|
Is he still a protagonist at that point rather than a full-on antagonist? I'm guessing he's the latter if only by ignorance or failure or his brain not being very humanoidy with empathy for individuals at that point. But, uh, we're talking scifi so instituting slavery and creating a system where those who rise to the top get it all whereas previously everyone had some, even if this is deliberate on the part of a character, doesn't preclude the author or his fans from seeing the character as a protagonist.
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 14:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 18:48 |
|
|
He says that Hitler’s kill count is an exponent less than his. So, you decide.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 14:31
|
|
|
Important question: do we get any more Sardaukar throat singing?
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 14:32
|
|
|
Jewmanji posted:It’s made pretty clear that the Fremen culture under Paul became decadent, fascist, etc. By Messiah they’d already instituted slavery. All those mentions about Fremen culture slowly losing water discipline is a metaphor for how much the Atreides have contaminated Fremen culture. Kinda funny given a lot of that is also people who've developed an extremely disciplined and cautious survival culture by necessity are bending to practicality, Paul does say he needs to emphasise to the Fremen fundamentalists to keep moving because they're reluctant to abandon good equipment, but the stakes are so much higher than that now. Both in real life and in fiction, strict honour codes bend to practicality and actually winning the war. But that also means the Fremen become more like the rest of the galaxy, and even worse because they consider themselves to be on a mission from God. Even the Harkonnens don't make any excuse for what they do other than that they can and they enjoy it. Then again, one thing the movies definitely lose is Kynes' character being flattened, given he pretty much sees where this is all going- the Fremen were already on track to terraform Arrakis on their own, without the need for outside help, even if it would take so much longer, it would validate their discipline, their cultural cohesion and their faith. Instead, they get a Hero, who gives them everything they want as reward for killing his enemies. Bright Bart posted:Is he still a protagonist at that point rather than a full-on antagonist? We've had this whole discussion before, but 'protagonist' and 'antagonist' are not synonyms for 'good guy' and 'bad guy'. Protagonist literally means 'main character'. See how Thanos is the protagonist of Infinity War, the movie follows his journey, his progress in his goals, his trials and setbacks, and ultimate triumph.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 14:33
|
|
|
question: was harkonnen bloodline twist in the book cuz i dont remember that at all but i read in HSMagic Hate Ball posted:if we don't get a cat-rat milking scene i'm going to throw my Dune 2 Souvenir Sandworm Popcorn Bucket at the screen theyre sold out here 
Alan Smithee fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Mar 1, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 14:36
|
|
|
Monica Bellucci posted:Look, we ain't getting the dinner scene, let's get over it. they made spicebeard a real dick Bright Bart posted:
da fuq Big Dick Cheney posted:Important question: do we get any more Sardaukar throat singing? they go from weird metal vikings to rent-a-cops so no Alan Smithee fucked around with this message at 14:47 on Mar 1, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 14:40
|
|
|
Alan Smithee posted:question: was harkonnen bloodline twist in the book cuz i dont remember that at all but i read in HS Yes, it comes roaring back in Messiah because the Baron is the grandfather of Alia and Paul, and it drives Alia insane.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 15:09
|
|
|
Saw it last night, it's real fuckin good. I liked it more than Part 1, which I also really enjoyed. There's a lot less fundamental worldbuilding this time around, and it feels like the movie has a lot more room to be weird and for its characters to breathe and grow. Paul and Jessica's transformations are great. Just as in Part 1, there's a lot more relatable humanity than in the book, which I think is an improvement for a 3 hour condensed adaptation. Especially early on, there's a surprising amount of humor, which surprised me. I don't remember the book having tension between northern and southern Fremen, but it works well as a narrative device because it hints at the themes of Messiah very explicitly, and lends the story some much needed tension and internal conflict. Feyd Rautha was also great, creepier than I was anticipating. I'm seeing it again in a week and I already can't wait.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 15:32
|
|
|
Pretty sure I heard a little Elvis slip into Austin Butler's performance, made me laugh. I liked it, it's very pretty and a bit weirder -- between this and a few other big things recently (Poor Things, Saltburn, Barbie) I'm very happy to see a rise in things being fun wonky and strange -- but it's too. bloody. long. When a character set up the final act by announcing that the story "wasn't over" I audibly groaned. I swear this thing has at least five or six separate acts.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 15:39
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:We've had this whole discussion before, but 'protagonist' and 'antagonist' are not synonyms for 'good guy' and 'bad guy'. Protagonist literally means 'main character'. See how Thanos is the protagonist of Infinity War, the movie follows his journey, his progress in his goals, his trials and setbacks, and ultimate triumph. Genuine apologies if I'm beating a dead horse. And you're right about the nomenclature. In fact a large number of antagonists are the ones we're intended to, expected to, and do root for e.g. the rebel leaders in Macbeth. But if the only consensus was that the question is irrelevant because people like me were using terms wrong (or at least colloquially), it's a question that might be worth asking again. I'm not going to define the colloquial definition of "protagonist" or "antagonist". Or even hero or villain. I want to be as black & white as possible. Is Paul, by that time, treated in the novels as A or B? Where A is a character whose good/just/virtuous thoughts & actions combined with neutral or undetermined ones at least match the bad/evil/unjust ones; who a reasonable person without relatively severe moral or psychological failings is unable to want to see succeed if the story were about real events, or desire that the actions that they have taken actually took place. Who at no point in time a reasonable person would be tempted to throw the book at the wall shouting 'What a POS. Just a garbage person. Pretty much all throughout the story. And B is the inverse of the above. No need to serious post about this. But if anyone does only to say that 'good', 'virtuous', 'just', 'bad', 'unjust', and 'reasonable' person are all subjective, c'mon... Open Source Idiom posted:Pretty sure I heard a little Elvis slip into Austin Butler's performance, made me laugh. I'll find out soon enough but hope he isn't just the terrible pirate dude from GoT.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 15:52
|
|
|
Red Rox posted:I have seen, my brothers, and it was glorious. I have seen it too in IMAX and yes there are some changes from the book or characters that do not appear but it is a movie adaptation not a literal re-telling of the book it was definitely an experience like no movie I have seen before 9/10
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 15:52
|
|
|
Oh yeah, the visuals -- and, even better, the sound -- were loving glorious.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 15:55
|
|
|
I am kind of miffed I saw the extended trailer before the movie. It was easily my favorite scene in the movie, and in IMAX it felt like you were loving there.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 15:59
|
|
|
BlankSystemDaemon posted:The Fenrings speak in a humming language, in the books. This was one of my favorite little reveals in the book, because for the whole first part of their appearance it seems like Herbert is giving them a goofy speech mannerism just for funsies.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 16:45
|
|
|
Things I loved -Paul eTrades riding the mighty sand worm. loving badass! -Lots of scenes of spice harvesters getting hosed up by Freemans -Javier Bedouin goin apeshit and yelling "IT IS WRITTEN!" every time Paul did literally anything Things I didn't love -I wish both these movies had endings, they both end with Timothee Chalamet about to do something cool then the credits hit -Bad Drax getting neck stabbed by Good Thanos felt like an anticlimactic death for such a brutal character -If everyone's got laser guns that can slice a spaceship in half from 10 miles away why do they need to fight up close?
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 16:53
|
|
|
smoobles posted:-If everyone's got laser guns that can slice a spaceship in half from 10 miles away why do they need to fight up close? Lost in the adaption from the book: if you shoot a laser at a shield both sides explode.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 16:57
|
|
|
smoobles posted:-If everyone's got laser guns that can slice a spaceship in half from 10 miles away why do they need to fight up close?[/spoiler] They don't get into this in the movies, but in the books if a laser hits a shield, it sets off a nuclear explosion on one or both sides of the explosion. Aside from the unpredictability, this would look to any outside observer as though you fired off a nuke, which is mega-turbo forbidden, so you only use lasguns when you know for a fact that your target doesn't have a shield. Harvesters are unshielded because shields attract worms, so Fremen can use lasguns against them. Really it's just that Herbert wanted most of the fighting in the universe to take place up close in service of the medieval setting, and in order to avoid the technological arms race central to so many sci-fi stories, so he came up with this justification.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 17:01
|
|
|
I’ll start by saying I have not read the books. I thought it was a very enjoyable film. But the pacing felt much tighter in Part 1 - I feel like it took about an hour to actually really get going, but by that time it felt like the rollercoaster ride starts for real and it moves quite well. Maybe Part 1 had more visual variety and more interesting world building - it was cool to see more fremen stuff and the Harkonnen planet, but, yeah, I dunno, I felt like the first movie just took you through different sets more smoothly, and the use of music also felt much more creepy, mysterious and “original” than here. The action made up for it, and the new characters were great. Although - Christopher Walken as the Emperor - I had to stop myself from cracking up when he started talking because he’s still using the loving silly Christopher Walken voice. I don’t think that was cast well… Everyone had great performances, including Timmy, but for some reason I didn’t fully buy into some of his character development. His change of heart and transformation in the film seems very abrupt. I’m not sure how to use spoilers, but I think it’s because he does the thing, uses the blue thing, and that transforms him, but…yeah I dunno it felt like the transformation was ridiculously abrupt. Also I am really confused on the last battle scene - how the hell do I use spoilers lol
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 17:02
|
|
|
Philthy posted:I am kind of miffed I saw the extended trailer before the movie. It was easily my favorite scene in the movie, and in IMAX it felt like you were loving there. get rekt animailures, humans stay winning
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 17:02
|
|
|
killaer posted:how the hell do I use spoilers lol [spoiler]like this[/ spoiler] (remove the new line)
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 17:05
|
|
|
My wife, who also has not read the books, was also most confused by Paul's sudden transformation after he drinks the Water of Life. His line about seeing a narrow path through the future whereby the Atreides survive and defeat the Harkonnens is the explanation given, and I think it really is the key to understanding his decisions from that point on: at that moment he realizes he can either take advantage of the Fremen fundamentalists or die, and without getting into what happens in the sequels, his desire for revenge against the Harkonnens is so strong that he sees it as a price worth paying. It's a really subdued scene, though, so its importance isn't necessarily telegraphed. If I remember correctly, the first book places much less emphasis on Paul's reservations about leveraging the Fremen for the Atreides cause. The problem is that the movie is putting themes from the sequels into the first book, but Paul's decisions in the first book aren't guided by those themes so it's a little confusing. I think Dennis was trying to convey that Paul falls prey to his desire for revenge, even though he knows it will unleash a holy war in his name that will kill billions of people. In the movie, from the moment Paul drinks the Water of Life, he's basically a bad guy, as reflected in how Chani perceives him.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 17:22
|
|
|
Cognac McCarthy posted:My wife, who also has not read the books, was also most confused by Paul's sudden transformation after he drinks the Water of Life. His line about seeing a narrow path through the future whereby the Atreides survive and defeat the Harkonnens is the explanation given, and I think it really is the key to understanding his decisions from that point on: at that moment he realizes he can either take advantage of the Fremen fundamentalists or die, and without getting into what happens in the sequels, his desire for revenge against the Harkonnens is so strong that he sees it as a price worth paying. It's a really subdued scene, though, so its importance isn't necessarily telegraphed. Right, I can see that. But it just feels like some intense whiplash. In one scene he’s telling Chani that he will luv her 4evr and he wants to be one of the fremen, after arguing with literally everyone around him and saying he doesn’t want to be the messiah and in the next scene he drinks blue worm cum and becomes space hitler, totally mogging all the fremen elders and taking a dump on their customs - which, I guess makes sense because the space cum gives him the power to see all pasts and futures?? I also wondered why they didn’t nuke the emperor and instead nuked some cliffs next to them to make a sandstorm??? But I guess it’s because Paul wanted him alive. It would be kinda metal to just nuke them right in the kisser Idk, I felt like the films set up this inner conflict for so long, but the space cum just kinda flattened any meaningful resolution or internal conflict?
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 17:32
|
|
|
I’m about to watch it a second time on IMAX (in German) after seeing it on a normal screen in English. Just from comparing the extended Worm scene on IMAX two weeks ago, I think that this is 200% a movie that really, really benefits from the improved sound system. killaer posted:Also I am really confused on the last battle scene - how the hell do I use spoilers lol
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 17:34
|
|
|
killaer posted:Right, I can see that. But it just feels like some intense whiplash. In one scene he’s telling Chani that he will luv her 4evr and he wants to be one of the fremen, after arguing with literally everyone around him and saying he doesn’t want to be the messiah and in the next scene he drinks blue worm cum and becomes space hitler, totally mogging all the fremen elders and taking a dump on their customs - which, I guess makes sense because the space cum gives him the power to see all pasts and futures?? His sudden decision to drink the Water of Life is definitely a little under explained. Once he does it though, I think his actions from that point on are at least consistent. quote:I also wondered why they didn’t nuke the emperor and instead nuked some cliffs next to them to make a sandstorm??? But I guess it’s because Paul wanted him alive. It would be kinda metal to just nuke them right in the kisser He needs the emperor alive so he can supplant him as peacefully as possible and marry Irulan. I think he hopes the other houses will accept his rule, and it's only when they refuse to do so that the holy war becomes truly inevitable. If he had killed everyone with nukes there's no chance anyone would have accepted him as ruler.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 17:43
|
|
|
killaer posted:I also wondered why they didn’t nuke the emperor and instead nuked some cliffs next to them to make a sandstorm??? But I guess it’s because Paul wanted him alive. It would be kinda metal to just nuke them right in the kisser There was space for it, so I don't know why there wasn't a line but using atomics on human targets is basically the worst of all crimes in the eyes of the house of the Landsraad, but Paul didn't nuke people, he nuked landscape, so the Atreides wouldn't take heat for it. But they're getting jihaded anyways so 
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 17:44
|
|
|
So does Part 3 being made depend on how well Part 2 does? We need to wrap up this story, I don't have time to read a book.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 17:48
|
|
|
smoobles posted:So does Part 3 being made depend on how well Part 2 does? We need to wrap up this story, I don't have time to read a book. Dune Messiah--book 2, which would be the third movie--is more of a novella, it is very short. I doubt an audiobook version would be much longer than one of these films edit: one version I looked up says it is a 9 hour audiobook which seems way too long to me, I feel like I read that book in like 3 hours but ymmv
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 17:51
|
|
|
smoobles posted:So does Part 3 being made depend on how well Part 2 does? We need to wrap up this story, I don't have time to read a book. In the sense that any sequel is dependent on the success of it's predecessor, yes. I don't think we're getting any further Madames Web or Morbiae. But Messiah is almost definitely happening. 2UNC isn't very likely to see a box office collapse and it's already doing great.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 17:52
|
|
|
Turpitude posted:Dune Messiah--book 2, which would be the third movie--is more of a novella, it is very short. I doubt an audiobook version would be much longer than one of these films It's 1/3 of Dune.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 17:54
|
|
|
so how does this work? the prophecy isn't real. it was the creation of the bene gesserit to help maintain power on a generational timeline on a galactic scale. all of it, from head to toe. it was product of imagination. however, in the cave scene, where he walks in to prove he's the messiah, he's able to read a few of the attendees minds and what not. they're so shocked that they fully convert. he's also constantly talking to alia. if the prophecy is completely made up, there can be no such omnipotent character. there should be no one who can see all of the past and all of the future. yet, he telepaths in, can see the past, and can see the future. it's been a looooooooong time since i read the books, so maybe i'm missing something fundamental. but how do i reconcile this?
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 17:55
|
|
|
Went to the double bill last night at the BFI IMAX - Part 1 was only in IMAX later but the expanded ratio scenes still looked massive compared to a LieMAX, just a bit at the top and bottom was missing. Then it was back in for Part 2 on 15/70 at midnight - but also immediately after the IMAX intro started, the projector stopped! We were wondering if we were going to get the digital version instead, but the projectionist was able to get it running again after 10 minutes. But then on to the film - some thoughts: immediately, we had the Sardaukar voice back which was one of my favourite bits from Part 1, and also another voiceover from a female character who we hardly see in the film until the very end and who is perhaps being held back for the next installment. I wasn't expecting Anya Taylor Joy to have much of a role but would have been nice to see her in a couple more scenes. No Thufir and whoever Tim Blake Nelson - the most I saw of Stephen McKinley Henderson was in the Civil War trailer. They were mentioned in the 'special thanks to' credits. Music was fantastic, once again. I'm still humming that love theme. I was hoping they'd get someone to cameo as that black market harvester pilot. Lots more humour from the start, mainly from Stilgar, but I think Bardem still sold the religious fanaticism of his character when needed. The Harkonnen troops floating up the side of that rock formation was so cool. Ornithopter minigunner mini boss fight There were two Irish lads sat next to me who'd flown over for the midnight screening, with 6am flights back - they were getting stressed about missing their flight what with the technical issues. The look of Salusa Secundus was so cool - the way that black sun drowned all colour, and the fireworks that looked like exploding jellyfish or was reminiscent of Under the Skin. The draining of bodies - both the dead Harkonnens and Jamis was suitably disturbing, made me a bit queasy. The pacing felt a bit off - it felt like it took ages to see the Baron and Feyd-Rautha, and I never quite felt I knew how far along we were in the narrative - this may change on a second viewing as I felt the same about Part 1, where I spent the last half hour wondering if it was about to end And when that ending does come out feels rather abrupt - perhaps another scene showing Paul fully embracing his messianic potential, or marrying Irulan was needed before the final shot of Chani.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 18:00
|
|
|
\IIRC in the books the prophecy is real, the made up part is the details of the local religions the bene gesserits manipulate to line up with how they want the prophecy to go and to make it easy for any bene gesserit to infiltrate or get one well with a local population if they get stuck somewhere
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 18:01
|
|
|
Looking forward to D U N 3
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 18:09
|
|
|
DTurtle posted:I’m about to watch it a second time on IMAX I'd like to remind you that I hate you. 6 more dreadful hours for this chump.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 18:10
|
|
|
Ok also just got out of a second screening this afternoon at the BFI IMAX, and they had the same problem with the IMAX countdown attached at the start of the print - we were warned the projector would stop and need to be restarted but it seems like they weren't able to do that, so we got (unannounced) the IMAX laser version instead - and people with tickets to the other screenings today were warned they'd be getting the same. Aside from that, I liked the movie more the second time - the pacing felt better though still not perfect, the emotional moments Paul and Chani falling in love, Gurney's return ("young pup! young pup!) and Chani leaving for the desert hit me more, and I was also able to take in the visual spectacle a bit more instead of worrying about missing something. Austin Butler was really good in this, pretty much unrecognisable compared to his Elvis performance. I saw someone mentioned Wonka - the guy who did the IMAX intro and safety warning joked about welcoming us to the Glasgow Willy Wonka Experience which got a laugh.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 18:23
|
|
|
Why do the fremen burn all of the harkonnen and sardaukar bodies after they win the battle? Uhhhm aren’t they all about conserving water or whatever? Seems like that’s like a couple of cubic fucktons of water they wasted
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 18:24
|
|
|
abelwingnut posted:so how does this work? The BGs manipulate cultures to implant their own ideologies and prophecies, yes. And the coming of the Mahdi wasn't really a prophecy, it was a manipulation of existing savior prophecies to prepare the Fremen to shelter a BG and maybe even accept a Kwisatz Haderach someday. BUT, the plan is based on something that they know is technically possible, given both the BGs themselves can look into past-life memory, and the spice can induce visions - it's the basis of Guild navigation. There are even implied to be other drugs that can do similar if less drastic things than the spice, as the first book mentions it as one of an indeterminate plural number of "awareness spectrum narcotics." So there's stuff there for them to have based it all upon, setting stuff up to capitalize on their grand scheme working.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 18:25
|
|
|
Blood Boils posted:The bene gesserit are themselves religious fundamentalists! They have incredible faith in the necessity of creating the Perfect Man Fundamentalism isn't really about how much faith you have; it's about how strictly you adhere to tenets and traditions. While the latter often follows from the former, it's not always the case. For example, I'd argue that many Republican politicians are strict fundamentalists, but I'd also question their faith--Ted Cruz wants abortion outlawed not because of his deep faith in Christ and his promise of redemption but because he wants to exercise control over people. Neo Rasa posted:\IIRC in the books the prophecy is real, the made up part is the details of the local religions the bene gesserits manipulate to line up with how they want the prophecy to go and to make it easy for any bene gesserit to infiltrate or get one well with a local population if they get stuck somewhere We're conflating two "prophecies" here I think. The Lisan al Gaib messiah prophecy is a construct of the Bene Gesserit and their Missionaria Protectiva for the reasons you mention. It's all a put-on, though it's rooted in "real" religions like Zensunni mysticism and Orange Catholicism. The Bene Gesserit also have a genuine prophecy in that they will one day breed the Kwisatz Haderach. They actually believe this, Paul is a product of that breeding, and depending on when you ask him, is the Kwisatz Haderach or is something even worse. So to answer abelwingnut's question, it works like this: The parts about Paul being a messiah are the products of a made-up prophecy, but he does become a genuine superhero after drinking the Water of Life. He's not reading that guy's mind. After drinking the Water, he possesses all the memories of every Reverend Mother, so he is literally recalling memories about that dude's mother. This is also how he discovers the Baron is his grandfather. Anyway, I really loved the movie. I have mixed feelings on some of the changes, but those mixed feelings end up neutral and don't detract from my overall enjoyment of the film. For example, I don't really like how the movie condenses what's a years long campaign in the novel into a couple months of time, but I love all the scenes where Jessica is talking to Alia in her womb and weirding everyone out with it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 18:26
|
|
|
smoobles posted:So does Part 3 being made depend on how well Part 2 does? We need to wrap up this story, I don't have time to read a book. However Denis Villeneuve has said that he might first film something else before starting on it, just to have a small break from Dune. Scags McDouglas posted:I'd like to remind you that I hate you. 6 more dreadful hours for this chump. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 18:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 18:48 |
|
|
killaer posted:Idk, I felt like the films set up this inner conflict for so long, but the space cum just kinda flattened any meaningful resolution or internal conflict? That's kinda how it is in the book as well, Herbert shoves all these pieces into place in the last third for the climax in a way that feels less like the inevitable acceleration of fate and more like he just wanted to hurry up and finish.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2024 18:27
|
|