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The Artificial Kid posted:In your view are Americans, on balance, crying out for socialism that the Democratic Party simply refuses to deliver?
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Mar 3, 2024 11:28
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Eiba posted:I wouldn't describe that situation as "great". I feel you're projecting an enthusiasm on me that I very much do not poses. I am explicitly asking for a logical and ethical reason to not vote for Biden because I truly do not want to vote for him. But no logical or ethical argument has been remotely convincing so far. (I again would invite you to engage with this subject in the appropriate thread because your position has not been well represented there.) If the democrats take defeat as an excuse to pursue fascism rather than taking a different tack and suggesting that maybe, just maybe, America shouldn't be a socially-regressive lassiez-faire dystopia where losing your job can be a death sentence - trying to appeal to those disengaged leftists, rather than actual avowed nativist fascists who will always vote for the furthest right option - this tells you more about them than any leftist they're ignoring
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Mar 3, 2024 11:35
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dadrips posted:Believe it or not, as a random internet poster I don't actually know what Americans want in aggregate. I can guess that the ones with diabetes want insulin to be affordable though, like it is in literally every other country
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Mar 3, 2024 11:54
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dadrips posted:A logical and factual reason to not vote for Biden is his ongoing endorsement of Israeli genocide. But that's not logical, because not voting for him isn't going to make that any better, and will likely make it worse
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Mar 3, 2024 11:54
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I don’t understand how you can not vote for Biden and simply assume you will get another chance. If Trump wins there are no more votes. You get a full theocracy and dictatorship. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 3, 2024 12:00
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The Artificial Kid posted:Has Biden done nothing about insulin? Bucky Fullminster posted:But that's not logical, because not voting for him isn't going to make that any better, and will likely make it worse Comstar posted:I don’t understand how you can not vote for Biden and simply assume you will get another chance. Ok, and the supposed last best hope for democracy is someone who is decomposing before our very eyes while offering decline at a slightly attenuated rate with no hope of relief. Great offer, let's see how it stacks up against the alternative! "No more votes" is a laugh as well because voting is a farce to begin with given the total dearth of choice. A choice between two types of decline does not a democracy make, if you want your country to be worth saving via the ballot box then make it worth saving. dadrips fucked around with this message at 12:22 on Mar 3, 2024 |
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Mar 3, 2024 12:19
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Comstar posted:I don’t understand how you can not vote for Biden and simply assume you will get another chance. This is sky is falling doomerism. If Trump wins the 2028 election will proceed as normal. Just like the 2020 one did after the last time Trump won.
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Mar 3, 2024 12:33
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hooman posted:This is sky is falling doomerism. If Trump wins the 2028 election will proceed as normal. Just like the 2020 one did after the last time Trump won. It's also a position that doesn't make sense because every country has elections, people shuffling into a school every N years to pop a slip of paper into a box doesn't mean anything by itself. Russia has elections but I don't think anybody would describe it as democratic.
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Mar 3, 2024 12:37
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hooman posted:This is sky is falling doomerism. If Trump wins the 2028 election will proceed as normal. Just like the 2020 one did after the last time Trump won. I genuinely can't tell if this is deliberate irony. The 2020 election ended in a near-successful violent insurrection against the peaceful transfer of power.
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Mar 3, 2024 12:48
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The Artificial Kid posted:I genuinely can't tell if this is deliberate irony. No, it did not. It was a dumb riot where a Trump hyped a bunch of idiots into running into a building with no real idea of what they were trying to achieve (with the exception of some who clearly wanted to take hostages.. to achieve ???). I'm not arguing it was not a threat to the lives of congresspeople, but this was not going to overthrow democracy. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/exclusive-fbi-finds-scant-evidence-us-capitol-attack-was-coordinated-sources-2021-08-20/ If you want to talk about the overthrow of democracy, you'd be closer arguing that happened in Florida in 2000.
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Mar 3, 2024 13:02
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hooman posted:No, it did not. It was a dumb riot where a Trump hyped a bunch of idiots into running into a building with no real idea of what they were trying to achieve (with the exception of some who clearly wanted to take hostages.. to achieve ???). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Z3YBtzwmHk By the way the words you're looking for to fill the space held by those three question marks are "sufficient disruption of the peaceful transfer of power to allow Donald Trump and his remaining loyalists to foist their pre-prepared slates of false electors on the American people and secure permanent power for Trump".
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Mar 3, 2024 13:24
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hooman posted:No, it did not. It was a dumb riot where a Trump hyped a bunch of idiots into running into a building with no real idea of what they were trying to achieve (with the exception of some who clearly wanted to take hostages.. to achieve ???). I'm not arguing it was not a threat to the lives of congresspeople, but this was not going to overthrow democracy. The riot was only the most visible element of the coup attempt, as the last resort. They tried everything they could, and we were basically one Milley away from declaring martial law and calling all bets off. And it's not just "Trump" either. It's Steve Bannon, Peter Thiel, Erik Prince, Mike Flynn, Roger Stone, etc. The second they come back in to power they are going to begin dismantling all the protections that prevented them from doing it the last time. Bucky Fullminster fucked around with this message at 13:36 on Mar 3, 2024 |
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Mar 3, 2024 13:29
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Bucky Fullminster posted:The second they come back in to power they are going to begin dismantling all the protections that prevented them from doing it the last time. Because to do otherwise would imply they're okay with this almost inevitable slide into fascism, don't realise the stakes and are therefore incompetent and not up to the task, or - and here's a third option - maybe the stakes aren't that high in their view, and they don't feel it's worth throwing everything at the wall to get elected and decisively halt the march of the fascists?
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Mar 3, 2024 13:37
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The Artificial Kid posted:It wasn't an insurrection, just thousands of rioters attacking the capitol with a core of organised abductors, egged on by the loser of the election who told them to fight against the peaceful transfer of power. But not an insurrection. You actually think the dumb plan would have worked? Do you have that low a view of the resilience of the electoral system? Do you believe that if the Democrats did this exact thing it would work? That Joe Biden would suddenly be President for life? If so would you support the Democratic party having contingency plans to do the same if Trump wins? Because, if you truly believe that democracy is dead if Trump wins then at least it would be the Democrats in charge.
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Mar 3, 2024 13:42
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Rust Martialis posted:It's a Gaza protest, no more. Good for them for doing it. Sorry, you're right that "no" was too broad. They said they have no policy issues about unions with him. quote:In a statement shared first with NBC News after its executive board voted on the endorsement Wednesday night, the Washington union called Biden “an ally to workers over the last four years,” but suggested it is not confident in his ability to defeat likely GOP nominee Donald Trump in November. quote:“We need a nominee who can run and beat Trump to protect workers across this country and around the world,” the statement continued.
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Mar 3, 2024 13:44
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dadrips posted:Ok, and the supposed last best hope for democracy is someone who is decomposing before our very eyes while offering decline at a slightly attenuated rate with no hope of relief. Great offer, let's see how it stacks up against the alternative! The alternative is a dictatorship that results in a civil war. Trump has no way out from prison unless he wins. At which point he must go all out and never lose again, or go to prison for the rest of his unnatural life. quote:This is sky is falling doomerism. If Trump wins the 2028 election will proceed as normal. Just like the 2020 one did after the last time Trump won. There was 1 cop and 2 secret service between a mob and the Vice President. if the mob had gone to weapons or been able to capture and kill enough congresspeople (and they were one corridor away at one point), Trump was going to declared Martial Law and the Repubs in congress were willing to declare him King. Only an incompetent and failed Coup stopped it. They will try again, if they can.
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Mar 3, 2024 13:47
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hooman posted:You actually think the dumb plan would have worked? Do you have that low a view of the resilience of the electoral system? Do I think that violently invading the capitol with thousands of people, kidnapping the vice president and key senators and reps, loudly claiming that the disrupted certification process is a sign of a corrupt election with the backing of right wing media and MAGA house members as part of an elaborate conspiracy that had been hatched by Trump and his loyal cronies to arrange for their slates of pre-chosen false electors to be certified to replace real electors, again with the backing of right-wing media, MAGA state and federal legislators and, Trump hoped, Mike Pence and the Supreme Court...do I think the electoral system was potentially vulnerable to all of that? Yes. Obviously as things actually played out a few of the key events didn't go their way. Congress stood firm and finished their certification. Mike Pence did his job. The rioters were eventually quelled in spite of Trump successfully stymieing a timely force response. It absolutely could have gone the other way.
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Mar 3, 2024 13:58
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Comstar posted:There was 1 cop and 2 secret service between a mob and the Vice President. if the mob had gone to weapons or been able to capture and kill enough congresspeople (and they were one corridor away at one point), Trump was going to declared Martial Law and the Repubs in congress were willing to declare him King. And every member of the military and civilian administration would have simply agreed, just like if Joe Biden did the exact same thing. Or does this mysteriously not work if the Democrats do it? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 3, 2024 13:59
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hooman posted:And every member of the military and civilian administration would have simply agreed, just like if Joe Biden did the exact same thing. Of course then it sublimes right past insurrection and straight to none-dare-call-it-treason.
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Mar 3, 2024 14:01
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hooman posted:No, it did not. It was a dumb riot where a Trump hyped a bunch of idiots into running into a building with no real idea of what they were trying to achieve (with the exception of some who clearly wanted to take hostages.. to achieve ???). I'm not arguing it was not a threat to the lives of congresspeople, but this was not going to overthrow democracy. Horseshit. There was no legitimate reason for Trump to have had a rally that day and place other than to attempt to intimidate Congress from performing their constitutional duty. He incited a riot live on international TV and disingenuous fascist fucks are trying to tell us not to believe our lying eyes. Why are you telling us not to believe our lying eyes?
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Mar 3, 2024 14:03
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The Artificial Kid posted:Do I think that violently invading the capitol with thousands of people, kidnapping the vice president and key senators and reps, loudly claiming that the disrupted certification process is a sign of a corrupt election with the backing of right wing media and MAGA house members as part of an elaborate conspiracy that had been hatched by Trump and his loyal cronies to arrange for their slates of pre-chosen false electors to be certified to replace real electors, again with the backing of right-wing media, MAGA state and federal legislators and, Trump hoped, Mike Pence and the Supreme Court...do I think the electoral system was potentially vulnerable to all of that? Trump and his cronies are incompetent morons, but even if I accept your premise that the entirety of American democracy collapses and the US Military doesn't simply turn around and say "Nope". How about the other half of my post: Do you believe that if the Democrats did this exact thing it would work? That Joe Biden would suddenly be President for life? If so would you support the Democratic party having contingency plans to do the same if Trump wins? Because, if you truly believe that democracy is dead if Trump wins then at least it would be the Democrats in charge.
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Mar 3, 2024 14:03
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hooman posted:Trump and his cronies are incompetent morons, but even if I accept your premise that the entirety of American democracy collapses and the US Military doesn't simply turn around and say "Nope". Do I think if Joe Biden stood up on Jan 6 (after losing the election but he was ready to win the election and frankly he did win the election...by a LOT) and suddenly said "folks, I know that I've appealed to all of your senses of decency and sanity and said that we need to preserve democracy and order and return to sensible policy, but today I appear before you to say you have to fight like hell to make me your god emperor" if he would then have had an equal shot at becoming god emperor in the teeth of the right-wing media who for months bolstered Trump's FUD about a stolen election, essentially paving away for the mass hysteria of Trump's supporters? No I don't think that, I'm not an idiot. Viruses infect cells and disrupt their function. Do you think if cells wanted to they could infect viruses?! And anyway it's not a viral insurrection infecting that cell, it's just a riot of different RNAs and proteins hysterically doing stuff in the nucleus to accomplish ???.
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Mar 3, 2024 14:24
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Shut the gently caress up about voting for the lesser of two evils or not in this thread, post in the electoralism thread
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Mar 3, 2024 14:36
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Main Paineframe posted:If someone is crafting narratives to portray Biden as weak and unelectable, then they absolutely bear some responsibility for that. Yes, Biden's team is responsible for countering such attacks, but that doesn't mean the person who made those attacks isn't responsible for their own attacks. The biggest narrative haunting Biden right now is that he's too old to be an effective president:  There's very little that the average voter or SA forum poster can do to effect change in this narrative. It seems to me that this is a narrative that only Biden himself can change by improving his performance in his public appearances, as well as the frequency of those public appearances. If he is as strong behind closed as his handlers and other elected Democrats would have us believe, that shouldn't be a problem. The basement strategy of 2020 certainly isn't going to counteract this narrative, though.
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Mar 3, 2024 14:40
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Sorry, you're right that "no" was too broad. They said they have no policy issues about unions with him. The *only* concern they express, and the sole reason they support voting uncommitted in the press release is about Israel's ongoing assault on Gaza. quote:We have many members who are deeply impacted by the war. The best way to send this message for policy change is through a vote of “uncommitted” on the upcoming March 12 Washington primary. The press release is, start to finish, a Gaza genocide protest. I encourage others to read the entire article and not just selective quoting by those trying to promote their own agendas. https://ufcw3000.org/news/2024/2/29...ashington-state
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Mar 3, 2024 14:41
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dadrips posted:Gee, if the stakes are so high I sure hope the democratic party is putting their best candidate up for election with an uncompromising platform befitting the seriousness of the situation Or it could imply that they think a centrist incumbent who already beat him once is their best shot. Which I guess comes under the second option. I don't think the dems are acting with anything close to befitting the seriousness of the situation, no, and have been consistent about that in previous threads. I asked a while ago "ok but seriously who are they going to run", and was told it was a ridiculous question. hooman posted:Do you believe that if the Democrats did this exact thing it would work? Bloody liberals and their "decorum" again
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Mar 3, 2024 14:46
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hooman posted:And every member of the military and civilian administration would have simply agreed, just like if Joe Biden did the exact same thing.  You realize Trump's staff have explicitly stated they intend to fire all the people who said no to them last time? There are better ways to make a version of your argument if you arent just going for ragebait (e.g., "if the choice is between a democracy candidate and an anti-democracy candidate, then democracy has already failed, because you have no real choice"). This "trump: actually fine?" bullshit is just insulting to everyone with enough object permanence to remember back four whole years. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 3, 2024 14:51
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:This "trump: actually fine?" bullshit is just insulting to everyone with enough object permanence to remember back four whole years. Agreed, but on the other hand, that's a tall ask after all the time dilation due to The Escalator Ride and covid!
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Mar 3, 2024 14:59
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:
Do you have the object permanence to remember 8 years ago to the last time the sky was going to fall? Hieronymous Alloy posted:That is a fair comparison, but there are times when even jury nullification leads to a positive result (prevention of medical marijuana convictions, for example). (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 3, 2024 15:15
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hooman posted:If you want to talk about the overthrow of democracy, you'd be closer arguing that happened in Florida in 2000. Yep, allowing a selective recount of cherry-picked areas of a state effectively disenfranchises the other state voters. Somebody fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Mar 4, 2024 |
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Mar 3, 2024 15:29
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hooman posted:Do you have the object permanence to remember 8 years ago to the last time the sky was going to fall? How many hours a day do you spend making spreadsheets of people's ancient posts? Sorry I picked "fire apocalypse" instead of "mass plague" last time, boy is my face red, only a few million people died not everyone, that is definitely an actual counterargument you just made there You got me. I'm convinced. Let's spin the Trump Apocalypse wheel again and see what happens next time! This dude thinks we'll be fine! Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Mar 3, 2024 |
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Mar 3, 2024 15:32
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The modern Democratic party would never be able to establish an undemocratic regime. There isn't the political will, even if there was the far-right SCOTUS would block it. They may or may not block a Trumpian coup attempt. I've been thinking a lot about how the 2024 election. After reviewing lots of evidence, I'd handicap it Biden 10% chance of winning, Trump 90%. Biden is almost totally doomed, no precedent for a Democratic incumbent trailing so far. Thus I'm tempted to support the Nate Silver / Ezra Klein thesis of Biden dropping out, even if Kamala Harris is likely to be even weaker, there's a chance of another nominee chosen at convention. E.G. the Glengariff Group (Detroit News, WDIV-TV) poll that had Biden -8, Whitmer +4 vs Trump in the must-win state. Also, if Biden dropped out today, there'd be a decent chance a bunch of states to vote, especially with (mostly blue) states rushing to push back their primaries/caucuses. There'd be time in the late spring and summer to see some retail campaigning in the last voting states. This in mind, I put together a (not that accurate, rough guess) map based on state presidential primary/caucus deadlines and state rules to estimate which states would have no/poor/medium/good chances of holding open contests with late-entering candidates before the DNC. KEY: Colors represent chances of a late-entering Democratic presidential candidate entering after March 3rd getting on the ballot, usually by postponing the primaries/caucuses as late as possible. Gray = No real chance. Red = Chance only if state officials / state party acts & DNC re-allocates delegates in emergency fashion. Pink colors = Varying levels of emergency changes, usually state legislatures would need to act extremely fast to postpone contests. Poor chance. Yellow = Would require fast action by state / party officials, might barely be possible. Blue = Probably sufficient time without any changes to filing deadlines, but only if Biden drops out soon.  The south and midwest, being under Republican control, I'm assuming would never change primary rules just to suit Democrats. I tried to consider state legislative control / rules. I'm sure my map is considerably wrong, but I haven't seen anyone else take a shot at it. Personally, I see a silver lining to Biden dropping out - the states that vote last would get a lot of influence over the nominee for once. It'd be fun to see campaigning in Oregon, New Jersey, New Mexico.
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Mar 3, 2024 15:33
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dadrips posted:Believe it or not, as a random internet poster I don't actually know what Americans want in aggregate. I can guess that the ones with diabetes want insulin to be affordable though, like it is in literally every other country The price of insulin is capped to $35 for Americans with Medicare because the Dems controlled the Presidency and Congress in 2022. In order for the price to be to capped for Americans without Medicare, the Dems need to control the Presidency and Congress again (in the Senate the Dems need either 60 Senators to overcome a filibuster or 50 willing to eliminate the filibuster) That is, anyone who truly cares about the affordablity of insulin, should be voting blue.
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Mar 3, 2024 15:35
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hooman posted:Do you have the object permanence to remember 8 years ago to the last time the sky was going to fall? Yeah they tried to perform a coup after they lost the next election, and most people who aren't irony-poisoned consider this to be a bad thing!
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Mar 3, 2024 15:35
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I should add, in theory since state parties are private organizations, if the DNC changed the rules for ALL states, it would be logistically difficult but maybe possible to hold late contests in all 50 states. But they'd have to be organized by the party in most states, like the Iowa primary.
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Mar 3, 2024 15:38
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:How many hours a day do you spend making spreadsheets of people's ancient posts? I literally searched for "faithless elector" and older than 7 years, there were two pages. But it's a good plan to attack me personally instead of trying to defend your "overthrow democracy to save us from Trump" stance.
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Mar 3, 2024 15:39
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hooman posted:Do you have the object permanence to remember 8 years ago to the last time the sky was going to fall? Hell yeah, here for the 8 year-old deep cuts. We're still in the early stages of that nuclear fire, yes, and it's probably worse and more corrosive than we had anticipated. The most critical failure IMO has been the destabilisation of truth. Trying to overturn the election was pretty bad too, and even the most cynical doomsayers in 2016 didn't see that one coming. Also remember when he literally wanted to nuke a hurricane, lol.
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Mar 3, 2024 15:40
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hooman posted:I literally searched for "faithless elector" and older than 7 years, there were two pages. Sorry, I didn't realize you were attempting an argument there, because that's nonsensical. Faithless electors are fully constitutional and allowed under existing law. They're no more "overthrowing democracy" than is inherent in the system generally ( see: the structure of the senate). Bucky Fullminster posted:Also remember when he literally wanted to nuke a hurricane, lol. Look, we give him another four years, what's the worst that could happen? Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Mar 3, 2024 |
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Mar 3, 2024 15:43
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The Mattybee posted:Yeah they tried to perform a coup after they lost the next election, and most people who aren't irony-poisoned consider this to be a bad thing! Please quote where I said this was a good thing. Trump loving sucks, Trump is a shithead who will gently caress things up and make poo poo worse. Saying Trump will definitely overthrow democracy and install himself as dictator for life is just fortune telling. Is it possible that happens? Of course, many things are possible. Is it even close to likely? No. Trump is a fascist and a piece of poo poo, but he's also a huge dumbass who probably has dementia and can't keep his mind on one thing and has surrounded himself with people who are generally dumber and more venal than he is until he backstabs them. He may win or he may lose, but if he tries to make himself king he's going to fail.
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Mar 3, 2024 15:49
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Sorry, I didn't realize you were attempting an argument there, because that's nonsensical. I know they're allowed, however it's a severe subversion of the democratic process, which as you correctly point out is like the senate. It would have brought a crisis to a head a lot faster and put a lot of the very governmental institutions that I think will stop Trump firmly on his side. A heap of bad poo poo can and likely will happen under Trump. Please don't mistake my belief that Trump will fail to overthrow democracy as in any way a loving defence or endorsement of Trump. It categorically is not.
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Mar 3, 2024 15:52
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