and expects to announce a ceasefire agreement within a week. Uh, how is this a secret? These talks have been known for a while. Like, here's an article about Biden talking about it a couple weeks ago lol: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-israel-hamas-hostage-negotiations-rafah-king-abdullah/ And an article from a month ago!: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/24/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-hostages-ceasefire-talks.html
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Feb 27, 2024 03:27
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koolkal posted:Uh, how is this a secret? These talks have been known for a while. The "secret" part was that the U.S. was pressuring Israel to drop its demands that had prevented the negotiations from continuing and Israel finally accepting. But, yes, I should have been more clear that the secret part was the negotiations with Israel to move the red line in the ceasefire talks and not the hostage negotiations themselves. quote:In a major shift, Israeli negotiators have signaled that Israel could release a group of high-profile Palestinian prisoners serving lengthy jail terms in exchange for the freedom of some of the Israeli hostages still being held in Gaza, officials say.
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Feb 27, 2024 03:30
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NY legislature talking about ripping up the bipartisan district map and making one more favored for Dems. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/26/nyregion/redistricting-maps-ny-congress.html quote:Behind closed doors, Democrats were still haggling over a complex set of legal and political concerns that could determine how aggressive they would be. The choices included a dramatic redraw that would give Democrats an advantage in 22 of the state’s 26 districts; another option would only make slight alterations to a handful of swing seats. quote:Democrats in the Senate and Assembly also took steps on Monday to expedite legislation to prevent Republicans from “judge shopping” in redistricting cases. In 2022, Republicans brought their initial lawsuit in a rural county where a Republican judge heard the case.
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Feb 27, 2024 03:43
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The "secret" part was that the U.S. was pressuring Israel to drop its demands that had prevented the negotiations from continuing and Israel finally accepting. But, yes, I should have been more clear that the secret part was the negotiations with Israel to move the red line in the ceasefire talks and not the hostage negotiations themselves. Why should "secret" negotiations be seen as anything but convienant for the powers that be? Leveraging US influence to give us a win while we vetoe other attempts, to define and channel power. It's only "good" within the perspective of domestic US politics Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Israel stop exterminating people by the thousands with our support. Just wanna be clear eyed about it.
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Feb 27, 2024 03:53
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Bomb blew up outside the Alabama AG office. No one hurt https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/26/us/alabama-attorney-general-explosive.html
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Feb 27, 2024 04:01
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Charlz Guybon posted:Bomb blew up outside the Alabama AG office. No one hurt Countdown until the right accuses a trans person and it turns out to be a pro-lifer desperately trying to reclaim the narrative.
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Feb 27, 2024 04:04
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BRJurgis posted:Why should "secret" negotiations be seen as anything but convienant for the powers that be? There are a lot of reasons to keep negotiations on something secret, in particular because it limits the ability of third parties to sabotage those negotiations. It's "good" within the perspective of actually successfully accomplishing negotiations. It's convienant for the parties to the negotiations, and those who benefit from the outcomes- which in this case appears to be Palestinians.
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Feb 27, 2024 04:32
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GlyphGryph posted:Sure, of course, but I'm never going to accomplish anything if there are ever only single digits percentages of the population I can work with. Progress is always going to be mean working with people who are literal monsters unless you yourself are so monstrous that most of the population is better than you. I don't need to actually find someone tolerable to work with them towards shared goals. The sticky bits are usually the accommodating or else trying real hard not to look too close on their part of the common cause (as with KOSA and Stoller's tech antitrust efforts).
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Feb 27, 2024 04:53
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FlamingLiberal posted:I have not heard of a single professed Zionist who doesn't support this war. All of the usual suspects have been in full throated support since this started. I know of one, in that they technically still want there to be a jewish refuge state, but even then it's kind of a crude fit by now because they've stopped supporting any of the governmental acts of israel and are somewhat anti-israel by now The rest, on the other hand? Full support. Divided between "those who don't really believe yet that this is genocidal" versus "know it is genocidal, actively like that part of it."
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Feb 27, 2024 05:02
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:i can't articulate why, but this being mentioned as an aside while grabbing ice cream with a b tier late night talk show host doesn't seem appropriate I kind of feel the same, it seems like such a matter deserves more gravitas. My guess is he is genuinely shaken by Bushnell and wants to pre-empt any danger of copycats (or doesn't care much but doesn't want the political costs of emulators or other serious dissent), so when he saw an opportunity to get it out there he jumped on it while not thinking the circumstances are ready for an official briefing or the like.
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Feb 27, 2024 08:30
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Far more people are going to be watching an interview with Seth Myers than an offical breifing, and the last press coference was a shouty mess.
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Feb 27, 2024 13:54
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Ms Adequate posted:I kind of feel the same, it seems like such a matter deserves more gravitas. My guess is he is genuinely shaken by Bushnell and wants to pre-empt any danger of copycats (or doesn't care much but doesn't want the political costs of emulators or other serious dissent), so when he saw an opportunity to get it out there he jumped on it while not thinking the circumstances are ready for an official briefing or the like. My fear is that this is just Bibi setting up a rug-pull to make Biden look ineffectual. I can't understand why you would ever make such an announcement informally and prematurely.
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Feb 27, 2024 14:13
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This election cycle is likely to be a rematch from 2020. We might also be getting a second throwback from the last election cycle: Another recall vote in California. California requires that you give a reason for any recall campaign. In 2020, it was because of unconstitutional covid restrictions. This time, it is because there is a $73 billion budget shortfall that they blame on Newsom traveling across the country instead of being in Sacramento to negotiate a balanced budget for the state. https://twitter.com/RecallGavinNow/status/1762212771595464841 quote:[quote]Gavin Newsom faces another recall threat in California Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Feb 27, 2024 |
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Feb 27, 2024 15:37
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he doesn't have the look as Governor of the Homeless
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Feb 27, 2024 15:42
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:This election cycle is likely to be a rematch from 2020. How dare a politician do politics. This is going to die.
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Feb 27, 2024 15:51
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:My fear is that this is just Bibi setting up a rug-pull to make Biden look ineffectual. I can't understand why you would ever make such an announcement informally and prematurely. https://abcnews.go.com/International/live-updates/israel-gaza-hamas-war/?id=107535302 quote:A senior Israeli political source told ABC News on Tuesday that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was "surprised" by U.S. President Joe Biden's remarks that he was hopeful a cease-fire between Israel and Hamas could be in place "by next Monday." perhaps not an intentional rug pull but it absolutely does not sound like a done, or even close to done, deal
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Feb 27, 2024 15:51
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lobster shirt posted:https://abcnews.go.com/International/live-updates/israel-gaza-hamas-war/?id=107535302 In my opinion, you make this kind of sudden announcement if you're secretly at an impasse and you want to pressure the other guy into either capitulating or publicly stating that you're not of one mind about this, which means Biden either gets credit for pausing the war or Biden creates an image that there's more distance between the US and Israel than it is currently perceived.
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Feb 27, 2024 16:07
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I think Netanyahu stated in an interview a few days ago that Hamas wasn't even in the same universe as far as demands for the ceasefire so either this is a mistake by Biden, he's trying to put some pressure on Bibi, or the latter (or the source) is lying/wrong
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Feb 27, 2024 16:09
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:This election cycle is likely to be a rematch from 2020. What an absolutely bonkers waste of money that would be again.
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Feb 27, 2024 16:10
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Biden is just apparently scheduling multiple different interviews to go on and drop previously secret information about the negotiations. Hamas also says they aren't going to agree to a ceasefire unless Israel fully demilitarizes, so who knows what is going on. Acording to Biden, Saudi Arabia has already privately committed to recognizing Israel along with several other Arab countries. https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1762464843859165369 https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1762465829914816531 https://twitter.com/jeremyscahill/status/1762268146218455401 Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Feb 27, 2024 |
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Feb 27, 2024 16:15
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:This election cycle is likely to be a rematch from 2020. There are a ton of identical repeated paragraphs here and it made me feel like I was losing my mind - is it that way in the original or just an error of transcription? Edit: for actual content, this kind of poo poo just raises his profile, right? The first recall petition definitely seemed to me to be part of him getting national attention. Sort of seems like a situation where trying to tear him down makes him a figure to rally around rather than tarnishing him. Like, the whole reason why desantis debating him made sense is because desantis is "the" red state governor and Newsom is "the" blue state governor as far as national media is concerned, and so things like this are just going to cement that further. I can see how that might benefit Republicans in that it lets them pick who they'll be fighting in 2028 to some extent, but it's definitely gonna accomplish the opposite of what the campaigners are claiming here. BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Feb 27, 2024 |
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Feb 27, 2024 16:24
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Biden is just apparently scheduling multiple different interviews to go on and drop previously secret information about the negotiations. Hamas also says they aren't going to agree to a ceasefire unless Israel fully demilitarizes, so who knows what is going on. I think it’s him trying to get past a last wedge to something. As for both Israel and Hamas statements. I feel like they are gonna say that publicly no matter what. I want to be hopeful about this and Biden and co don’t strike me as the types who just drop the news.
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Feb 27, 2024 16:26
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BougieBitch posted:There are a ton of identical repeated paragraphs here and it made me feel like I was losing my mind - is it that way in the original or just an error of transcription? Whoops. No, I just hit paste too many times. I fixed it in the OP.
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Feb 27, 2024 16:27
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I know he didn’t, but I envision him changing gay marriage policy the same way, as horrified Obama advisors watched. “Gay marriage? Sure, who cares about that, we should legalize it. God drat this is some good rum raisin.”
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Feb 27, 2024 16:29
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TheDisreputableDog posted:I know he didn’t, but I envision him changing gay marriage policy the same way, as horrified Obama advisors watched. “Gay marriage? Sure, who cares about that, we should legalize it. God drat this is some good rum raisin.” Nancy Pelosi's ice cream freezer finally explained - it's the secret sauce for getting progressive policy!
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Feb 27, 2024 16:39
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