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Yureina posted:Conversely, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to have a discussion with people who are prone to hyperbole, don't know what "genocide" means, and who are all too willing to forgive or ignore one side's crimes because its "their" side. It is rare for me to find any discussion about this subject that isn't prone to such things - that is all too ready to utterly demonize the side they don't like while expressing the virtues of the side they do like. In those circumstances, people are taking up extreme positions without any real thinking as to what might be a better way forward that doesn't involve wiping out the other side to the last. I can't deal with extremists. I don't know how to deal with pro-Israeli types who want to do full-on ethnic cleansing and don't reflect at all on how the present situation has come about, and I don't know how to deal with pro-Palestine types who are pretty much just like their pro-Israeli counterparts, but in reverse. We're half a year and over 15,000 dead children and hundreds of thousands more starving to death into this blatantly genocidal campaign against the Palestinian people. I'm genuinely not sure how to respond to this kind of equivocation that has been proven to be bullshit by Israel's actions, time and time again.
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Mar 3, 2024 18:05
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Fidelitious posted:This piece is full of Zionist supremacy I basically agree with everything you said but take issue with this specific term, which I've seen before and dislike. The hateful ideology in Israel is Jewish supremacism - the idea that for one reason or another (might makes right, ethnonationalism, religious narrative, security narrative) Jews are entitled to occupy and govern the land in a way that other people aren't. In Israeli policy, rhetoric, and philosophy, the dividing line between core and margin is not Zionist/non-Zionist, it's Jewish/non-Jewish. "Zionist supremacism" reads like someone wanted to say "Jewish supremacism" but felt queasy about it, so they swapped out "Jewish" for "Zionist." But it's a less accurate description of how the state and ideology function, because "Jewish" and "Zionist" obviously aren't equivalent. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Mar 3, 2024 |
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Mar 3, 2024 18:10
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Marenghi posted:Yeah a two state solution seems like a dead end. Israel has proven they'll just use it as an excuse to increase the size of Israel at the expense of Palestinian land. Is a single state any more feasible atm? Neither seems close but two state at least has an existing legal basis and support and really only needs one infeasible thing to happen (anti-Zionist US President) to potentially get moving.
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Mar 3, 2024 18:22
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I basically agree with everything you said but take issue with this specific term, which I've seen before and dislike. I would personally feel queasy about saying Jewish supremacism because of how intentionally conflated anti-semitism and anti-zionism have been. I would also assume it's a way of expressing the same thing while trying to be clear that this isn't about Judaism but about the view within the supporters of the settler colonial project. Thank you for drawing that distinction though about how Israeli rhetoric, policy and philosophy actually operate.
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Mar 3, 2024 18:23
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hooman posted:I would personally feel queasy about saying Jewish supremacism because of how intentionally conflated anti-semitism and anti-zionism have been. I get/respect that but it's actually engaging in the conflation to swap out "Jewish supremacy" for "Zionist supremacy" as if "Jewish" and "Zionist" are equivalent. quote:I would also assume it's a way of expressing the same thing Like here, if you say that "Jewish supremacy" and "Zionist supremacy" are "expressing the same thing," that's drawing the equivalence between Jewish and Zionist identity that we agree we want to avoid - both because it's inaccurate (one signifies adherence to an ideology, the other belongingness to an ethnoreligious cohort) and because it's dangerous to Jewish people who might be "held accountable" for Zionist crimes. quote:...while trying to be clear that this isn't about Judaism but about the view within the supporters of the settler colonial project. Yeah I think the best thing to do is to represent that view plainly, straightforwardly, honestly - the settlers are not trying to reinforce a Zionist homeland, or pursuing their rights as Zionists, they're trying to reinforce a Jewish homeland, pursuing the rights as Jews. So they're not Zionist-supremacist, at least not nearly as much as they are Jewish-supremacist. The same way that Apartheid South Africa and the antebellum/Jim Crow American South didn't primarily divide people by racist/non-racist, but by White/non-White, because the guiding ideology wasn't racist-supremacy but White supremacy. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Mar 3, 2024 |
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Mar 3, 2024 18:44
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Well poo poo, we're already at Flour Massacre 2. https://x.com/ajenglish/status/1764333180809592837?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q
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Mar 3, 2024 19:32
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Darth Walrus posted:Well poo poo, we're already at Flour Massacre 2. I really don't see how this doesn't end with a six figure death toll from the genocide when the history of this is written
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Mar 3, 2024 19:40
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National Parks posted:I really don't see how this doesn't end with a six figure death toll from the genocide when the history of this is written Taking into account starvation and disease, I guarantee we’re already there.
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Mar 3, 2024 19:43
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Civilized Fishbot posted:So they're not Zionist-supremacist, at least not nearly as much as they are Jewish-supremacist. While I broadly agree with your post, it seems like there are also some non-religious aspects to what Israel considers properly "Jewish". Jewish non-Zionists are targeted in the same way "race traitors" would be in a white supremacist society, they're barely considered Jewish. There is a dislike/disapproval of the diaspora, with some viewing the diaspora as "less Jewish" in some manner. There is an idea of an idealized ubermensch in the "New Jew", with even some early ridicule of Holocaust survivors for being "weak" and not conforming to this ideal. There's also just blunt ethnic racism going on. Ariel Sharon at one point "ordered the Ministry of Justice to draft legislation denying automatic Israeli citizenship to children of mixed Israeli-Palestinian parents". I think if Israel were solely about the religion and nothing else, they wouldn't have semen extraction squads running around. They clearly also care about bloodlines. Nucleic Acids posted:Taking into account starvation and disease, I guarantee we’re already there. Another thing to take into account is that while it seems like the number of Palestinian deaths is climbing slower than it was a few months ago, there is no reason to think conditions in the strip have improved. It's much more likely because the Health Ministry is no longer capable of accurately tracking deaths. So while the official number is currently around 30000, that is almost certainly much too low.
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Mar 3, 2024 20:05
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Nucleic Acids posted:Taking into account starvation and disease, I guarantee we’re already there. The UN seems to have pulled the "people are dying of famine and related illness in numbers now" lever in early to mid February (it takes a bit for famine to kill people but it was getting real bad by the end of December and catastrophic by the end of January), estimates I'm seeing are tentatively 200-300 / day so if we call it three weeks ago for arguments sake that's 5000ish+ and rising. Haven't seen any good estimates for waterborne disease and similar, presumably partly because the people suffering stomach issues from water are also suffering from malnutrition. Also, thousands of people missing and the health ministry's ability to count is strained. Tldr: if it's not six figures now it will be soon, and while famine takes a while to kill, once a large proportion of the population is starved for a bit (basically nobody is getting enough food, 20% are at immediate and extreme risk) and aid still isnt getting through, the numbers aren't linear. Paywalled but dovetails with the posts I've been linking from usaid, unrwa, wfp: NYT
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Mar 3, 2024 20:09
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Esran posted:While I broadly agree with your post, it seems like there are also some non-religious aspects to what Israel considers properly "Jewish". Definitely, and I hope I didn't imply otherwise. But the defining line of segregation is Jewish/non-Jewish, not Zionist/non-Zionist. And the way that line is drawn is ethnoreligious. You seem to think Jewish identity is purely "religious" and identity politics based around ethnic/"bloodlines" apply to something different, but that's mistaken. There has basically never been a form of Jewish identity which was to use your language "all about the religion", it has always included the idea that the Jew is a separate tribe/nation/ethnicity/race from others (in fact this and abstract monotheism are the two cornerstones of Rabbinic Judaism). Obviously non-Zionists face discrimination and even violence in Israel the same way non-racists face discrimination and even violence in racist societies. But the dominant, driving ideology of the state is not Racist/Zionist supremacy, it's White/Jewish supremacy. The Nation-State law does not define Israel as the Nation-State of Zionists but as the Nation-State of Jews. To swap out "Jewish supremacy" for "Zionist supremacy" is to get this wrong, while playing the game played by so many White Supremacists where they actually use "Zionist" as a dog-whistle for "Jewish." Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Mar 3, 2024 |
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Mar 3, 2024 20:25
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Civilized Fishbot posted:You seem to think Jewish identity is purely "religious" and identity politics based around ethnic/"bloodlines" apply to something different, but that's mistaken. There has basically never been a form of Jewish identity which was to use your language "all about the religion", it has always included the idea that the Jew is a separate tribe/nation/ethnicity/race from others (in fact this and abstract monotheism are the two cornerstones of Rabbinic Judaism). I think we agree, this is basically what I meant to get across: That Israel's project can be accurately likened to white supremacy. It's ethnoreligious bigotry, not "just" religious. As you say, "Jewish" isn't just about the religion for Israel, it's also about the ethnicity/tribe (for lack of a better word, it's not entirely accurate).
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Mar 3, 2024 20:48
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Meanwhile, on the border: https://x.com/loffredojeremy/status/1762480372963508266?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q
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Mar 3, 2024 21:05
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So is or is not Zion a dogwhistle term, I'm confused now.
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Mar 3, 2024 21:17
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Darth Walrus posted:Well poo poo, we're already at Flour Massacre 2. Well the West allowed them to do it once. It's like the hospitals once they see there's no push-back they'll continue to do it.
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Mar 3, 2024 21:29
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:So is or is not Zion a dogwhistle term, I'm confused now. It generally isn't, except sometimes when Nazis use it that way. In this case I think a really well-meaning person felt uncomfortable talking about "Jewish Supremacy" because it sounds like Nazi talk even though it's just the accurate way to describe the currently dominant idea in the letter and spirit of Israeli policy and political rhetoric right now - including the massacre in Gaza. So they changed it to "Zionist Supremacist" because, the Jews aren't the problem, it's Zionism that's the problem, right? I think it's better to just be specific and plain - Israel isn't, in the big picture, a Zionist-supremacist state, a state that gives special citizenship status to Zionists and conducts its greatest abuses exclusively against people legally classified as non-Zionists. Its state ideology is not founded on ideas about the indigeneity, security, and self-determination of Zionists. In these ways the state of Israel really does - as we discuss in this thread a lot - understand and promote itself as a state for all Jews, and in that pursuit/with that license it's become a Jewish-supremacist state loaded with politicians and voters of that ideology. Of course Zionists are more popular than non-Zionists but that's not the big dividing line between castes here. I think Wikipedia's article-chapter about it is really good actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacism#Jewish quote:Ilan Pappé, an expatriate Israeli historian, writes that the First Aliyah to Israel "established a society based on Jewish supremacy" within "settlement-cooperatives" that were Jewish owned and operated.[51] Joseph Massad, a professor of Arab studies, holds that "Jewish supremacism" has always been a "dominating principle" in religious and secular Zionism.[52][53] Zionism was established with the goal of creating a sovereign Jewish state, where Jews could be the majority, rather than the minority. Theodor Herzl, the ideological father of Zionism, considered antisemitism as an eternal feature of all societies in which Jews lived as minorities, and as a result, he believed that only a separation could allow Jews to escape eternal persecution. "Let them give us sovereignty over a piece of the Earth's surface, just sufficient for the needs of our people, then we will do the rest!"[54] Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Mar 3, 2024 |
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Mar 3, 2024 22:03
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cat botherer posted:gently caress right off with this “the truth is in the middle” garbage. One side is doing a genocide, the other is being genocided. Thank you for proving my point. If all you can do is scream at someone who doesn't say things exactly the way you want, then you are the sort of person I prefer not to deal with. Josef bugman posted:Remember when Palestinians asked for their lands back peacefully and then hundreds of people got shot in the knees on purpose? There is no "better solution" when one side does not want to negotiate peace and wants to keep killing people because they don't believe they are people. I don't actually, and that sounds pretty hosed up. Can you give me a date or a source so I can look into it more? team overhead smash posted:Two state solution based on 1967 borders. I'm going to follow up on this one since it is the closest to a serious reply. My concern is long-term viability. Speaking of Gaza for a moment, we are talking about a very tiny piece of land devoid of natural resources. The only real thing it has is population, which even without war and blockade would struggle to sustain itself without outside assistance. You cannot build a viable long-term state without future prospects, and so such prospects need to be created. There are potential models for this, of course, since we have numerous resource-poor nations who have managed to make things work out quite well for themselves such as Japan, South Korea, or indeed Israel. What Gaza needs, I think, is some kind of industry or economic project to transform it into a nation that can grow, sustain itself, and provide a future for its people. Something that Gaza can export, acquire currency from, and so be able to give its people growth. Without any prospects for improvement or development, then Gaza is left as it is now: an open-air prison where food and bombs go in, and rockets and terrorism come out. There needs to be an eye to the future - otherwise this is never going to end. Of course, such an idea will require the violence to be put to an end and for there to be at least some period of detente. Obviously this is way easier said than done: there is some serious bad blood here going back decades. It is quite clear that there are people who need to be removed from the picture. The leadership in Israel that quietly funded Hamas and are exploiting this war to push for a one-state solution need to be removed, tried, and imprisoned for their actions. The leadership of Hamas who carried out the Oct 7 attack and who have made it clear that they too are after a one-state solution will also need to be removed, tried, and imprisoned for their actions. The minions on both sides who have carried out the will of their leaders in support of these criminal goals will also need to be dealt with. There will almost certainly have to be some kind of international force to help rebuild Gaza and prevent another outbreak of violence - The Israelis alone clearly aren't qualified for this task. Such a project would take a sustained effort, quite a bit of money, and require quick action against malefactors that would seek to ruin things. But if it can be made to work? Then you might be able to create something that can last into the long-term. Of course, if people would prefer to continue their forever war until we get a full genocide of one side or the other? Then it would make sense why people like me who hope for a proper, peaceful two-state solution would get told to gently caress off.
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Mar 4, 2024 02:49
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Yureina posted:I don't actually, and that sounds pretty hosed up. Can you give me a date or a source so I can look into it more? If you’re genuinely unaware of the 2018 March of Return, maybe you’re not in a position to make value judgments on how Palestinian peace strategies aren’t living up to your standards.
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Mar 4, 2024 03:12
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Yureina posted:I don't actually, and that sounds pretty hosed up. Can you give me a date or a source so I can look into it more? This would be one example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests
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Mar 4, 2024 03:14
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Better late than never, I suppose... https://www.reuters.com/world/us-vp-harris-urges-israeli-government-do-more-boost-aid-into-gaza-2024-03-03/ quote:U.S. Vice President Kamala Harris bluntly called out Israel on Sunday for not doing enough to ease a "humanitarian catastrophe" in Gaza as the Biden administration faces increasing pressure to rein in its close ally while it wages war with Hamas militants. And of course it comes with an implied caveat that Hamas will have to agree to Israel's deal.
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Mar 4, 2024 03:16
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Oh boy, give Israel all the hostages back in exchange for a 6 week ceasefire in Gaza when we already loving saw that the instant they ease off on the Gaza strip they clamp down even harder on the West Bank.
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Mar 4, 2024 03:22
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Yureina posted:I don't actually, and that sounds pretty hosed up. Can you give me a date or a source so I can look into it more? It's true that it's an unreasonable standard to assume anyone participating in a discussion has a scholar's understanding about whatever subject, but to start bloviating about how both sides are bad and, this is just sports team fan behavior and, oh come now, genocide? really? and not have at least some sort of cursory knowledge of the march of return and kids getting their legs blown off by laughing israeli snipers is loving insane. Yureina posted:It is quite clear that there are people who need to be removed from the picture. The israelis. israel. The state of israel. There is no "both sides" here, there is a nazilike genocidal apartheid regime that holds all the cards and has the full and complete backing of the undisputed world power and its most powerful allies, and there are the other guys. Even in your most lurid October 7th NYT fantasies there is nothing bad enough you can put on the Palestinians, Hamas included, that tilts this one infinitesimally small fraction of the tiniest iota away from israel. The state of israel must be treated like nazi Germany should have been. It must be dismantled, and the process shepherded by a truth and reconciliation commission that insures that no one with even the most remote connection to any structure of governmental power in israel, let alone the IDF, is ever within smelling distance of the position of neighborhood dog catcher, let alone a real level of power.
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Mar 4, 2024 03:23
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Shofixti posted:This would be one example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests Thank you. I truly didn't know about this, but seeing the dates when it happened? Unfortunately I know why. Lets just say some things were happening in my life at the time and leave it at that.
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Mar 4, 2024 03:36
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Yureina posted:Thank you. I truly didn't know about this, but seeing the dates when it happened? Unfortunately I know why. Lets just say some things were happening in my life at the time and leave it at that. Here's a more detailed article about the knees thing: https://archive.ph/vDhPP TL;DR: Israeli snipers were actively competing to see how many Palestinians they could maim by shooting them in the knees with high-powered sniper rifles. They killed over 200 and wounded about 8,000 with live ammunition.
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Mar 4, 2024 03:38
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Paladinus posted:Better late than never, I suppose... Genocide Lover Kamala Harris posted:Joe Biden and I are unwavering in our commitment to Israel's security. Hamas cannot control Gaza. And the threat Hamas poses to the people of Israel must be eliminated. Hamas is a brutal terrorist organization that has vowed to repeat October 7th again and again until Israel is annihilated. Hamas has shown no regard for innocent life, including for the people of Gaza who have suffered under its rule for almost two decades. And Hamas still holds dozens of hostages for nearly 150 days now, innocent men and women, including american citizens who were taken from their homes and a concert.
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Mar 4, 2024 04:33
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Yureina posted:There are potential models for this, of course, since we have numerous resource-poor nations who have managed to make things work out quite well for themselves such as Japan, South Korea, or indeed Israel. Japan built up its base with freebase colonialism starting from the 19th century, and recovered from the war by selling to the US during the Korean war. It also benefitted from being seen by the US as a bulwark against the Soviets/Chinese. Korea built up their wealth by selling the blood of her sons in Vietnam for favorable trading deals and manufacturing tech from the US. It also benefitted from being seen by the US as a bulwark against the Soviets/Chinese. Israel got a boost in their fledgling government and infrastructure by an absolutely massive payment from Germany that hardly made it to the actual Holocaust survivors, as well as massive amounts of donations from the Jewish diaspora. It also benefitted from being seen by the US as a bulwark against Pan-Arabism.
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Mar 4, 2024 07:46
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Yureina posted:Thank you. I truly didn't know about this, but seeing the dates when it happened? Unfortunately I know why. Lets just say some things were happening in my life at the time and leave it at that. Fair enough if you didn't read the news at the time. But maybe you could do background research into that conflict, or just read this thread to find out the history. Especially if you're coming in with long screeds about both sides being bad. And pro-palestine people being as bad as the pro-israeli people who are cheering on an ongoing genocide.
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Mar 4, 2024 08:14
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Kunabomber posted:Japan built up its base with freebase colonialism starting from the 19th century, and recovered from the war by selling to the US during the Korean war. It also benefitted from being seen by the US as a bulwark against the Soviets/Chinese. In other words, Gaza will need to find something that they can offer to someone else in exchange for money that can be used to improve the lives of its citizens and allow them to prosper. This is more or less what I stated, though I was thinking more in terms of economic benefits rather than political ones - since those will almost certainly be problematic. Fulfilling someone else's political objectives in exchange for money inevitably will lead to conflict, since chances are those political objectives that Gaza would be fulfilling would come at someone else's expense - likely one of their two neighbors, and Gaza is not going to win a war against either Israel or Egypt. Such a move would likely lead to another outbreak of violence, see Gaza get bombed up, and so bring us right back to where we are now. For that reason, I'd be more interest in some kind of economic benefit: some product or service that can be made in Gaza and sold to those living outside of Gaza in exchange for money - money that can then be used to improve the lives of those within Gaza. Pentecoastal Elites posted:The israelis. israel. The state of israel. There is no "both sides" here, there is a nazilike genocidal apartheid regime that holds all the cards and has the full and complete backing of the undisputed world power and its most powerful allies, and there are the other guys. Even in your most lurid October 7th NYT fantasies there is nothing bad enough you can put on the Palestinians, Hamas included, that tilts this one infinitesimally small fraction of the tiniest iota away from israel. The state of israel must be treated like nazi Germany should have been. It must be dismantled, and the process shepherded by a truth and reconciliation commission that insures that no one with even the most remote connection to any structure of governmental power in israel, let alone the IDF, is ever within smelling distance of the position of neighborhood dog catcher, let alone a real level of power. I can't comment on "lurid October 7th NYT fantasies" since I do not read the New York Times. Their articles tend to be behind paywalls, and I have little to no desire to pay for access to their articles. I do agree that those who have committed criminal acts should be held to account - I said as much in the post you are quoting, though you seem to have left it out of your quotation. As for a ground-up dismantling/reconstruction process akin to what Germany experienced in the aftermath of WW2, that would require outside intervention and an occupation of Israel. From there, once the criminals were tried and punished, the follow-up would be to institute a new system of governance that would ensure that those living within the current State of Israel would be able to have a prosperous future. Such a process would be different than what Germany experienced, of course. Germany was basically flattened by Allied bombing, whereas Israel, barring the damage done on Oct 7 and sporadic rocket attacks, is very much intact. That at least means that reconstruction costs won't be as bad. The bigger issue in both cases would be in implementing the desired cultural shift. It took decades of occupation and commitment for Germany to go from the Third Reich to what it is today: a state that is imperfect, but clearly much better than what existed before. A similar sort of effort would be required for Israel, with the end result being a more agreeable Israeli state a few decades down the line. I was actually thinking of a post-WW2 style effort to rebuild Gaza, but if you would like to do that for Israel also, then alright. It would make the process much more expensive and challenging, but if it means that we end up with two rebuilt states a few decades from now which will refrain from violence? That does sound like a worthy cause to me. Yureina fucked around with this message at 08:18 on Mar 4, 2024 |
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Mar 4, 2024 08:15
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Yureina posted:In other words, Gaza will need to find something that they can offer to someone else in exchange for money that can be used to improve the lives of its citizens and allow them to prosper. You seemed to have missed their point. Japan, South Korea and Israel had their economies lifted up by the US to serve it's interests in the regions. Palestine has nothing to offer the US as a regional ally to warrant being lifted up, especially when the US already supports Israel. quote:I can't comment on "lurid October 7th NYT fantasies" since I do not read the New York Times. Their articles tend to be behind paywalls, and I have little to no desire to pay for access to their articles. They've been discussed two or three times over the past few weeks. The article was posted and discussed in the context of them being debunked. Please if you're not going to read some history on the conflict, like the 2018 march of return. At least read the recent posts in this thread. You'll be better able to contribute sharing the knowledge base of the other posters. Or as Dave put it more succinctly. Jai Guru Dave posted:If you’re genuinely unaware of the 2018 March of Return, maybe you’re not in a position to make value judgments on how Palestinian peace strategies aren’t living up to your standards.
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Mar 4, 2024 08:46
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Marenghi posted:You seemed to have missed their point. Japan, South Korea and Israel had their economies lifted up by the US to serve it's interests in the regions. Palestine has nothing to offer the US as a regional ally to warrant being lifted up, especially when the US already supports Israel. I understood what they were trying to say. I followed up on it by promoting the idea that Gaza will need to provide something of value to someone. I made no indications as to who that someone might be. You are right that Gaza probably does not have anything to offer the USA, but the USA is not the only country in the world. Someone else might find value in something Gaza can offer them. However, this is also why I emphasized that this "value" that Gaza would offer another ought to be economic rather than political, since serving someone's political objective will likely clash with someone else's political objectives. Such a situation would likely result in a conflict that Gaza cannot win, and so we are back to where we are now. Gaza needs to find and develop an economic sector that is of value to another. What that sector is or who would find that valuable is another question entirely. For a start, it would probably be a step in the production process - part of the supply chain where Gaza does part of something that leads to a finished product. Going into greater detail on this is more a subject for those involved rather than me though. I may have not known about the events in 2018, but I know of other things. I know of the current mess, the prolonged issue of occupation/blockade/settlements, the Second Intifada, the Oslo Accords, the First Intifada, Entebbe, Black September, the interstate wars during the Cold War, the Nakba, the British Mandate, Sykes-Picot, and so forth. Based on all of that? It is clear to me that both Israelis and Palestinians have deep, decades long grievances against each other. Questions of which side has "suffered more" or who is more "right" gets into emotional arguments that lead to much recrimination and anger, but nothing about "where do we go from here?". My interest is in trying to figure out that question - the one about the future, and finding one that can lead to a peaceful resolution eventually. I feel that this question is not being sufficiently addressed in news media, political discourse, or online discussion - and so I chose to bring it up. Because unless you are going for 100% total victory where one side is wiped out, all conflicts end with a negotiated settlement of some kind. Since I am assuming that ethnic cleansing and/or genocide is not acceptable, a solution short of that needs to be found. Trying to find an answer to that question is what led me to this thread.
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Mar 4, 2024 09:14
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Palestine has no opportunity to build up it's economy. They are under blockade by Israel who intentionally keeps them down as a Bantustan to provide cheap labour to Israeli agriculture and other low-skilled jobs. Your idea at present is as fantasist as the Zionist politicians who claim Gaza could have been a wonderful tourist resort if not for Hamas. The first step isn't Gaza finding a niche exporting to Europe or elsewhere. It's Israel taking their knees of their neck.
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Mar 4, 2024 09:17
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Yureina posted:It is clear to me that both Israelis and Palestinians have deep, decades long grievances against each other. Questions of which side has "suffered more" or who is more "right" gets into emotional arguments that lead to much recrimination and anger, but nothing about "where do we go from here?". My interest is in trying to figure out that question - the one about the future, and finding one that can lead to a peaceful resolution eventually. I feel that this question is not being sufficiently addressed in news media, political discourse, or online discussion - and so I chose to bring it up. Because unless you are going for 100% total victory where one side is wiped out, all conflicts end with a negotiated settlement of some kind. Since I am assuming that ethnic cleansing and/or genocide is not acceptable, a solution short of that needs to be found. Trying to find an answer to that question is what led me to this thread. You realize that genocide isn't an accetable solution, so you too are taking a moral and emotional stand here. Because ethnic cleansing of Gaza, annexation of West Bank and cordoning off remnant Palestinian population into bantustans is the solution Israeli establishment is seeking. There already is a solution that international community and Palestine authority has been seeking. A solution that takes into consideration thr points you've made about economical prosperity. Long term solution that gives peace a real chance. The two state solution. It's just that Israel rejects it. Israel wants to annex much of West Bank. Israel doesn't want Palestine to be economically self sufficient. From blockades to destuction of Palestinian farms and groves, Israel seeks to actively undermine Palestinian economy. This has been self evident from at least since the failure of Oslo accords. Israel categorically rejects two state solution. Israel doesn't want viable Palestinian state. So when you say that you don't care about who is more wrong and which side is right, you really aren't making any sense. Because you are then rejecting your own position of wanting to see self sufficient Palestine. Because Israel actively fights against it. Israel is clearly in the wrong here from the point of view of international community and your own position. So it really doesn't make sense wanting to push for some neutral 'truth is in the middle' position in this case because then you are actually rejecting your own position of wanting to see self sufficient Palestine. There is nothing wrong in taking sides when one party is clearly in the wrong.
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Mar 4, 2024 09:35
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Marenghi posted:Palestine has no opportunity to build up it's economy. They are under blockade by Israel who intentionally keeps them down as a Bantustan to provide cheap labour to Israeli agriculture and other low-skilled jobs. Of course. Being able to develop an economic sector that involves trade and Gaza selling something to others in exchange for money to improve their own standards of living necessitates an end to blockade. I thought that was self-explanatory. Obviously you can't really do trade or industry if you can't get things in or out. So lets start with the blockade then. Gaza shares borders with Israel and Egypt, and so the first step would be to have one or both of these nations lift the blockade. Since it has been sustained since Hamas took over Gaza in 2007, it is clear that everyone involved has settled in - and so something needs to change in order to result in the blockade being lifted. Since Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005, there is a two-year period where Gaza was unoccupied, but not blockaded. Since Hamas seems to be the reason why the blockade was raised in the first place, chances are the blockade will remain until Hamas is removed from power. Who would replace them is not entirely obvious though, which is why I proposed in an earlier post that it probably should be an international effort to provide aid, reconstruction, security, and other essentials. It is highly unlikely that Israel alone could carry out such a project - assuming that they would even want to. It would have to start with the essentials, followed by a gradual establishment of local control with the eventual goal of self-government. Regardless, Israel's part in the blockade would become increasingly untenable and unacceptable - leading to it being raised. As for Egypt's part in the blockade, I must admit I know less about their reasons for it. They were the first Arab nation to make peace with Israel, but they don't strike me as friends or allies. Wary co-operation perhaps. Why do they maintain their part in the blockade?
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Mar 4, 2024 09:37
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Everyone who's "settled in" getting to stay is exactly the goal of colonialism though. If you look at the map of the west bank partition timeline and the state of the west bank today, is that an acceptable outcome?
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Mar 4, 2024 09:42
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Yureina posted:I understood what they were trying to say. You did not understand. You also don't understand that economics is intrinsically linked with politics.
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Mar 4, 2024 10:36
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You'd need an outside party that isn't beholden to the US to intervene, and that's assuming the US lets them instead of starting WW3. So China maybe.
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Mar 4, 2024 11:31
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Yureina posted:Thank you for proving my point. If all you can do is scream at someone who doesn't say things exactly the way you want, then you are the sort of person I prefer not to deal with.
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Mar 4, 2024 13:02
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Yureina posted:Of course, if people would prefer to continue their forever war until we get a full genocide of one side or the other? Then it would make sense why people like me who hope for a proper, peaceful two-state solution would get told to gently caress off. Wow, you're even both-sidesing to the point of claiming Hamas is committing genocide. Edit: also calling it a war. Jfc. You are not prepared for this topic.
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Mar 4, 2024 13:16
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Israel as it exists does not want peace with Palestinians. I don't know what else can be said. They want all the land from the previous Mandatory Palestine to just be Israel, a Jewish ethnostate(not a true one state solution, or not in the way it normally is used). But in the event they succeed in that, they will look to Jordan, Lebanon, or the Sinai next.
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Mar 4, 2024 15:39
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Nail Rat posted:Israel as it exists does not want peace with Palestinians. I don't know what else can be said. They want all the land from the previous Mandatory Palestine to just be Israel, a Jewish ethnostate(not a true one state solution, or not in the way it normally is used).
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Mar 4, 2024 16:22
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