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cock hero flux posted:the issue has always been that people assume that exclusion is done as gatekeeping or elitism rather than simple categorization, and act defensively when told that a game that they like does not qualify I think the real issue is that people find pedants to be weird and annoying, and if you're going out of your way to tell someone that "actually, you need to stop calling this game this term," you probably are weird and annoying.
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Mar 2, 2024 18:11
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"pedant" is just a word for when you're mad that someone is right
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Mar 2, 2024 18:14
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Sounds like a line an annoying person would feel extremely proud about.
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Mar 2, 2024 18:17
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Quixzlizx posted:Sounds like a line an annoying person would feel extremely proud about. Sounds like an anti-intellectual patting themselves on the back.
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Mar 2, 2024 18:18
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actually rereading it it mentions the id game and that is pretty much dead in modern roguelikes. so that part is dated. I would probably take it out
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Mar 2, 2024 18:18
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Seriously, if one person in a room of 100 said that out loud, I bet the other 99 people would all simultaneously think, "I bet that guy is fun at parties."
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Mar 2, 2024 18:19
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Quixzlizx posted:Seriously, if one person in a room of 100 said that out loud, I bet the other 99 people would all simultaneously think, "I bet that guy is fun at parties." 
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Mar 2, 2024 18:20
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nrook posted:actually rereading it it mentions the id game and that is pretty much dead in modern roguelikes. so that part is dated. I would probably take it out Shiren is once again the modern paragon of Roguelike design, maintaining the Old Ways against the tide of modern barbarism.
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Mar 2, 2024 18:51
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Quixzlizx posted:I think the real issue is that people find pedants to be weird and annoying, and if you're going out of your way to tell someone that "actually, you need to stop calling this game this term," you probably are weird and annoying. yeah it's not really pedantic to say that two largely unrelated things should not be in the same category of thing. Roguelike is in a weird place because I can't think of another genre that really has this problem. If I said "FTL is a shooter", would you consider it pedantic to respond with "no, that's wrong"? EDIT: on the subject of the ID game, I wish DCSS would just bite the bullet and can it entirely at this point. There's something to be said for the ID game as an ongoing concern that you have to play around, but in its current state in DCSS the only things you have to ID are scrolls and potions and almost all of the negative or interesting ones are gone already, so it's just this sad vestigial thing that makes you waste a couple of random scrolls or potions early on in any given run cock hero flux fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Mar 2, 2024 |
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Mar 2, 2024 19:09
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Quixzlizx posted:Seriously, if one person in a room of 100 said that out loud, I bet the other 99 people would all simultaneously think, "I bet that guy is fun at parties." I bet this guy is fun at parties
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Mar 2, 2024 19:10
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Snake Maze posted:Shiren is once again the modern paragon of Roguelike design, maintaining the Old Ways against the tide of modern barbarism. i just beat the sumo dungeon and getting porked up on onigiris is really OP in shiren it turns out
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Mar 2, 2024 19:21
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cock hero flux posted:yeah it's not really pedantic to say that two largely unrelated things should not be in the same category of thing. Roguelike is in a weird place because I can't think of another genre that really has this problem. If I said "FTL is a shooter", would you consider it pedantic to respond with "no, that's wrong"? The issue is that most people are not emotionally or intellectually invested in the "Berlin Interpretation," or even know it exists. So when you tell someone that a game isn't a roguelike based on that, it only matters to you, not them. And there's no reason for it to matter to them, it's just some nerds who got together and declared something. It would be like a Catholic getting mad when Protestants/non-Christians don't view the Council of Nicaea as objective truth. If someone tells me Nickelback is their favorite "heavy metal" band, I'm just going to inwardly cringe instead of taking out a flowchart of the evolution of rock and metal genres.
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Mar 2, 2024 19:22
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nrook's post about the Berlin interpretation being descriptive makes a lot of sense to me. I mean it's called the Berlin interpretation, not the Berlin limitation.cock hero flux posted:yeah it's not really pedantic to say that two largely unrelated things should not be in the same category of thing. Roguelike is in a weird place because I can't think of another genre that really has this problem. If I said "FTL is a shooter", would you consider it pedantic to respond with "no, that's wrong"? Rogue likes seem to have the immersive sim problem, where the qualifying attributes cannot be reduced to one mechanical or thematic dimension. First person shooter is obvious, because it's first person and you shoot. Meanwhile, like immersive Sims, the qualities of a roguelike are more abstract and have a lot of varying mechanics. The closest I've ever been able to come to thinking of an alternate genre name for traditional roguelikes is "single player virtual TRPG", which is a bit of a mouthful and not exactly catchy. That's what I see as separating those old school rogue likes from the modern lite variants though: something like Nethack is meant to simulate something like dungeons & dragons, with all kinds of tangential and niche actions considered in the rule set, meanwhile something like slay the spire is more similar to a streamlined strategy board game.
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Mar 2, 2024 19:22
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Quixzlizx posted:The issue is that most people are not emotionally or intellectually invested in the "Berlin Interpretation," or even know it exists. So when you tell someone that a game isn't a roguelike based on that, it only matters to you, not them. And there's no reason for it to matter to them, it's just some nerds who got together and declared something. It would be like a Catholic getting mad when Protestants/non-Christians don't view the Council of Nicaea as objective truth. Dude This is a thread for discussing roguelikes, It is not that crazy to discuss what makes it a genre. The Berlin interpretation is a useful document for understanding the perspective of the initial close followers of the genre, and we can use it as a whetstone to sharpen our own understanding of it. I don't see you making any actual points about the contents of the Berlin interpretation, you're just trying to bully people by calling them nerds for bringing it up. Look around you, we're all nerds, let's just discuss some nerd poo poo
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Mar 2, 2024 19:25
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Quixzlizx posted:The issue is that most people are not emotionally or intellectually invested in the "Berlin Interpretation," or even know it exists. So when you tell someone that a game isn't a roguelike based on that, it only matters to you, not them. And there's no reason for it to matter to them, it's just some nerds who got together and declared something. It would be like a Catholic getting mad when Protestants/non-Christians don't view the Council of Nicaea as objective truth. I don't really care about the berlin interpretation. The berlin interpretation is just an attempt at strictly codifying the genre as a way of mitigating this problem. I think it was a bit misguided and I don't necessarily agree with all of its tenets. That's not the point. The point is: if someone says "my favourite heavy metal band is nickelback" I don't need a flowchart to respond with "nickelback isn't a heavy metal band". It's very obviously not one. Genres are, to a certain extent, intuitive constructs. They don't work as well if they're strictly codified, because strict genre definitions always result in weird edge cases(ie: is Portal an FPS? well, maybe). They're useful tools for discussion and categorization, that's all. And they stop being useful when things that do not intuitively fit are shoehorned into them.
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Mar 2, 2024 19:29
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cock hero flux posted:
Intellectually I understand that most dungeon crawl Stone soup players interact with it as something of a competitive online score attack game, so refining it to be more balanced in that direction makes sense, but as somebody who just played it for my own offline adventures It always just seemed like they were sanding off any interesting edge from the game
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Mar 2, 2024 19:33
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Tea Party Crasher posted:Dude This is a thread for discussing roguelikes, It is not that crazy to discuss what makes it a genre. The Berlin interpretation is a useful document for understanding the perspective of the initial close followers of the genre, and we can use it as a whetstone to sharpen our own understanding of it. I don't see you making any actual points about the contents of the Berlin interpretation, you're just trying to bully people by calling them nerds for bringing it up. Look around you, we're all nerds, let's just discuss some nerd poo poo The post I initially responded to was "the issue has always been that people assume that exclusion is done as gatekeeping or elitism rather than simple categorization, and act defensively when told that a game that they like does not qualify," which was specifically psycho-analyzing the people outside of this thread, which is the only reason why I responded the way I did. This discussion dominates this thread for 5 out of every 10 pages, and I've never popped in to say "why are you nerds in the roguelike thread still arguing about roguelikes?" The only part of that discussion that annoys me is when people want deckbuilder (or whatever) discussion banned from this thread. They should probably just create a "Traditional Roguelikes" thread instead of tilting at windmills. cock hero flux posted:I don't really care about the berlin interpretation. The berlin interpretation is just an attempt at strictly codifying the genre as a way of mitigating this problem. I think it was a bit misguided and I don't necessarily agree with all of its tenets. That's not the point. The point is: if someone says "my favourite heavy metal band is nickelback" I don't need a flowchart to respond with "nickelback isn't a heavy metal band". It's very obviously not one. Genres are, to a certain extent, intuitive constructs. They don't work as well if they're strictly codified, because strict genre definitions always result in weird edge cases(ie: is Portal an FPS? well, maybe). They're useful tools for discussion and categorization, that's all. And they stop being useful when things that do not intuitively fit are shoehorned into them. That was kind of my original point when I replied to your OP. If you got into a discussion with an acquaintance about music, and they were happily telling you about how Nickelback is their favorite heavy metal band, if your reply was "Nickelback isn't a heavy metal band," that would be extremely off-putting and condescending to most people. Quixzlizx fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Mar 2, 2024 |
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Mar 2, 2024 19:35
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Quixzlizx posted:The only part of that discussion that annoys me is when people want deckbuilder (or whatever) discussion banned from this thread. They should probably just create a "Traditional Roguelikes" thread instead of tilting at windmills. That's an interesting idea. What kind of games do you think would fit in the "Traditional Roguelike" thread? Are there any traits that they would have in common?
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Mar 2, 2024 19:47
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Snake Maze posted:That's an interesting idea. What kind of games do you think would fit in the "Traditional Roguelike" thread? Are there any traits that they would have in common? Whatever games the bitter OP finds acceptable, assuming they get IK privileges and/or mod support.
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Mar 2, 2024 19:49
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I'm confused by your nickelback example. Is your point That it's rude to tell people You see genre differently from them? Like if I told you that Bob Dylan was my favorite rap artist, you would just nod your head and go Yes tea party crasher that's wonderful?
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Mar 2, 2024 19:51
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Snake Maze posted:That's an interesting idea. What kind of games do you think would fit in the "Traditional Roguelike" thread? Are there any traits that they would have in common? Lol
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Mar 2, 2024 19:51
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Tea Party Crasher posted:First person shooter is obvious, because it's first person and you shoot. my favorite first person shooter, skyrim
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Mar 2, 2024 20:05
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Countblanc posted:my favorite first person shooter, skyrim Skyrim is actually an arena movement shooter, because there are arenas and you move
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Mar 2, 2024 20:08
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Half-Life 2 is a simulator because it's simulating you being Gordon Freeman.
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Mar 2, 2024 20:10
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Tea Party Crasher posted:The closest I've ever been able to come to thinking of an alternate genre name for traditional roguelikes is "single player virtual TRPG", which is a bit of a mouthful and not exactly catchy. "Procedural Death Labyrinth" is the one I heard that I thought worked rather well.
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Mar 2, 2024 20:10
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:"Procedural Death Labyrinth" is the one I heard that I thought worked rather well. if I ever re register that's gonna be my username
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Mar 2, 2024 20:12
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I do think the idea of banning specific subgenres from the thread is funny, the RPG thread has people regularly talk about everything from Morrowind to Tales of to Zelda games to even some games that would probably be closer to visual novels and no one thinks it's weird. Funnily enough I think people were talking about Shiren in there a while back. But at the same time I don't think refining language is bad at all and if nothing else it's interesting to learn about the evolution of the genre.Tea Party Crasher posted:Skyrim is actually an arena movement shooter, because there are arenas and you move this reminds me of how games like bloodline champions or windjammers are much closer to "Multiplayer Online Battle Arena" than the vast majority of games which we collectively understand to be MOBAs
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Mar 2, 2024 20:14
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I like good pedantry but I think with this latest you're basically a dude or a Walter E: this isn't ADOM, there are rules! bobthenameless fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Mar 2, 2024 |
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Mar 2, 2024 20:17
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Tea Party Crasher posted:I'm confused by your nickelback example. Is your point That it's rude to tell people You see genre differently from them? That isn't quite the same thing, since you're in the "elitist minority" of people who don't think Rogue Legacy is a roguelike, just like I'm probably in the elitist minority of people who don't think Nickelback is a heavy metal band. But assuming you aren't someone who just landed from Mars who's just putting together word salad, and assuming I'm trying not to be rude in this scenario, after boggling for a few seconds, I would probably ask you for some more of your favorite rap bands to see if the bit holds together, and maybe how you were introduced to "rap music." I probably wouldn't bother arguing about it with you since there are zero stakes involved other than my desire to be right about something (pedantry), and I doubt I'd convince you of anything, anyway. Responding "That doesn't make any sense, Bob Dylan isn't a rap artist," would probably make you unhappy if you were being genuine and not trolling. In a different scenario, responding "That doesn't make any sense, the earth isn't flat," would also make someone unhappy, but at least I would be much closer to objectively correct in that case, and there ARE significant stakes involved if enough people start holding that belief. Although, I would probably be just as unproductive in convincing that person, regardless of how rude or not rude I'm being. In the end, this isn't even at the level of "you're doing your hobby wrong," it's "you're describing your hobby wrong." Quixzlizx fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Mar 2, 2024 |
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Mar 2, 2024 20:24
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For someone who makes a lot of points about What would or wouldn't be rude, You are quite hostile about me asking a question to better understand what your point is
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Mar 2, 2024 20:29
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I totally believe that you don't want it agitate people or argue over anything with low stakes lol
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Mar 2, 2024 20:32
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Anyway this seems to be making GBS threads up the thread so I'm curious if anybody has experience with the game I'm considering getting has anyone in the thread played Armoured Commander II? It came up in a list of controller accessible roguelikes and I'm intrigued by the graphics.
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Mar 2, 2024 20:35
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Those two posts are pretty ironic, considering: 1. My most recent reply wasn't rude at all, I actually went out of my way to calmly respond to your stupid gotcha 2. I never claimed I wasn't trying to be rude to you I was originally mocking a post about someone who seemed irritated that people would be irritated about being "corrected" over something with absolutely no stakes to the person being corrected.
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Mar 2, 2024 20:37
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Tea Party Crasher posted:
Actually, yeah. It's a fun little game, although it can be a bit clunky and I don't know how much staying power it'll have for you. I think it maybe tries a little too hard for realism for its own good, but I still enjoyed it a fair bit, and from what I can see the dev still updates it fairly regularly.
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Mar 2, 2024 20:39
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Genre debates are dumb. The only time you even need to refer to genre is to describe how a game plays to someone who is unfamiliar with it or to express how it differs from its peers. I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread is genre literate enough to infer what is meant, and for this particular community I think it always turns into a weird circular thing where minutia gets dragged out to no real benefit. And no matter what anyone here thinks, genre grows solidified by the popular conception of that genre. Like I think roguelite is a stupid term, but it doesn't really matter what I think because it has been adopted and is considered suitable enough to describe a broad range of games with permadeath and randomized run variables, more often than not of a side scrolling or character action focus. And traditional rl games are far less common than they once were, anyhow. The field evolved to include all these varied descendants with only the random and permadeath traits to link them back to the original games. These things just evolve organically and whatever we call stuff today won't matter in five years.
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Mar 2, 2024 20:39
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Feel free to make a Traditional Roguelikes thread if people want to spin off a berlin interpretation thread. Just remember to only use ASCII characters. (For real, ToME and DCSS both had a dedicated and pretty thriving thread here for the better part of a decade I think).
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Mar 2, 2024 20:39
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Quixzlizx posted:Those two posts are pretty ironic, considering: you know for someone who complains so much about pedantry you don't seem like you'd be much fun at parties, either
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Mar 2, 2024 20:42
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cock hero flux posted:you know for someone who complains so much about pedantry you don't seem like you'd be much fun at parties, either I get it all out in here so I don't feel the need to explain how StS's shops are actually modal at parties.
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Mar 2, 2024 20:46
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Falcon2001 posted:Feel free to make a Traditional Roguelikes thread if people want to spin off a berlin interpretation thread. Just remember to only use ASCII characters. I don't see much posting in the dungeon crawl Stone soup thread, and that's probably because of people who start complaining about how it's not like it used to be
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Mar 2, 2024 20:52
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another achra patchquote:Added Kuga, Death power, +50 max life per level, apply Plague to a nearby enemy on kill, repeat 6 times on divine intervention
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Mar 2, 2024 20:57
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