War in Ukraine CE: The Golf War

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Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Orthanc6 posted:

My guess for the maneuvering is a combo of trying to be hard to hit, but also it being hard to steer something moving that fast over waves by remote, and over a connection that's almost certainly getting jammed to some extent.

And since the target has detected the attack, it is already doing evasive maneuvers, in particular hitting pedal to the metal, which creates a wake that can be difficult for a light vessel to cross. That alone could cause it to oversteer and flip around.

# ? Mar 6, 2024 23:01

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 11:51

buglord: Jul 31, 2010; Cheating at a raffle? I sentence you to 1 year in jail! No! Two years! Three! Four! Five years! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah!; Buglord

Qtotonibudinibudet posted:

drat 80something new posts in the ukraine thread what happ--oh

I mean also Sweden is getting NATO-fied tomorrow or something, so it�s not all linguistic posts, right?

# ? Mar 6, 2024 23:20

Charliegrs: Aug 10, 2009

Can you folks please take this derail to the non existent "How to pronounce country names" thread please

# ? Mar 6, 2024 23:22

Mr. Apollo: Nov 8, 2000

Orthanc6 posted:

There is a video apparently published by Russia of go-pro footage from ONBOARD the Cesar Kunikov as it is attacked by drones. No one is seen getting hurt in the video but one of the drones explodes out of frame, and people were almost certainly hurt when that happened so watch at your own discretion.

It says that 10 sea drones attacked the ship and 4 of them were destroyed before reaching the ship.

# ? Mar 6, 2024 23:37

Orthanc6: Nov 4, 2009

Good point it's not flawless, but clearly they still need to be much better at deterring such massively cost-efficient attacks. Wiki for what it's worth says those drones cost $273,000 USD per unit, so a $2.73 million attack sunk an estimated $65 million target.

On the other hand it would be nice if they continue to never learn how to defend the Black Sea Fleet like they have been for the last 2 years. The Kerch clearly has land defenses but the more Russia loses their fleet the easier it will be to attack the bridge by sea and air.

# ? Mar 6, 2024 23:54

LifeSunDeath: Jan 4, 2007; still gay rights and smoke weed every day

Orthanc6 posted:

Good point it's not flawless, but clearly they still need to be much better at deterring such massively cost-efficient attacks. Wiki for what it's worth says those drones cost $273,000 USD per unit, so a $2.73 million attack sunk an estimated $65 million target.

On the other hand it would be nice if they continue to never learn how to defend the Black Sea Fleet like they have been for the last 2 years. The Kerch clearly has land defenses but the more Russia loses their fleet the easier it will be to attack the bridge by sea and air.

Sea-cope-cages

# ? Mar 7, 2024 02:12

Scapegoat: Sep 18, 2004

Are these the Ukraine sea drones or is the US suppling them because they seem like are giving the most bang for their buck followed by HIMARS (which Russia seemingly finally got their first one recently).

# ? Mar 7, 2024 02:54

Henrik Zetterberg: Dec 7, 2007

Scapegoat posted:

Are these the Ukraine sea drones or is the US suppling them because they seem like are giving the most bang for their buck followed by HIMARS (which Russia seemingly finally got their first one recently).

At this rate Ukraine might run out of HIMARS in 23 years.

# ? Mar 7, 2024 03:04

GhostofJohnMuir: Aug 14, 2014; anime is not good

Scapegoat posted:

Are these the Ukraine sea drones or is the US suppling them because they seem like are giving the most bang for their buck followed by HIMARS (which Russia seemingly finally got their first one recently).

their design and deployment is kept pretty hush hush, but the Ukrainians say they're home grown. honestly the first hand experience Ukraine has building, deploying, and iterating on UAV design for the last two years probably means their unmanned aerial and naval vehicles probably are better than their western equivalents

# ? Mar 7, 2024 04:33

Mr. Apollo: Nov 8, 2000

I remember that one of the American aid packages in (I think) 2022 contained some �sea drones� and there was a lot of speculation as to what they were. I wonder if Ukraine used them as a starting point for their own drone program.

# ? Mar 7, 2024 05:31

Charliegrs: Aug 10, 2009

I wonder how the US Navy would fair against sea drones like the ones Ukraine is using.

# ? Mar 7, 2024 06:37

Kith: Sep 17, 2009; You never learn anything
by doing it right.

Pretty well, I'd imagine. The Navy is paranoid about sabotage boats and frogmen, so a lot of tech has gone into making it extremely difficult to sneak up on ships from the water, and they are NOT shy about figuring out what something is by simply shooting at it. Hell, during the Tiger Cruise that my dad took us on as kids, they were letting children take a couple shots at random trash and target buoys from a mounted .50 cal.

# ? Mar 7, 2024 07:31

GhostofJohnMuir: Aug 14, 2014; anime is not good

has any of the sea drones successfully taken down a ship with cwis? i think that's the last hurdle

# ? Mar 7, 2024 08:06

haddedam: Feb 19, 2024; by Fluffdaddy

GhostofJohnMuir posted:

has any of the sea drones successfully taken down a ship with cwis? i think that's the last hurdle

Russia uses a ciws type system.

They are just in complete disrepair.

# ? Mar 7, 2024 08:41

Electric Wrigglies: Feb 6, 2015

One of the best defenses is high speed. Which is I think why the literal combat ships were all meant to be able to cruise around at 30 knots.

# ? Mar 7, 2024 08:51

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

If Wikipedia can be trusted on this, the current Kashtan CIWS isn't installed on any Black Sea Fleet ships

# ? Mar 7, 2024 08:51

Just Another Lurker: May 1, 2009

GhostofJohnMuir posted:

has any of the sea drones successfully taken down a ship with cwis? i think that's the last hurdle

I wonder how far they can depress below the horizontal, it's an issue.

edit: i meant the russian ones.

# ? Mar 7, 2024 09:04

CeeJee: Dec 4, 2001; Oven Wrangler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRyCsv7CcnI

This is a Russian CIWS being used on a (probably abandoned) Somali pirate boat and it's not really looking that effective against a stationary target from a stationary ship. The radar CIWS was designed to work with against incoming missiles does not see such targets and while there is some manual control you're firing from a moving ship at a small moving target. Unless there is some sophisticated stabilizing installed and visual aids to identify the incoming drones it's just Ivan with 1970's controls trying to hit a small target that is poorly lit.

Having your own FPV drones with thermal imaging would be the way to go here or helicopters, but both would need a lot of warning time. Maybe some remote firing station mounted high in the crow's nest?

# ? Mar 7, 2024 09:10

TheDeadlyShoe: Feb 14, 2014

IIRC The stuff on navy ships for killing small boats is mostly machine guns and 25mm. Modern Western CIWS isn't even usually a gun these days.

# ? Mar 7, 2024 09:25

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Electric Wrigglies posted:

One of the best defenses is high speed. Which is I think why the literal combat ships were all meant to be able to cruise around at 30 knots.

Hmm. Interesting. What defenses do symbolic combat ships use? :v:

# ? Mar 7, 2024 10:14

haddedam: Feb 19, 2024; by Fluffdaddy

Nenonen posted:

Hmm. Interesting. What defenses do symbolic combat ships use?

Plot armor.

After all it returned to port under its own power undamaged from the storm and then it was coincidentally decided to scrap the ship.

# ? Mar 7, 2024 10:17

The Artificial Kid: Feb 22, 2002; Plibble

Nenonen posted:

Hmm. Interesting. What defenses do symbolic combat ships use?

I think you mean sea-embolic ships, the ones that travel freely out into the ocean instead of sticking near the coast.

# ? Mar 7, 2024 10:21

Zat: Jan 16, 2008

It's looking extremely likely that Sweden will join NATO today rather than tomorrow. Only hours away.

Hungarian foreign minister & also Orban, as well as Swedish prime and foreign ministers are all in DC, so everything is in place. And then there's even Biden's SOTU speech tonight, so he might appreciate the timing.

e: The White House SOTU speech guest list confirms it:
"Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson of Sweden
Kristersson is the Prime Minister of Sweden. Sweden is formally joining the NATO Alliance on March 7, 2024, becoming the 32nd Ally."

Zat fucked around with this message at 12:47 on Mar 7, 2024

# ? Mar 7, 2024 11:06

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

FSB claims to have killed a Belarusian terrorist who was working for Ukraine in the Karelian town of Olonets (Aunus in Finnish, Anus in Karelian). According to them he was in possession of a Makarov pistol, British plastic explosives and an American detonator.

Is this how low we have stooped? Can't we give our guys NATO pistols?

# ? Mar 7, 2024 12:37

haddedam: Feb 19, 2024; by Fluffdaddy

Nenonen posted:

FSB claims to have killed a Belarusian terrorist who was working for Ukraine in the Karelian town of Olonets (Aunus in Finnish, Anus in Karelian). According to them he was in possession of a Makarov pistol, British plastic explosives and an American detonator.

Is this how low we have stooped? Can't we give our guys NATO pistols?

Nato pistols are too capable and could hurt someone.
Makarov is only good in a concrete room with a floor drain.

# ? Mar 7, 2024 12:59

Comstar: Apr 20, 2007; Are you happy now?

It would seem easier for Ukraine to armour their sea-drones to be proof to light machine gun fire.

Also Hollywood will make a movie at some point of a boat being hunted by drones as a Jaws remake.

Seems a missed opportunity to not show a drone attack with the music from Jaws going off.

# ? Mar 7, 2024 13:05

Dick Ripple: May 19, 2021

Any more armour and you will need a bigger drone boat.

I wonder how they are getting them into the Kerch Strait. Some commercial vessel unloading them?

# ? Mar 7, 2024 13:17

Fuschia tude: Dec 26, 2004; THUNDERDOME LOSER 2019

Comstar posted:

It would seem easier for Ukraine to armour their sea-drones to be proof to light machine gun fire.

Would that work? Is that much armor even possible on a drone, and if so wouldn't it hugely reduce the drone's speed, its most important asset?

# ? Mar 7, 2024 13:19

Blue Footed Booby: Oct 4, 2006; got those happy feet

TheDeadlyShoe posted:

IIRC The stuff on navy ships for killing small boats is mostly machine guns and 25mm. Modern Western CIWS isn't even usually a gun these days.

PHALANX uses 20mm Vulcans, can engage small boats, and is on every class of US ship but the zumwalts.

Blue Footed Booby fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Mar 7, 2024

# ? Mar 7, 2024 13:41

Mr. Apollo: Nov 8, 2000

Speaking of boats, Sweden and The Netherlands are donating 13 CB90 fast assault craft to Norway (10 from Sweden and 3 from The Netherlands).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2024/02/20/sweden-mobilizes-to-save-ukraines-river-force-ten-new-armored-boats-with-remote-guns

quote:

Sweden Mobilizes To Save Ukraine�s River Force: Ten New Armored Boats With Remote Guns

Swedish CB90 boats could survive Russian drone-attacks

While Russia-aligned Republicans in the U.S. Congress continue to block U.S. aid to Ukraine, European countries are scrambling to fill the gap.

Perhaps, most notably, Sweden. A once non-aligned country that applied to join NATO in the months following Russia�s wider invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, and which still is waiting for the last alliance holdout�Hungary�finally to vote in favor of ascension.

Despite still being on the periphery of Europe�s security architecture, Sweden strongly has supported Ukraine. Its latest aid package is its biggest: $680 million worth of artillery shells, anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles and a whopping 30 riverine boats.

The consignment of boats includes 10 CB90 assault craft. The 52-foot CB90 is a riverine classic: thickly-armored and heavily-armed with three crew, space for 21 infantry and a top speed of 40 knots out to a distance of up to 240 miles.

The Swedish navy operates around 140 of the Saab-built boats and has additional copies on order. The Norwegian navy has a squadron of CB90s. The U.S. Navy even bought a couple of the boats for its brief-lived modern riverine force, which disbanded a few years ago.

The American boats infamously strayed into Iranian waters in the Persian Gulf in 2016, triggering a now-forgotten diplomatic crisis.

With their top-mounted remote guns laying down covering fire and their frontal armor shrugging off enemy small arms, a squadron of 10 CB90s could land a company of marines �with a degree of survivability for both the craft and embarked troops,� according to retired U.S. Navy officer Pete Pagano, writing in Proceedings, the professional journal of the U.S. fleet.

Survivability is exactly what the Ukrainian navy�s battered riverine flotilla needs right now. Initially forming with former civilian boats, the navy�s river squadron gradually rearmed with purpose-built military boats supplied by Ukraine�s allies.

But the navy and its sister services have lost scores of their potentially hundreds of boats resupplying the Ukrainian marine corps� narrow bridgehead in Krynky, on the left bank of the Dnipro River in southern Ukraine. The river is just a few miles wide, but Russian artillery, bombs and explosive drones harry the Ukrainian boats by day and night.

Even after installing radio-jammers to help to confuse Russian drones, Ukrainian boat crews have struggled to complete their missions on time. And that has stranded Ukrainian marines on the far side of the river, leaving them exposed to air and artillery attack. �The left bank was like purgatory,� one marine told The New York Times.

The CB90s with their guns and armor should fare better against Russian drones than flimsier boats have done. And that�s good news for Ukraine�s marines, should the navy assign the CB90s to the Krynky resupply mission.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qA7hzre8kVk

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CB90-class_fast_assault_craft

# ? Mar 7, 2024 14:22

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Fuschia tude posted:

Would that work? Is that much armor even possible on a drone, and if so wouldn't it hugely reduce the drone's speed, its most important asset?

It is purported to carry a 850 kg payload, plus enough battery for its long trip. It's not a question of can it be armoured but what is the right balance you want.

# ? Mar 7, 2024 15:28

Mr. Apollo: Nov 8, 2000

Nenonen posted:

It is purported to carry a 850 kg payload, plus enough battery for its long trip. It's not a question of can it be armoured but what is the right balance you want.

Yeah, military tanks/ships/planes/etc. are a trade off between speed, firepower, and armor.

# ? Mar 7, 2024 15:32

LifeSunDeath: Jan 4, 2007; still gay rights and smoke weed every day

the might of the russian navy on display for history yet again, with similar results to the past.

# ? Mar 7, 2024 15:33

Hannibal Rex: Feb 13, 2010

quote:

The 52-foot CB90 is a riverine classic: thickly-armored and heavily-armed with three crew, space for 21 infantry and a top speed of 40 knots out to a distance of up to 240 miles.

Can you transport these over land?

Otherwise, I don't quite see how you get them into the Black Sea, assuming they can't pass the Bosporus and Serbia doesn't allow the transit of war material down the Danube.

# ? Mar 7, 2024 15:39

Slashrat: Jun 6, 2011; YOSPOS

Hannibal Rex posted:

Can you transport these over land?

Otherwise, I don't quite see how you get them into the Black Sea, assuming they can't pass the Bosporus and Serbia doesn't allow the transit of war material down the Danube.

It's about 16 meters long and weighs 13 tons empty. That doesn't seem beyond the realm of possibility to strap whole onto a truck trailer and drive down to Ukraine.

# ? Mar 7, 2024 15:44