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Ravenfood posted:"No living man can defeat me" isn't as much of a shield when you're fighting a host of men and elves as it is when you're picking on the near-corpse of Gondor. The “not by the hand of man will he fall” thing was millennia after the last alliance anyway. Might have been nice if Glorfindel had delivered his prophecy before Angmar finished off the north-kingdom
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Feb 27, 2024 19:18
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When the hobbits passed back through Rivendell on the way back, do you think Glorfindel was like eh? eh? It was a pun! Pretty good huh?
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Feb 27, 2024 19:21
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Plan A was that the Seven* and the Nine, and any other Greater Rings out there were supposed to be his tools for subverting the Elves and destroying them anyway. It was only after the wearers of the Three (which were not part of the original plan, but Sauron thought he could use them too) noticed the forging of the Ruling Ring that Plan A went sideways. I'm guessing when they realized his intentions they told everyone to take their rings off ASAP, and whether or not everyone did Sauron's intent to dominate the wearers was immediately known and they could resist him to a degree. So he was forced to switch to Plan B: invade and destroy Eregion and the remnant Noldor and seize the Rings. Plan B worked like a charm, and then he gave the Nine and the Seven to Men and Dwarves to bring them under his control. The Seven didn't quite work because Dwarves gonna Dwarf, but the Nine turning great kings of Men into powerful undead Ring-wraiths under his control worked perfectly. The Nazgűl were a very powerful tool over the centuries. We know that Angmar was the tool by which Arnor was destroyed, and that wouldn't have worked out without it being a Nazgűl project. And along the way it also helped end the line of Kings of Gondor, so hey: bonus. We're not really told explicitly (any more than we're told what the Blue Wizards got up to) but I can't imagine the Nazgűl weren't also key in bringing the rest of the nations of Arda under Sauron's heel as well. We're meant to assume that north-western Middle-Earth was the only place still putting up any significant resistance. So while the whole Ring project did indeed have its failures - fairly major ones, even - I wouldn't say it was an unmitigated disaster for Sauron from the word "go". He was able to leverage it into some real power over the long term. * I'm not sure where it's mentioned or if it's meant to be true at any point, but the Dwarves have a tradition that the Ring given to the House of Durin was not given by Sauron but by Celebrimbor, so it was less under his control than the others. EDIT: Beaten, should have refreshed. Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Feb 27, 2024 |
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Feb 27, 2024 19:35
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more like Mauron
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Feb 27, 2024 19:45
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skasion posted:Yes, highly likely. The Akallabeth says that three of the nine were of Numenorean ancestry. So six weren’t. I recall reading that Tolkien explicitly and deliberately didn't want to tell the story of the Nazgűl, so he never did. Can't find a cite on that though. The only one who even got a name was Khaműl the Easterling.
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Feb 27, 2024 19:46
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NikkolasKing posted:I feel sorry for Saruman. He made a genuine effort for a long time to try and defeat Sauron, but there literally was no way to do it. You can't destroy the Ring and you can't defeat him militarily. The only hope for Middle-earth was a miracle. There's a running theme throughout Tolkien's work that the intelligent, practical choice is the one that leads you astray to damnation and the path of salvation is to act on faith that somebody's got your back and are doing their part. Whether that's the Valar, a couple Hobbits on a death march, or Eru Illúvatar his own self - steadfast hope in the face of a hopeless situation is the highest virtue. It doesn't even always work out (respect to Fingolfin, you magnificent badass) but it's always the right choice anyway.
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Feb 27, 2024 19:53
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Lemniscate Blue posted:There's a running theme throughout Tolkien's work that the intelligent, practical choice is the one that leads you astray to damnation and the path of salvation is to act on faith that somebody's got your back and are doing their part. well I think if the intelligent, practical choice is also morally correct, you're probably supposed to go with that instead of just shouting YOLO and hoping Manwe has his eye on you.
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Feb 27, 2024 20:07
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Lemniscate Blue posted:It doesn't even always work out (respect to Fingolfin, you magnificent badass) but it's always the right choice anyway. Eh, even the very wise cannot see all ends.
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Feb 27, 2024 20:09
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Prefer to believe Glorfindel had no prophetic abilities. he was just trying to calm Earnur down but the Gondorians mistook his highfalutin elvish verbiage for second sight. Probably had a whole cottage industry of scholarship trying to decide exactly how the ancient elf sage meant to say the Witch King will die. falling off his horse, pipeweed overdose, kicked to death by Jean Claude Van Damme etc
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Feb 27, 2024 20:16
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How strong were the Nazgűl anyway, if some nameless Arnorian blacksmith could make a sword that could kill the strongest one
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Feb 27, 2024 21:42
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meatbag posted:How strong were the Nazgűl anyway, if some nameless Arnorian blacksmith could make a sword that could kill the strongest one Kind of depends how scared you are. Sam’s dad, who had no idea he was supposed to be afraid, was able to send one packing with a sternly worded “get off my lawn”.
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Feb 27, 2024 21:54
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Those blacksmiths really loving hated the Nazgul, which counts for a lot.
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Feb 27, 2024 21:54
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meatbag posted:How strong were the Nazgűl anyway, if some nameless Arnorian blacksmith could make a sword that could kill the strongest one tolkien just very much did not have video game brain
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Feb 27, 2024 22:27
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That was no ordinary sword. It was designed to kill the witch king by numenorians. It just sat in a narrow for awhile
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Feb 27, 2024 22:30
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How did they know it would work, was there a 10th Nazgűl?
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Feb 27, 2024 23:18
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YaketySass posted:How did they know it would work, was there a 10th Nazgűl? It had mighty spells laid upon it to disrupt the dark magic that allowed the corpses of the Nazgűl to animate. Then all you had to do was lop its head off or send it down a roaring River and the evil spirit within would fly back to Sauron to be kitted out again. I don’t think they could really be killed while Sauron lived but good enough.
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Feb 27, 2024 23:34
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If Frodo passed into the shadow realm and became a wraith would he ger a cute little black rider uniform to hang out with the Nine?
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Feb 28, 2024 00:00
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I feel like if you don't specifically turn into a wraith from the slow corruption of a Ring of Power you don't get to join the club. They'd have the Barrow-Wights babysit him or something.
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Feb 28, 2024 00:09
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Depending on how much you trust Gandalf ‘They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have become a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord; and he would have tormented you for trying to keep his Ring, if any greater torment were possible than being robbed of it and seeing it on his hand.’
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Feb 28, 2024 00:29
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I trust gandalf with my life.
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Feb 28, 2024 01:11
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If I had the talent to write I always thought a ghost story about one of those lesser wraiths, or even one about Sauron after the Ring is destroyed would be fun. Like it's however long later and Sauron is reduced to being the Amityville horror. Just terrorizing individuals and families. No threat to humanity or the world, just a plain old mean and evil spirit lashing out forever.
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Feb 28, 2024 04:52
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euphronius posted:Gandalf says at some point Sauron would never expect anyone to destroy the ring. Assuming Gandalf was right, Sauron was correct. No one on middle earth has the ability to destroy the Ring. Eru had to literally intervene which is I think cheating against poor Sauron. Gandalf said that Sauron would never expect them to seek to destroy the ring. It had nothing to do with their ability to destroy the ring and everything to do with Sauron's inability to understand people who didn't seek domination over others.
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Feb 28, 2024 05:09
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sweet geek swag posted:Gandalf said that Sauron would never expect them to seek to destroy the ring. It had nothing to do with their ability to destroy the ring and everything to do with Sauron's inability to understand people who didn't seek domination over others. I think it’s a fair read that it pretty much took divine intervention for the ring to be destroyed. Frodo was probably the single best-suited person for the quest in middle earth, and he was unable to except by a twist of fate. Of course it’s true that Sauron thought people wouldn’t destroy the ring, not that they couldn’t, but the fact was that even attempting to destroy the ring was relying entirely on faith in an otherwise impossible situation.
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Feb 28, 2024 07:08
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euphronius posted:Depending on how much you trust Gandalf Yeah, but we're talking outfits here, does he get a set of dinky black robes, or just whatever he's wearing?
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Feb 28, 2024 08:47
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Heithinn Grasida posted:I think it’s a fair read that it pretty much took divine intervention for the ring to be destroyed. Frodo was probably the single best-suited person for the quest in middle earth, and he was unable to except by a twist of fate. Of course it’s true that Sauron thought people wouldn’t destroy the ring, not that they couldn’t, but the fact was that even attempting to destroy the ring was relying entirely on faith in an otherwise impossible situation. I think there's a case to be made that you're right but I also don't think that any character in the books thought that to be the case. Gandalf and Elrond wouldn't have sent Frodo on a quest to destroy the ring if they didn't think he'd be able to actually do it without divine intervention. Like yes they knew that getting to mt doom with the ring would be nearly impossible but I don't think they believed that once he got there that Frodo (or whoever) would be unable to actually cast it into the fire. And at the end when Frodo claims the ring at Mt. Doom Sauron responds quickly and Tolkien writes in the prose about basically how terrified he is at the narrow thread on which his doom now hangs. He's not afraid at that point that Frodo is going to claim the ring and supplant him. He's afraid that Frodo might actually destroy the ring or that it will come to harm by him being near the crack of doom. So I think both sides believed that the ring could be destroyed even if Sauron at least never expected that anybody would try. At the least at the very end Sauron is afraid of it happening. If he knew the ring as well as we as readers know it he might have just laughed at Frodo bringing it there and basically been like haha nice job bringing it to the crack of doom but too bad no mortal has the willpower to actually destroy this thing so you hosed up. But he doesn't laugh and basically shits his pants because hey what if this little hobbit nutter actually blows the ring up.
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Feb 28, 2024 11:28
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That section from Sauron’s pov is a little strange. How would the narrator know what Sauron was thinking ? I guess Frodo kind of mind melded with him once he put the ring on You are right tho it is interesting what is he so afraid about ? He could just take the ring from Frodo. I think you are right to infer he was afraid it would “accidentally” fall into the fire
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Feb 28, 2024 12:38
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Findegil, King's Fabulist
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Feb 28, 2024 13:35
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euphronius posted:That section from Sauron’s pov is a little strange. How would the narrator know what Sauron was thinking ? I guess Frodo kind of mind melded with him once he put the ring on I think Frodo and Sauron were probably mentally fighting/bonded while he claimed the ring.
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Feb 28, 2024 13:45
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Tolkien's Catholic beliefs informing his fiction leaves us all tangled up age old real world theological and philosophical issues. Sure it was divine intervention and a twist of fate which undid the Ring, but it was only brought about by Frodo's freely willed decision to spare and try to redeem Gollum. Had Frodo done differently there, everyone be doomed as the "players" never would have gotten to the required places for Eru to move them.
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Feb 28, 2024 14:02
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You can also look at Eru's intervention as being literally just setting up how oaths work in that world. Smeagol freely swears by the Ring to obey the holder; Frodo while holding the ring commands him: "If you touch me ever again you shall be cast yourself into the fire of doom". And then that's exactly what happens.
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Feb 28, 2024 14:56
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Right but who is doing the casting there. Similar to Saruman’s statement (hearsay through Gandalf [how much of this relies on trusting Gandalf !!]) Into Anduin the Great it fell; and long ago, while Sauron slept, it was rolled down the River to the Sea. Who rolled it down the river ? Edit Making it explicit: the speakers in LoTr often hide divine intervention behind passive voice constructions euphronius fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Feb 28, 2024 |
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Feb 28, 2024 15:03
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euphronius posted:Right but who is doing the casting there. oh god not this again
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Feb 28, 2024 15:07
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Why did Saruman and Frodo use the passive voice then in your opinion. Frodo could easily have said “I will cast you into the fire” Here is another example ‘I will take the Ring,’ he said, ‘though I do not know the way.’ Elrond raised his eyes and looked at him, and Frodo felt his heart pierced by the sudden keenness of the glance. ‘If I understand aright all that I have heard,’ he said, ‘I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will. Appointed by whom?? The Council explicitly does not appoint anyone Edit edit ‘Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. And that may be an encouraging thought.’ Who meant Bilbo to find the ring ? Who meant Frodo to have the ring ? I love how Gandalf says he can say it no plainer and then uses the passive voice lol euphronius fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Feb 28, 2024 |
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Feb 28, 2024 15:11
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Who makes a rock roll downhill? No-one, that's just how the universe is set up. There are, on the other hand, moments of divine intervention we can directly point to like the drowning of Numenor, that were unambiguously an intervention by Eru that otherwise were not possible within the laws of the universe.
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Feb 28, 2024 15:21
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He doesn’t day it rolled. He says it was rolled. As in someone rolled it Anyway he was lying and said that to ease the concerns of the white council. It would not ease the concerns of the white council if what they inferred was the ring randomly rolled into the sea. It would ease their concerns if they inferred some divine entity caused the ring to go into the sea
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Feb 28, 2024 15:24
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euphronius posted:He doesn’t day it rolled. He says it was rolled. Yeah, by gravity.
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Feb 28, 2024 15:25
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Cavelcade posted:Who makes a rock roll downhill? No-one, that's just how the universe is set up. By whom
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Feb 28, 2024 15:25
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Cavelcade posted:Yeah, by gravity. Your interpretation takes the “was” out. I think you should account for the text saying “was rolled” not just “rolled” Even so why didn’t Saruman just say “the current of the river rolled the ring into the sea “
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Feb 28, 2024 15:27
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skasion posted:By whom The song of the Ainur, given form by Eru as Ëa, which still allows for acts of free will by its inhabitants. euphronius posted:Your interpretation takes the “was” out. I think you should account for the text saying “was rolled” not just “rolled” In Saruman's case: he's lying, but since Caradhras has a will of its own, I would hazard he means Anduin itself.
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Feb 28, 2024 15:29
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So your interpretation is the river had free will to roll the ring ? Or the ring rolled itself by free will? Why didn’t Saruman say that
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Feb 28, 2024 15:30
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