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Bushes don’t save anyone in a wool coat from a 1944 rifle round either, they make you a more difficult target to hit
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Feb 28, 2024 01:40
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Which is why blocking line of sight is probably more important than whichever way they modify dice rolls.
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Feb 28, 2024 01:53
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Honestly the proviso for AP 0 seems like a bit of a waste of space. It makes some sense fluff wise but if your are shooting marines or terminator with lasguns you are relying on volume anyway
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Feb 28, 2024 04:42
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Virtual Russian posted:Yes, in Epic: Armageddon all cover gives an automatic -1 to hit. It is a great system and it means anything, regardless of armor, benefits from cover no matter what. Let it be known that Virtual Russian is a cool and kind person, for purchasing Vostroyans, and being really nice about me screwing up shipping to Canada (be very careful with Pirate Ship and UPS from the US to Canada, "Brokerage Fees" are a new thing to me.
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Feb 28, 2024 04:44
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It's because we in Canada pay tax on stuff we buy. Which means courier services deal with customs to get stuff shipped faster, but they pass that cost along to the person on the receiving end, so they get double dinged there.
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Feb 28, 2024 04:56
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The best is when the courier company charges you 10 bucks for the courtesy of filing your customs forms for you on an order of $50 that you pay like $6 in tax
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Feb 28, 2024 05:35
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Lostconfused posted:Time to bring back 3rd edition or whatever cover save that game you a 4+ save no matter what. It was 5+ and it meant that cover basically didn't matter
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Feb 28, 2024 08:09
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Geisladisk posted:It was 5+ and it meant that cover basically didn't matter It mattered a whole hell of a lot because AP was binary - either you got an armor save or you didn't.
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Feb 28, 2024 08:44
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raverrn posted:It mattered a whole hell of a lot because AP was binary - either you got an armor save or you didn't. I thought it didn't because everyone tooled up for AP3 (to kill marines) so that 5+ never came into play.
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Feb 28, 2024 09:30
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Z the IVth posted:I thought it didn't because everyone tooled up for AP3 (to kill marines) so that 5+ never came into play. AP3 meant that marines would actually get to use their cover save though - it was small arms fire where they'd be taking the 3+ armour save instead. My own lean on it is that cover should be a 6+FNP, or a +1 to any existing FNP roll.
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Feb 28, 2024 10:13
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I've always preferred the system where AP needs to beat the armour save or it doesn't penetrate at all, but I think I'm in the minority there.
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Feb 28, 2024 10:29
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The batreps where the sarge with 2+ artificer stands in front of his squad tanking the AP3 is wild. If he makes the saves great if he doesn't the entire squad evaporates.
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Feb 28, 2024 11:32
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DeceasedHorse posted:Honestly the proviso for AP 0 seems like a bit of a waste of space. It makes some sense fluff wise but if your are shooting marines or terminator with lasguns you are relying on volume anyway Mathematically it halves incoming damage from AP0, so pretty significant. Under normal circumstances it takes around 20 bolter shots to kill one marine, but a 3+ save allowed to reach 2+ in cover would require 40 shots. In comparison; 20 bolter shots kill 5.75 guardsmen normally but cover giving them a 4+ save only requires 26 shots to achieve the same result. Cover is primarily there to help keep weaker units alive, while marines should be striding through light enemy fire without needing to hide in bushes. Going back to the discussion about cover giving -1 to hit, this has issues in a bunch of scenarios: While GW insist on sticking to a D6-based system then any modifiers have a significant impact. -1 against BS4+ reduces hits by 33%, while the same against BS5+ is a 50% reduction. Cover is so common that you can plausibly get a whole army protected by it for much of the early game, which makes a big difference when facing factions like Orks or Guard. Cover currently interacting with AP means that weapons which would just blast through walls or trees still do. For example plasma weapons currently don't care about a Tyranid's 4+/5+ cover save, the save bonus mainly help protects them from lasgun or bolter fire. Weapons like AP-4 railgun equivalents can currently blast through cover benefits to ruin the day of light/medium armour. However if cover was a hit modifier this would have the same impact on bolters as it does on lascannons, with the issue that low volume of fire weapons are more swingy and susceptible to losing all their damage to modifiers. It's much easier to miss 2-3 shots than to miss 20-30 shots. This would be an even bigger incentive for units like tanks or terminators to be hiding behind walls as it would increase their protetction from the strongest weapons. There are also other cases of -1 to hit modifiers such as Stealth/Smoke that would need a total rethink. In theory Stealthy units generally should be getting additional protection from being in cover, but wouldn't here because two modifiers don't stack. Meanwhile due to their hit modifier getting capped, bracketed vehicles & monsters would be equally effective shooting at targets inside or outside of cover. Basically -1 to hit in cover it would be a massive benefit to the units which need it least, and works best against the kind of weapons that it shouldn't protect from.
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Feb 28, 2024 11:50
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Z the IVth posted:I thought it didn't because everyone tooled up for AP3 (to kill marines) so that 5+ never came into play. That's exactly why it DID work - AP worked exclusively against armor saved, so you'd default to your cover or invulnerable instead. Flamers would ignore your cover save, so if they beat your armor as well you'd just get an invuln. And the Incinerator ignored cover AND invulnerables, so you were right proper toasted.
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Feb 28, 2024 11:56
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Failson posted:Let it be known that Virtual Russian is a cool and kind person, for purchasing Vostroyans, and being really nice about me screwing up shipping to Canada (be very careful with Pirate Ship and UPS from the US to Canada, "Brokerage Fees" are a new thing to me. You didn't screw up. Canada used to have a customs duty exemption of $20 Canadian. The basic US exemption, for comparison, is $800. This is something the Canadian government does to make it unappealing for Canadians to just buy stuff from American retailers and have it shipped. SHOP LOCAL!!!!!! etc. It was so obviously obnoxious that even Trump was aware of it and demanded that Canada raise the tariff exemption limit for the free trade deal. Canada complied, raising the limit to $200. Canadian. For goods shipped from the US. But it was a trick. The sales tax exemption (GST/HST) was only raised to $40. So now Canadians pay a huge fee for a customs broker to not actually charge customs, but to simply pay like $5 in sales tax. It's a major pain in the neck for miniature hobbyists, as everything is specialized as many things simply aren't available in Canada.
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Feb 28, 2024 12:18
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JBP posted:I've always preferred the system where AP needs to beat the armour save or it doesn't penetrate at all, but I think I'm in the minority there. i mean, 30K still works that way
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Feb 28, 2024 15:00
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Is this the space to ask about getting into Killteam? I've bought a box of Hearthkyn Salvagers and looking around to find that it's a team that needs a particular build to function. Looks like my options are to buy a second box of the killteam, a box of the regular squat warriors, or to magnetize my models. Which do you reccomend?
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Feb 28, 2024 16:02
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Triskelli posted:Is this the space to ask about getting into Killteam? I've bought a box of Hearthkyn Salvagers and looking around to find that it's a team that needs a particular build to function. Looks like my options are to buy a second box of the killteam, a box of the regular squat warriors, or to magnetize my models. Which do you reccomend? The specialist games thread will know what to do
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Feb 28, 2024 16:51
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JBP posted:I've always preferred the system where AP needs to beat the armour save or it doesn't penetrate at all, but I think I'm in the minority there. It did a great job of distinguishing between different grades of armour. Space marines tanking autocannon and heavy bolter rounds on a 3+ that just blew through carapace armour really helped with emphasizing how tough to kill they really were supposed to be.
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Feb 28, 2024 18:35
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raverrn posted:That's exactly why it DID work - AP worked exclusively against armor saved, so you'd default to your cover or invulnerable instead. Flamers would ignore your cover save, so if they beat your armor as well you'd just get an invuln. And the Incinerator ignored cover AND invulnerables, so you were right proper toasted. Ah I get you know. Didn't realise there was a distinction between cover and armour. Goes to show I last played in 2nd. 
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Feb 28, 2024 20:10
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 Huh, didn't realize shooting at something from cover gives it benefit of cover. But I guess that is rules as written.
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Feb 28, 2024 21:01
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Lostconfused posted:
Well, not necessarily. If you're all in a building and can see all your targets out through the window, then they don't get cover, because they're all fully visible.
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Feb 28, 2024 21:11
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Cease to Hope posted:i mean, 30K still works that way As I said, I'm in the minority.
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Feb 28, 2024 22:49
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I finally finished building my last 20x Iron Warriors. My primaris kitbashes had chains hanging from them and I wanted to do the same thing with the MKIII marines but the size difference made it look terrible. I have some smaller gauge chain but it still looks off, and when you stand the two different scaled marine units next to each other it (imo) does not look good. I'm debating adding some studs to various armor bits on some of the MKIII's to visually distinguish them even further but I'm not totally sold on the idea as of yet. I also managed to snap two legs off in order to kitbash some cybernetic legs but then I got real iffy about it and ended up just gluing the legs back on since I didn't want to sculpt knee joints. I've also started prepping the bases for some golden crackle medium by spreading some pva glue with a few drops of liquitex flow aid mixed in as I noticed on my prior test bases the pva had issues staying spread out, and it worked perfectly. I ruined my glue application brush the last time I worked on my Capitol Imperialis (I didn't clean off the wood glue cause I l was tired and forgot) so I opted for a makeup sponge and let me tell you it was the perfect tool for the job this time around. I spent some time chunking up some cork for the bases, and soon they'll get the crackle medium (my replacement for Martian Ironearrh) and I can really start building up the war torn city aesthetic I use for the rest of the army. Pics will come after that.
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Feb 29, 2024 04:09
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Right, so let me see if I have this straight. Once upon a time millions of years ago, there was a realm called the Immaterium, it basically followed the concept of Jung's collective unconsciousness, it was made of the energy and shaped by the minds and wills and emotions of all living, sapient(?), besouled(??) creatures and the energies these contained, it was where beings of collective belief like gods were formed in, and it was basically neutral. Then the Old Ones and the Necrontyr had such an appallingly bad war that caused so much negativity to get dumped into the Immaterium that it was permanently warped into, well, The Warp, there was no going back to the way it had once been. This action also birthed the first three Chaos Gods (or was that later?), who have ensured that the Warp remains the Warp, with Slaneesh adding to the mess and even moreso because due to the Warp refusing to follow any proper concept of space and time once Slaneesh was 'born' at the end of the 29th millenium s/he at that point 'always' existed in the Warp. It has been noted that the Warhammer 40k galaxy is so gigantic, and since the universe hews to a mild sense of realism when it comes to getting around (our closest star is 4.3 light years away, so it would take a ship going at light speed for over 4 years 24/7 to get there, hence why so many of the factions have to use the Warp to take 'shortcuts' as best they can, except for the Necrons and I think the Tau, I forget what they do), that for all the endless planets and systems being destroyed by Chaos and Orks and Tyranids and Necrons and occasional anomolies that get turned into fanwank like the Nex, there are planets where Chaos never reaches for one reason or another, and nothing falls out of the sky and destroys everything, you can live your whole life without any of the grimdark touching you, you might not even know it exists. But, the only afterlife is the Warp. You're always hearing about all these evils consuming souls, or turning them into fuel or drugs, or just making them suffer forever because everyone in the Warp is a jerk like that, and then there are humans who literally have a gene that makes them have no souls, so they just cease to exist entirely when they die...so basically, no matter what you do, you go to hell when you die? Everyone is doomed to damnation sooner or later? That can't be right, if just because we do have psykers like noted Librarians and people like the Grey Knights who wield the Warp solely to SMITE EVIL and don't get corrupted by Chaos doing so, and if the Warp was nothing but hell and every besouled being was ending up there when they die no matter what, then Chaos would have won by now, by sheer weight of despair and attrition.
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Feb 29, 2024 07:05
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Cornwind Evil posted:so many of the factions have to use the Warp to take 'shortcuts' as best they can, except for the Necrons and I think the Tau, I forget what they do The Old Ones built the Webway and the Necrons, with the help of the C'tan, built their own invasion points, which they still use to get around. They also have an inertialess drive that is just  a wizard did it. T'au have drives that can reach a significant fraction of C in realspace, and/or gravitic drives that basically work like warp drives but don't fully cross over into the warp. GW can't decide. Either way, it's not particularly fast. What actually happens in the human afterlife is vague. The Imperial Cult does have an afterlife alongside the Emperor in golden glory, but it's not like anyone knows that happens for certain. Humans can sell their soul to demons, or and Eldar can have it trapped by demons (if not by their own technology), but nobody has yet met a human in the afterlife, and nobody has yet figured out how to ask anyone who sold their soul to demons why dying seemed to be so terrifying and awful. If plaguebearers, bloodletters, etc. are made of human souls, they don't seem to be made of particular human souls. Joe the Human does not die and become Joe the Plaguebearer. Hell exists, but nobody knows if you go to hell when you die, unless you're a demon where you definitely do that. The Warp is shaped by creatures with souls commensurate with how strong their souls are, but it's not clear if demons eat souls or barter for souls or corrupt people because it aggrandizes the Warp, because they need to do so to sustain it, or just because they're dicks. It could just be that demons are immortal sadists driven by compulsions with no natural analogue.
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Feb 29, 2024 07:34
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There are "good" warp entities absorbing souls (the Tau greater good entity for example) and probably others creating little pockets of various heavens throughout warp space like the now confirmed Star Child and even the rest of The Emperor himself to a degree. But most souls do dissolve in the warp and the fragments of the beings essence are disseminated to drift, coalesce, or be maliciously consumed. Some psykers can maintain their sapience in the warp but lol, good luck. Also: Gav Thorpe's Patreon posted:I try to cleave to the old RoC (Realm of Chaos) background as much as possible, departing only where directly contradicted in a more recent text or something really cool is possible if we bend things slightly. The Sisters' souls is one such exception, where the sheer weight of faith surrounding their internment has created a liminal overlap between realspace and the warp, and it is this that the Chaos followers are trying to subvert. If you read the Dawn of Fire series you'll see other examples of this anti-faith approach from Chaos (particularly a Word Bearers kind of thing ever since the Heresy) as they exploit any weaknesses between the Realm of Chaos and the Imperium. Codex Chaos Daemons 8th ed posted:When devotees of Chaos die, their souls do not fade in the warp and disappear like the spirits of others. Instead, their immortal energy is swallowed into the greatness of their gods, their souls forever bound to the eternal power of Chaos.
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Feb 29, 2024 07:35
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In a few of the novels you briefly see an afterlife in the warp. It's usually your soul being torn apart and eaten by daemons. In Titandeath the soul of a titan Princeps gets saved from that fate by a spiritual representation of their titan when they're absorbed into the manifold. The ones that have their soul 'saved' by the Emperor generally seem to be saints and such, not so much for the general rando.
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Feb 29, 2024 07:41
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Now that is T'au for some reason how are you meant to pronounce that? Tuh Ow Tee Ow Or do you just ignore the fantasy apostrophe?
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Feb 29, 2024 12:15
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I'm assuming everyone just ignores it. But then I never watch warhammer videos so I have no idea.
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Feb 29, 2024 12:19
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The key is that souls aren't in the warp, they are the warp. That's what the warp is. A soul in 40k isn't some special immortal part of you though, it is a temporary thing and without a biological life to sustain it best case scenario it will just kind of peacefully dissolve when you die. But mostly yeah, you'll get eaten by a demon or something unless you're a psyker and your soul can last longer in which case an eternity of torment. And indeed this sucks and Lorgar realizing this is how it works is the main thing that started his path towards the gods and kicking off the Horus Heresy.
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Feb 29, 2024 13:30
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Communist Thoughts posted:Now that is T'au for some reason how are you meant to pronounce that? Tay-you
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Feb 29, 2024 13:37
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Celestine has a different sort of afterlife, but then she's kind of a special case.
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Feb 29, 2024 13:43
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Improbable Lobster posted:The ones that have their soul 'saved' by the Emperor generally seem to be saints and such, not so much for the general rando. Edit: I guess that's a better fit for the emperor being a jumped up useless piece of poo poo instead of actually a god of humanity. Lostconfused fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Feb 29, 2024 |
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Feb 29, 2024 13:47
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Improbable Lobster posted:In a few of the novels you briefly see an afterlife in the warp. It's usually your soul being torn apart and eaten by daemons. In Titandeath the soul of a titan Princeps gets saved from that fate by a spiritual representation of their titan when they're absorbed into the manifold. There was a scene in one of the Guard novels about the protagonist begins his afterlife in parade with his other dead buddies as they load up on a dropship. Lostconfused posted:Oh they changed that? I think 'saved' is used very loosely here - My impression is all the randos are just absorbed into the greater gestalt of the Emperor and don't maintain any real individuality. It takes being a Saint to be worth of preservation as an entity. Much like how all random chaos cultists are just eaten by their god when they die vs those who ascend to daemonhood. Z the IVth fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Feb 29, 2024 |
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Feb 29, 2024 15:08
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Z the IVth posted:There was a scene in one of the Guard novels about the protagonist begins his afterlife in parade with his other dead buddies as they load up on a dropship.
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Feb 29, 2024 15:33
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Cornwind Evil posted:Right, so let me see if I have this straight. Frankly I think this bit is being overwritten a little, with ideas like the deep warp and non-Chaos warp shenanigans becoming a possibility. Most notable here is the God of the Greater Good from the Shadowsun novel, which is the sort of thing you'd expect to be torn to shreds immediately after being formed.
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Feb 29, 2024 15:38
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Lostconfused posted:Whoa whoa, hold on there, I was told duty ends at death, is there no end to these lies?  
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Feb 29, 2024 15:54
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Communist Thoughts posted:Now that is T'au for some reason how are you meant to pronounce that? The apostrophe was added in 8th edition so GW could more effectively enforce trademarks. From 3rd to 7th edition there wasn't an apostrophe, so I still just say "Tau" Kinda like how aeldari reads as "eldar" in my mind. e: misread your original post & see that you know this, but yeah still just "Tau." Nancy fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Feb 29, 2024 |
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Feb 29, 2024 16:08
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Communist Thoughts posted:Now that is T'au for some reason how are you meant to pronounce that? Tauuuuuu'urns
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Feb 29, 2024 16:33
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