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when the episode started I guessed "the villagers are psychic, but stupid and are fighting a manifestation of their fears" but I didn't think I'd be loving right
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Mar 7, 2024 05:30
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I'd love to hear some reports about what happened in that stupid Storyteller village during the occupation. Like did the Cardassians see the giant thundercloud start wrecking poo poo and just shake their heads at the silly superstitious villagers and then go back to their war crimes?
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Mar 7, 2024 05:39
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Atlas Hugged posted:Temple of Doom is a good example of a prequel doing its own thing, so much so that many people don't even realize it is a prequel. When you start thinking about it, it doesn't work because Indy's skepticism in Raiders doesn't make any sense in the context of what he's seen in India, but that's for nerds to care about. When viewing the original Indy trilogy as a whole, you could argue that Indy recognizing the existence of strange arcane “powers” used by the Thuggee doesn’t necessarily mean he’d be immediately willing to also accept and believe in Judeo-Christian legends and myths. Especially when the latter also carries with it the emotional baggage of his relationship with his father and the rejection and dismissal of the those things Jones Sr. obsessed over to the detriment of their family as a whole. But that’s really giving Spielberg and Lucas a lot of unearned credit for something they almost certainly didn’t plan on when making Temple or Raiders.
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Mar 7, 2024 08:02
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There's also the unfortunate part that at least a solid half of Temple of Doom is just kinda not good. At least until they actually make it into the temple itself and then it really picks up.
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Mar 7, 2024 08:25
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nine-gear crow posted:There's also the unfortunate part that at least a solid half of Temple of Doom is just kinda not good. At least until they actually make it into the temple itself and then it really picks up. No way, the opening club stuff is absolutely excellent. Roy Chiao hamming it up as the villain, the Anything Goes dance, the fight afterwards, it’s all great. You could cut the plane crash and the extended jungle trek to Pankot I guess, but even the latter still has the fun scene of Indy and Short Round trying to cheat each other playing cards. The dinner is obviously indefensible for a number of reasons, but Indy and Short Round in the bug-filled trap later that night is fun. Temple has a lot of faults when it comes to racism, but in terms of pacing I’ve never found it to be dull or lacking.
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Mar 7, 2024 09:00
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Timby posted:Storyteller is easily one of the worst episodes of DS9, so I'm glad it happens in the first season. I don't know how or why they came up with the logline of "O'Brien yells at storm cloud," but it's an idea that should have died in the crib. When you put it that way it makes me surprised that we haven't ever seen a variation of "old man yells at cloud" with Miles replacing Abe Simpson.
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Mar 7, 2024 13:58
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Mar 7, 2024 14:32
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zoux posted:He's a messy bitch that loves drama His sniveling chamberlain or whatever in Elysian Kingdom was amazing. counterfeitsaint posted:I'm sure that a prequel is capable of being good, and it might even have happened once or twice, but generally speaking, when they start making prequels is when they start running out of ideas for the actual story, or they've written themselves into a corner and can't move forward anymore. Prequels always seem to change the context of the original story and it's always for the worst. I think this is where prequels often fall down the hardest. So many times - Star Wars, Fantastic Beasts, NuTrek - it's like they get halfway into telling a good story with an original concept, and then go "poo poo, we need to tie it in to the original series" and suddenly you get all kinds of nonsensical or poorly explained things happening because Fate Has Decreed It. SNW seems to be doing a pretty good job of it, but that requires a) a lot of conscious planning and effort, and b) a willingness to deviate from stuff established by the originals if needed (e.g. Khan's timeline sliding).
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Mar 7, 2024 14:43
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And then when they do introduce stuff to connect to other Treks, it feels organic and part of the Strange New World they've made. Scotty's appearance is a great example. He already fits in with the cast like he's been there the whole time.
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Mar 7, 2024 15:15
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Long-running franchises usually get in trouble by doing way too much navel-gazing and becoming recursively more and more about the franchise itself, for its own sake, rather than ultimately being about telling a good story. A prequel is basically the ultimate expression of that. It has even more of a reason to be constrained by what the franchise has already done and not go anywhere new. It's not impossible, though, but it is very very challenging. The few that succeed are either so detached in everything but the basic setting that they almost don't even qualify as prequels, just new stories that happen to be at that point on the timeline; or, they go in a very different direction genre-wise. Andor, for example, is a freaking Star Wars prequel, so obviously that's a huge red flag... but it's a very different type of story about a very different type of character, so it works. And the story remains focused on his character; it's not just throwing lore at you and expecting you to be impressed. The setting is still just a setting, not the main idea.
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Mar 7, 2024 15:40
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I love "The Storyteller" gently caress the haters.
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Mar 7, 2024 16:01
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I'm the millionth person to do this, but a friend of mine is interested in getting into Star Trek. She's seen one episode of TOS ever, and nothing of TNG or DS9 or anything newer. She asked me to come up with a list of a few (less than 10) representative TOS episodes. I'm going with: - Where No Man Has Gone Before - The Corbomite Maneuver - Balance of Terror - Space Seed - The City on the Edge of Forever - Amok Time - The Trouble with Tribbles I know Where No Man Has Gone Before isn't an incredible episode, but it's very representative of Trek. How the show is about the people more than the spaceships, and that there's a LOT of pseudo-supernatural fuckery with the characters, especially in TOS. I left off Arena because while it's the source of a million memes, I feel like The Corbomite Maneuver and Balance of Terror are better "this is Captain Kirk as hell" episodes. Am I missing anything important or amazing? I haven't watched season 3 in at least a decade but don't remember many/any essential episodes. Preemptive "no, I'm not recommending Spock's Brain".
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Mar 7, 2024 16:18
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WhiteHowler posted:I'm the millionth person to do this, but a friend of mine is interested in getting into Star Trek. She's seen one episode of TOS ever, and nothing of TNG or DS9 or anything newer. I did the same with a friend recently, and we also did The Naked Time (the 60s were wild), Mirror, Mirror (the origin of the "evil duplicate has goatee" gimmick) and Journey to Babel (great episode, Spock's background).
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Mar 7, 2024 16:21
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disaster pastor posted:I did the same with a friend recently, and we also did The Naked Time (the 60s were wild), Mirror, Mirror (the origin of the "evil duplicate has goatee" gimmick) and Journey to Babel (great episode, Spock's background). I thought about The Naked Time, but since she's not watching a lot of TOS I wasn't sure how impactful it would be on someone who doesn't know the characters well (the same reason The Naked Now was an incredibly stupid choice as the second episode of TNG). I may add Mirror, Mirror though. It's solid and has assimilated into popular culture, and future Trek series too. I don't remember Journey to Babel at all, so I'll need to watch that one again. Thanks!
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Mar 7, 2024 16:25
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The real problem with prequels is that any new cool stuff they come up with has to be completely destroyed at the end because it wasn't in the original stuff. trade federation vehicles and droids
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Mar 7, 2024 16:26
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WhiteHowler posted:I know Where No Man Has Gone Before isn't an incredible episode Sure it is. In fact, I'd name it one of the best of the entire series. I would add Mirror, Mirror. F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Mar 7, 2024 |
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Mar 7, 2024 16:28
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Sure it is. In fact, I'd name it one of the best of the entire series. So, I like Where No Man Has Gone Before, but it focuses really hard on two characters we've never met before and that apparently throws a lot of new viewers off since it's so early in the series. Already added Mirror, Mirror. I'm not sure how I forgot that one. Is there a single "best" episode from TOS season 3? I'd like to include one for completion's sake, but looking over the list not many of them are memorable to me (other than ones that are memorable for being bad). Edit: I just finished the TNG list. I won't post it here because it's LONG. Like 90 episodes long. Which she's up for, she just asked me to pare it down from the 196 or whatever of the full run. Went with anything that includes Q, Lore, the Klingons, the Borg, major character building (notably Picard and Data), and some of the best one-offs. Also included some dumb-but-fun eps like The Most Toys, A Matter of Time, and (sorry) Rascals. WhiteHowler fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Mar 7, 2024 |
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Mar 7, 2024 16:37
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WhiteHowler posted:So, I like Where No Man Has Gone Before, but it focuses really hard on two characters we've never met before and that apparently throws a lot of new viewers off since it's so early in the series. Oh, OK. I guess I see your point. If you're going for 'new-to-Trek friendly', I'd probably go with either Spectre of the Gun or All Our Yesterdays, or both. Yesterdays in particular is a great Big Three episode.
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Mar 7, 2024 16:41
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I'm a big Spectre of the Gun defender (but I'm a big ENT defender, so take that as you will). There's something wonderful about the episode set being like that of a school play, so minimalist and bare, that lets us know this is all an adventure of the mind more surely than a swirling CGI montage today would. Has: * Crew placed in no-win situation by incredibly advanced beings for their own education /amusement (can't remember which) * Great Chekov scream * Wit and cleverness among the crew to make the gas grenades -- to no avail! * Spock mind melding * Captain Kirk flying jump kicking a fool * The episode ending on a Chekovism -- "The only thing real for him was the woman, so he was never in danger" It's more a feeling than an episode. 8/10.
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Mar 7, 2024 16:52
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WhiteHowler posted:So, I like Where No Man Has Gone Before, but it focuses really hard on two characters we've never met before and that apparently throws a lot of new viewers off since it's so early in the series. for tng, you start someone off using the Enterprise Ds: darmok, data's day, drumhead, disaster. introduces all of the main cast, their roles on the ship and in the narrative dynamic, and gives four varied types of trek story. none of them are the Best TNG, so you arent introducing someone and then saying “and everything else is downhill from here!!” but they are all good trek
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Mar 7, 2024 16:58
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WhiteHowler posted:Is there a single "best" episode from TOS season 3? I'd like to include one for completion's sake, but looking over the list not many of them are memorable to me (other than ones that are memorable for being bad). Probably The Enterprise Incident.
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Mar 7, 2024 17:12
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Squizzle posted:for tng, you start someone off using the Enterprise Ds: darmok, data's day, drumhead, disaster. introduces all of the main cast, their roles on the ship and in the narrative dynamic, and gives four varied types of trek story. none of them are the Best TNG, so you arent introducing someone and then saying “and everything else is downhill from here!!” but they are all good trek This is quite possibly a good post. But part of me asks, "Why not throw a real banger in there to keep interest up?" Show what this Trek thing can do. To that end, I would add Q Who early (though not first; maybe Data's Day?) as an introduction to Q and the Borg (and provide an excuse to skip the pilot) as well as provide a real "WTF?/Did that just happen?" factor.
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Mar 7, 2024 17:16
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Zaroff posted:Probably The Enterprise Incident. Seconded, not only just for Spock's reaction at the end.
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Mar 7, 2024 17:16
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Zaroff posted:Probably The Enterprise Incident. I always forget that's a 3rd season ep, as well as Day of the Dove, which is another I'd consider.
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Mar 7, 2024 17:18
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I'd pick something from the following: Shore Leave Galileo Seven The Squire of Gothos Devil in the Dark The Doomsday Machine
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Mar 7, 2024 17:25
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Mar 7, 2024 17:31
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We're trying to keep it to 10-12 TOS episodes for now. She really wants to jump into TNG, but figures having some background via TOS would be helpful. We went with: Where No Man Has Gone Before The Corbomite Maneuver Balance of Terror Space Seed The City on the Edge of Forever Amok Time Mirror, Mirror Journey to Babel The Trouble with Tribbles Spectre of the Gun All Our Yesterdays I think that's a pretty good intro, while obviously leaving out a few other good episodes. I'm more confident in my TNG list, as I've seen all of those episodes a dozen+ times and know almost all of them by name. All of the ones mentioned on this page of the thread were already included on my list! 
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Mar 7, 2024 17:36
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WhiteHowler posted:We're trying to keep it to 10-12 TOS episodes for now. She really wants to jump into TNG, but figures having some background via TOS would be helpful. I'm not actually sold on doing both Where No Man Has Gone Before and The Corbomite Maneuver; I would tend to pick one or the other and I would personally lean towards The Corbomite Maneuver. They're both a little clunky from being at the very beginnings of production (with the former being the second pilot and the latter being the first production episode, having been filmed nearly a year apart) and are less "representative" than they are introductory. Also, I might catch some flak for this, but I watched All Our Yesterdays a few months ago and was underwhelmed. I definitely wouldn't put it on a list of 'essential' episodes. I feel like there's a relative lack of contemporary commentary episodes. A Private Little War is often cited as "the" Vietnam episode, but I think A Taste of Armageddon better encapsulates the insanity of the Cold War. The Doomsday Machine and The Immunity Syndrome are another either/or possibility, but if I had to choose I'd go with The Immunity Syndrome. My suggestions for third season episodes would be The Enterprise Incident, The Tholian Web, or Is There In Truth No Beauty?, but I also appreciate and respect the Spectre of the Gun suggestion.
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Mar 7, 2024 17:53
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I've never especially liked Is There In Truth No Beauty? and don't quite get the glowing reviews for it here. It's a better episode than the average S3 stuff, to be fair, but it's not nearly as good as highlights from the first or second season. I would go with something "safer" like Spectre or Yesterdays, personally.
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Mar 7, 2024 17:58
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if youre only doing it for tng background, just watch tribbles, balance of terror, and amok time. maybe arena
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Mar 7, 2024 18:02
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there are tons of shouldnt-miss great tos eps, but only if someone is actually interested in engaging tos. if they want tng, give them tng instead of hoops to jump thru before tng e: you could just watch yesteryear and any one of the first four tos movies, and have more than enough to get into tng. you can also just watch tng—it is set up to be accessible to new viewers in nearly every single ep Squizzle fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Mar 7, 2024 |
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Mar 7, 2024 18:04
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Boxturret posted:The real problem with prequels is that any new cool stuff they come up with has to be completely destroyed at the end because it wasn't in the original stuff. Yes but that's also just how the world works anyhow.
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Mar 7, 2024 18:39
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Can you even call it an intro to TOS if you don't have Kirk talking a computer to death at least once? The Changeling or The Ultimate Computer would neatly fill that gap.
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Mar 7, 2024 19:08
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:I've never especially liked Is There In Truth No Beauty? and don't quite get the glowing reviews for it here. It's a better episode than the average S3 stuff, to be fair, but it's not nearly as good as highlights from the first or second season. I would go with something "safer" like Spectre or Yesterdays, personally. TBH if I were doing a "must-watch" list with only ten episodes I would probably just leave off the third season altogether. As far as a "representative" list goes, ITITNB feels representative of the 'trippier' aspects of the third season without being quite as clumsy as The Way To Eden, although there's certainly a strong argument for Spectre of the Gun as well too; IMO that comes down in significant part to knowing your intended audience and how accepting they'll be of the abstraction (deliberately leveraged though it may be) of the hollow set flats. There's also an argument to be made for Metamorphosis over ITITNB, although the ending of the obviously career-driven Federation Commissioner being subsumed/joined by the alien entity to live out her life isolated on a remote planet with a man for love is not something I'd expect to play well with modern audiences.
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Mar 7, 2024 19:10
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Powered Descent posted:Can you even call it an intro to TOS if you don't have Kirk talking a computer to death at least once? The Changeling or The Ultimate Computer would neatly fill that gap. Ooh, that's a fair point. I would personally go with The Ultimate Computer over The Changeling; the writing is perhaps not quite as tight but also omits regrettable moments like describing women as "a mass of conflicting impulses", plus The Ultimate Computer hits just a little harder these days with a lunatic engineer insisting we'll all be better off when his hallucinating computer is in charge. Also, I love William Marshall's performance, and if WhiteHowler's friend is at all into horror she may be delighted to see the guy who played Blackula making an appearance.
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Mar 7, 2024 19:14
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If she wants background for TNG, watch movies not TOS. TOS is insanely dated and also repeatedly contradicts itself and later series.
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Mar 7, 2024 19:14
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zoux posted:If she wants background for TNG, watch movies not TOS. TOS is insanely dated and also repeatedly contradicts itself and later series. might be useful to go back to the OP here.... WhiteHowler posted:I'm the millionth person to do this, but a friend of mine is interested in getting into Star Trek. She's seen one episode of TOS ever, and nothing of TNG or DS9 or anything newer. it doesn't sound like this is coming from "help me understand TNG" but just "give me a selection of TOS so I can appreciate where future productions are coming from also yeah OP after watching those TOS eps be sure to pop in Wrath of Khan
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Mar 7, 2024 19:21
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Ooh, that's a fair point. I would personally go with The Ultimate Computer over The Changeling; the writing is perhaps not quite as tight but also omits regrettable moments like describing women as "a mass of conflicting impulses", plus The Ultimate Computer hits just a little harder these days with a lunatic engineer insisting we'll all be better off when his hallucinating computer is in charge. zoux posted:If she wants background for TNG, watch movies not TOS. TOS is insanely dated and also repeatedly contradicts itself and later series. It's less about story background than pop culture background. She wants to see the dated series out of curiosity and as a contrast. We'll probably do the movies at some point. Or at least the even-numbered ones!
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Mar 7, 2024 19:21
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Also, I love William Marshall's performance, and if WhiteHowler's friend is at all into horror she may be delighted to see the guy who played Blackula making an appearance. Hell yeah. William Marshall is spellbinding.
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Mar 7, 2024 19:30
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zoux posted:If she wants background for TNG, watch movies not TOS. TOS is insanely dated and also repeatedly contradicts itself and later series. If you're tracking expanded universe trivia, sure. For cultural background and actual historical relevance I'd show them TOS (and have, successfully)
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Mar 7, 2024 19:31
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