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Just hit the report button, don't call attention to it within the thread.
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Mar 5, 2024 16:01
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https://archive.is/xgjXMquote:
This is conducting foreign policy and facilitating Israel’s war with the same kind of tactics a mob accountant would use to avoid hitting the dollar amount that requires the bank to notify the feds.
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Mar 6, 2024 18:36
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drat, Joe sure does love him some genocide. Just can't get enough of it.
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Mar 6, 2024 19:56
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I was told Joe was the "harm reduction" choice
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Mar 6, 2024 20:15
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Proud Christian Mom posted:I was told Joe was the "harm reduction" choice For if you live in the US - Yes. For outside the US - No, but Trump won't be reigning in the Israelis either.
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Mar 6, 2024 21:02
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I think Houthis doin' stuff is related enough it should go in this thread: Several undersea communications cables in the Red Sea have been cut, affecting 25% of data traffic flowing between Asia and Europe, a telecoms company and a US official say.
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Mar 6, 2024 22:27
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Proud Christian Mom posted:I was told Joe was the "harm reduction" choice Considering that Trump has currently declared that Gaza should be completely wiped out... he still is.
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Mar 6, 2024 22:59
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I don't like that my choice is between genocide with tons of bombs and genocide with a fuckload of bombs
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Mar 6, 2024 23:05
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Proud Christian Mom posted:I was told Joe was the "harm reduction" choice unfortunately, yeah
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Mar 6, 2024 23:19
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There is an argument to be made that the Hamas acted as a result of conditions that were set into place by the Trump whitehouse. He would undoubtedly make this and other situations much, much worse.
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Mar 6, 2024 23:24
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oh absolutely, a huge portion of the circumstances that led to the oct 7 attack were directly trump's doing, like the movement of the embassy. escalation and accelerationism are his loving specialty
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Mar 6, 2024 23:29
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https://apnews.com/article/yemen-houthi-attacks-us-israel-palestinians-gaza-89c5440d9943216a787b39912bd969e0 First fatalities in Houthis attacks. The True Confidence was hit by missiles and two are confirmed dead, and it seems up to three more are missing, and more injured in the blast. Turns out just firing missiles randomly isn't safe for the crew on board.
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Mar 6, 2024 23:49
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I'm baffled that any ships are still taking that route considering that one ship's already sunk there. You'd figure that even from a soulless MBA perspective the potential monetary loss is too big, and from any other perspective, sending your sailors through an active war zone is wildly unethical.
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Mar 7, 2024 00:34
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War risk insurance is about 1kk while fuel costs around the Cape are also 1kk. Usually it would be like 20k so there's a huge increase, and shipping is generally a low margin business and time is always a factor. I dont think you understand shipping. Everyone on board is expendable to the company, they are basically coffin ships and those have been a thing for centuries. Insurance bears the cost, the lives of the sailors are irrelevant, the expectation is that they die. If they survive, gently caress it just give them checks and run the company through bankruptcy before they have time to make it to the bank. Companies had no trouble running ships through there unprotected when piracy was rampant, and had no problem leaving the ships and crew to rot in Somalia instead of bothering with paying anything. Companies frequently lay ships up around the world when the vessel is too old or rates are in the dumps and abandon them and the crew. We just got war risk rates on MLL upped in our contract but it sounds like MSC guys just get to suffer. I wonder why they can't get people. Ours is better also, we don't need to actually be hit to collect, just a clear target of attack. It might have been the Firm of Girddlestone from Arthur Conan Doyle but it also might have been something from Kipling that was a good window into the old days I forget. lightpole fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Mar 7, 2024 |
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Mar 7, 2024 00:46
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It doesn't help that for plenty of things being shipped, how long it takes there is a very important calculation. Tacking on nearly a month extra transit time is a very big deal.
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Mar 7, 2024 00:54
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Double post, but new news. https://twitter.com/Seamus_Malek/status/1765440149712720370 According to a Houthis leader, the deaths were unintentional, and they are prepared to allow America to compensate the victims. And then they will consider compensating the family of the victims by the same amount that the families are compensated in Gaza. So I assume 'none'.
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Mar 7, 2024 01:19
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lightpole posted:Everyone on board is expendable to the company, they are basically coffin ships and those have been a thing for centuries. Insurance bears the cost, the lives of the sailors are irrelevant, the expectation is that they die. If they survive, gently caress it just give them checks and run the company through bankruptcy before they have time to make it to the bank. Companies had no trouble running ships through there unprotected when piracy was rampant, and had no problem leaving the ships and crew to rot in Somalia instead of bothering with paying anything. Companies frequently lay ships up around the world when the vessel is too old or rates are in the dumps and abandon them and the crew. ok but have you considered that maybe this is a great victory over capitalist imperialism because the nice man in the beret said "solidarity" on TikTok e: I should make this serious. I honestly can't believe anyone is defending hucking missiles at uninvolved workers who are probably already getting a poo poo deal. My thoughts on this yesterday were "it's all fun and games until someone gets killed*" and welp * yes I know people are getting killed in Gaza too, but mowing down random Filipino sailors won't make a spit of difference Discussion Quorum fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Mar 7, 2024 |
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Mar 7, 2024 02:52
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Discussion Quorum posted:ok but have you considered that maybe this is a great victory over capitalist imperialism because the nice man in the beret said "solidarity" on TikTok People seem to really think that attacking people randomly is really loving cool as long as you say you're doing it for a cause they like.
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Mar 7, 2024 03:00
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I bet it’s Phillip Morris. Sales of Marlboros have tanked since canal traffic had dried up.
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Mar 7, 2024 03:21
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Discussion Quorum posted:ok but have you considered that maybe this is a great victory over capitalist imperialism because the nice man in the beret said "solidarity" on TikTok I think you're misreading their post if you think they're defending what the Houthis are doing, they're explaining that the reason ships are still being exposed to this danger is because the people who own them do not give a gently caress about crew safety and have no meaningful skin in the game financially if the ship ends up at the bottom of the Red Sea.
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Mar 7, 2024 03:58
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PurpleXVI posted:I think you're misreading their post if you think they're defending what the Houthis are doing, they're explaining that the reason ships are still being exposed to this danger is because the people who own them do not give a gently caress about crew safety and have no meaningful skin in the game financially if the ship ends up at the bottom of the Red Sea. Minor quibble, the reason these crews are in danger is because their companies are sending them into the Red Sea and also because some assholes are shooting missiles at random freighters. It's not like missiles are part of the typical weather in the Red Sea this year, you know, something that just kinda happens and isn't anyone's fault. But I am not arguing with lightpole, I agree with them. Others may have been defending the Houthis on this point (certainly they are elsewhere) but I am trying to not Post About Posters.
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Mar 7, 2024 04:17
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I do think it is kind of weird to purely blame the companies trying to ship freight through the Red Sea and not the people deliberately firing missiles at their ships. It is only a warzone because a different party is choosing to make it a warzone. According to the Houthis, most of these ships shouldn't have any worry at all, but the people killed were completely unrelated to the Gazan genocide.
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Mar 7, 2024 04:24
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Kchama posted:I do think it is kind of weird to purely blame the companies trying to ship freight through the Red Sea and not the people deliberately firing missiles at their ships. It is only a warzone because a different party is choosing to make it a warzone. According to the Houthis, most of these ships shouldn't have any worry at all, but the people killed were completely unrelated to the Gazan genocide. So like, one time when I was in Iraq some dumbass LT wanted to route our convoys through Route Irish (a black, dangerous route) to save time instead of just going down Tampa (safer but not always green). Everyone and their mother told him to shut the gently caress up and quit advocating for that or he's going to get fragged. So my point is, the dangerous route exists and people are being put at risk because management isn't within stabbing or grenade range of those sailors.
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Mar 7, 2024 04:35
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Kchama posted:I do think it is kind of weird to purely blame the companies trying to ship freight through the Red Sea and not the people deliberately firing missiles at their ships. It is only a warzone because a different party is choosing to make it a warzone. According to the Houthis, most of these ships shouldn't have any worry at all, but the people killed were completely unrelated to the Gazan genocide. I mean, not to put a fine point on it, but the US and its proxies have seen fit to kill probably more than 2 people completely unrelated to the Houthis specifically by targeting shipping. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_in_Yemen_(2016%E2%80%93present) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_Yemen And now they're watching another US proxy/affiliated state conduct and even more devastating attack (including interdicting humanitarian supplies). By the standards of US interventions, achieving this https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4501958-houthi-fight-pentagon-cost/amp/ while only killing 2 civilians is quite restrained. We've almost certainly killed as many civilians in Yemen to kill a single AQ leader. It's not that killing civilians is okay, it's just that by the standards of the atrocities in the region... hell, by the standards of other atrocities the Houthis have committed, this is pretty tame.
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Mar 7, 2024 04:38
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Kchama posted:I do think it is kind of weird to purely blame the companies trying to ship freight through the Red Sea and not the people deliberately firing missiles at their ships. It is only a warzone because a different party is choosing to make it a warzone. According to the Houthis, most of these ships shouldn't have any worry at all, but the people killed were completely unrelated to the Gazan genocide. The posts blaming the Houthis are further up the thread. the JJ posted:I mean, not to put a fine point on it, but the US and its proxies have seen fit to kill probably more than 2 people completely unrelated to the Houthis specifically by targeting shipping. This is whattaboutism and is irrelevant. Nobody has absolved the US of guilt in any of this or cares to try as far as I've seen. Noone supports Isreal beyond saying the initial Hamas attack was very very bad. Almost everyone supports a free Palestine. lightpole fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Mar 7, 2024 |
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Mar 7, 2024 05:10
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Steezo posted:So like, one time when I was in Iraq some dumbass LT wanted to route our convoys through Route Irish (a black, dangerous route) to save time instead of just going down Tampa (safer but not always green). Everyone and their mother told him to shut the gently caress up and quit advocating for that or he's going to get fragged. So my point is, the dangerous route exists and people are being put at risk because management isn't within stabbing or grenade range of those sailors. That seems different though, because this WAS previously a safe route just a couple months ago. This would be like blaming someone for going down to Tampa instead. the JJ posted:I mean, not to put a fine point on it, but the US and its proxies have seen fit to kill probably more than 2 people completely unrelated to the Houthis specifically by targeting shipping. They’ve basically gotten lucky that they haven’t killed more people. And that seems entirely like saying it’s okay, because they’ve killed less people this time. lightpole posted:The posts blaming the Houthis are further up the thread. Yes, but the posts I was complaining about weren’t blaming them at all, and pinning the blame on people the attacked work for. Kchama fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Mar 7, 2024 |
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Mar 7, 2024 05:11
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lightpole posted:The posts blaming the Houthis are further up the thread. Not whataboutism, just geopolitics. I'm not saying 'it's okay'. I'm saying it's neither random nor unprecedented, nor entirely unprovoked. Russia invades Ukraine. US (attempts) to damage Russia economically and supplies arms to Ukraine, including some that have led to civilian deaths. Partly because we want to save Ukrainian lives, partly to shape Russian behavior, so that they (or other would be aggressors) think twice about doing it again. If they back out, we (presumably) back off sanctions, and Russians won't die at the end of NATO weapons. Israel invades Gaza. Houthis can't provide HIMARS, but they can put pressure on US economically. Instead of controlling SWIFT, they control launch pads and munitions that can teach out into a global choke point. The goal isn't to sink ships for the lulz, they're perfectly happy if the ships go around. But just like we say to banks 'hey, we know it's none of your business what happens in Ukraine, but if you handle transactions for these Russians, we'll arrest you and seize your assets etc. Etc. Sorry, not your fault, but we have to punish the Russians. If that upsets you, take it up with Putin.' Do the sanctions cripple Russian? Have they ended the war? No. But theoretically it adds friction and costs to the Russians in a way that fall short of, say, nuking a city, which is at the high end of deterrent options. The Houthis say to shipping companies 'hey, if you go in the Red Sea, we might blow you up. Nothing personal, we just have to put pressure on the Americans. If that upsets you, take it up with Netanyahu.' Its not ending the war, but it's adding friction and literally upping the general cost of doing business. Not pro-Houthi, just... frustrated by the American tendency to look at non Western powers doing what we think of as normal Western powers poo poo and going all 'what are these savages doing, flailing about at random'. Like the point is to make a previously safe thing unsafe. Just like the US then makes certain places in Yemen unsafe to be. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_missile_strikes_in_Yemen "On 3 January 2024, the United States and a group of countries issued an ultimatum to the Houthis to stop their activities.[40] In the days leading up to the strike, members of the US Congress and The Pentagon demanded a strong and deterrent response to the Houthis.[41]" This too results in innocent bystanders dying. Insofar as I have an ethical judgment, I'd say yeah, as far as pressure per civilian death, yes, this is pretty sane. That's not whataboutism, that's just efficiency metrics. These aren't random targets, they could (and have) point those missiles at Saudi cities. Other Iranian proxies in the region do poo poo like suicide bombs and shoot up music festivals. Selectively targeting big rear end economic targets with relatively few sailors on board is a much, much preferable option. Yes, moving up to attack civilian shipping is an escalation. It's a remarkably proportionate escalation considering that they're explicitly responding to poo poo like this: https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/05/middleeast/israel-fire-palestinians-aid-northern-gaza-intl/index.html.
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Mar 7, 2024 07:24
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the JJ posted:Not whataboutism, just geopolitics. I'm not saying 'it's okay'. I'm saying it's neither random nor unprecedented, nor entirely unprovoked. So in case you missed it, this does not put pressure on the US or the Isrealis. Absolutely 0 pressure. As far as your ethical judgement pressure per civilian death along with those wonderful efficiency metrics go gently caress yourself you stupid motherfucker. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 7, 2024 11:50
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Don't be ridiculous. The reason the international response has been what it is, is because the pressure is real. And that the added costs of shipping are real. And the fact there's a bunch of warships in the Red Sea shooting at Yemen is real.
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Mar 7, 2024 12:23
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Dance Officer posted:Don't be ridiculous. The reason the international response has been what it is, is because the pressure is real. And that the added costs of shipping are real. And the fact there's a bunch of warships in the Red Sea shooting at Yemen is real. Probably fair to say that the Houthis have applied as much or more pressure over what's going on in Gaza than the US has.
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Mar 7, 2024 13:34
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I can assure you this has a very limited impact on the cost of shipping. It’s an annoyance at best, but shipping rates were depressed so reducing availability by routing longer actually makes number go up for the shipping lines. The governments might be seeing some pressure from cargo owners (lol there’s idiots that still believe in Just In Time) or it might just be navies going OMG PIRATES LETS GO LETS GO as they are want to do. They might also be concerned about the price of oil, because that’s an important area for that. The True Confidence was a bulker heading from China to Jeddah loaded. Wasn’t really an option to avoid the Red Sea. Bulkers carry low value cargos, usually dirt or dirt like stuff in bulk. In this case from the movement pattern I’m guessing steel products. Arguably a ship delivering to Saudi Arabia is a legitimate target for the Houthis, but the way modern shipping structures itself nationalities are kind of meaningless. The guys who died had nothing to do with the conflict.
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Mar 7, 2024 13:43
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FrozenVent posted:I can assure you this has a very limited impact on the cost of shipping. It’s an annoyance at best, but shipping rates were depressed so reducing availability by routing longer actually makes number go up for the shipping lines. Attacking Saudi Arabian ships definitely breaks the peace treaty they signed with SA last year. Also it has been confirmed to carry steel products and trucks.
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Mar 7, 2024 14:03
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jeez guys, almost like you need to disrupt the enemy's economy during war. personally, i think attacking civilian supply ships is a bad thing and onpy filthy terrorists would do that. a big country like the us, canada, japan, russia or nazi germany would never sink a civilian suppy ship during a war. thats never happened in the history of shipping, we are experiencing a first.
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Mar 7, 2024 18:03
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My Spirit Otter posted:jeez guys, almost like you need to disrupt the enemy's economy during war. The virgin "My treats!"  The chad "Its economic warfare, also we kill people"
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Mar 7, 2024 18:10
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Kchama posted:Attacking Saudi Arabian ships definitely breaks the peace treaty they signed with SA last year. That's the point we are trying to get across. It is not a Saudi ship.
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Mar 7, 2024 18:24
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My Spirit Otter posted:jeez guys, almost like you need to disrupt the enemy's economy during war. gently caress yeah dude, all of those container ships full of missiles and bombs for Israel, just foundering at the bottom of the Red Sea. gently caress YEAH. Except lol wait no, it's aid shipments to loving Sudan that are being delayed because of the attacks on shipping. Guess it's just a matter of which genocide the Houthis care more about. https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2024/feb/16/houthi-attacks-in-red-sea-having-a-catastrophic-effect-on-aid-to-sudan Meanwhile Biden is apparently going to reveal plans to build a port in Gaza and open up another land border crossing for humanitarian aid during SOTU tonight, which makes me wonder if Israel's going to dust off the USS Liberty playbook or regrettably blow up an aid convoy because they saw a Hamas fighter within 10 miles. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/07/biden-us-port-gaza-aid-delivery quote:
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Mar 7, 2024 18:33
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Civilian shipping is explicitly protected under the Geneva Conventions and attacking it is a war crime.
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Mar 7, 2024 18:45
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Stultus Maximus posted:Civilian shipping is explicitly protected under the Geneva Conventions and attacking it is a war crime. It seems like the general consensus of "we must fight this war crime with another series of war crimes" was reached in some circles months ago, unfortunately.
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Mar 7, 2024 18:48
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Stultus Maximus posted:Civilian shipping is explicitly protected under the Geneva Conventions and attacking it is a war crime. Yes that is true. Unfortunately our governments decided the Conventions don't matter in this conflict, so other parties are more likely to also break them. And on the national level our moral authority to say "that's naughty" is rendered laughable.
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Mar 7, 2024 18:51
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| # ? Jun 1, 2024 04:04 |
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pantslesswithwolves posted:Meanwhile Biden is apparently going to reveal plans to build a port in Gaza and open up another land border crossing for humanitarian aid during SOTU tonight, which makes me wonder if Israel's going to dust off the USS Liberty playbook or regrettably blow up an aid convoy because they saw a Hamas fighter within 10 miles. I would expect that the Israelis will take over the port and bury everything in red tape, "regrettably" having to destroy or seize about 90% of the aid, and "oh whoops, all those people showing up for the humanitarian aid spooked us a bit so we machinegunned them  "That is assuming they don't just go "lmao, no, our territory, you're not building a loving port." With regards to the Houthis blowing up everything within reach and it not really affecting Israel, I figure it's a calculated move to make the domestic audience feel like they're on the right side by opposing Israel/the big nebulous melange of "The West," attempting to make the world pay attention to the crisis by causing some trouble because they can't actually reach out and touch those majorly responsible(Israel itself, Israel's Western and regional supporters) OR all of the above.
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Mar 7, 2024 19:10
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