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Eiba posted:I don't see the link between bringing up propaganda in the context of "Biden old" and the other two issues you brought up. The question of if Biden is too old is purely an issue of perception and judgement, where propaganda, one war or another, is all anyone has to go on. "Healthcare pls" and "maybe we shouldn't be rushing ammunition to Israel so they can level Gaza" are policy questions that might have some propaganda spin, but are clearly based in one's own principles. In what way is the idea that you're not immune to propaganda brought up to dismiss healthcare or arms to Israel? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I just can't imagine it as clearly. Healthcare hasn't come up recently since the dream is dead, but during this entire war it's repeatedly been an accusation in these threads that the only reason anybody could be horrified at what Israel is doing and what Biden is doing to support them is because they're a right wing plant or a fool who's trying to hurt his re-election chances. Killer robot posted:It wouldn't happen nearly so much if it wasn't people insisting they're the leftmost voices in the room constantly being absolutely snookered by the most transaprently spurious claims in the name of owning the libs. There's no set of glib catchphrases with Sarcastic Capitals that will mock that away. It's not a catchphrase, it's a quote about how the childe does not understand Biden's genius in providing aid with one hand and bombs with the other. Raenir Salazar posted:This seems very reductive, would you prefer there's no aid coming through? Politics involves compromise; and this is clearly in an multistage multipart effort to arrange for a long lasting ceasation of hostilities and continued and prompt administration of aid. You're not really thinking big picture or long term here. Dem propaganda says we're the good guys, therefore this is a hypothetical universe where Israel isn't slaughtering civilians with the bombs we give them.
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Mar 9, 2024 18:23
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Exactly. That's how you can see the impact of the propaganda. "Biden old" is objectively irrelevant, because Trump is just as old, far more obviously mush brained, and also malicious and dishonest and evil and every other negative trait including that he is crass and lacking in style and he uses scotch tape to hold his neckties for Christ's sake. Biden being old isn't irrelevant at all, it's just that the focus on his age is manufactured for the benefit of the worst possible people in the country and making it a chief concern helps fuckin nobody but those worst possible people
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Mar 9, 2024 18:31
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Byzantine posted:Dem propaganda says we're the good guys, therefore this is a hypothetical universe where Israel isn't slaughtering civilians with the bombs we give them. I'm not sure this falls at all under "Dem propaganda", maybe "US propaganda" as its the political consensus of mainstream politics in the US, but not specific to Biden or the Democrats; rather they are operating within a cultural and political framework in which they themselves are constrained by it. Much in the sameway China and Chinese politics are similarly constrained by a desire to avoid losing face even in circumstances they (Chinese politicians) know that the current course of action is not in their long term best interest re: China: Fragile Superpower by Susan Shirk as an example of this that's readily applicable to US politics and this issue. As a result I think you've misunderstood my point and got cause and effect a bit mixed up. The political consensus is X, consequently because of X Dems are locked into a situation they aren't able to take decisive moral leadership regarding and instead have to thread the needle of giving lipservice to the political reality on one hand even if it is still tragic, while doing what they can quietly on the other. The point of this is to provide a nuanced response to the idea that "Biden supports genocide" or that this is a result of "Dem propaganda" and definitely nothing to do with "Biden Old".
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Mar 9, 2024 18:37
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Eiba posted:I don't see the link between bringing up propaganda in the context of "Biden old" and the other two issues you brought up. The question of if Biden is too old is purely an issue of perception and judgement, where propaganda, one war or another, is all anyone has to go on. "Healthcare pls" and "maybe we shouldn't be rushing ammunition to Israel so they can level Gaza" are policy questions that might have some propaganda spin, but are clearly based in one's own principles. In what way is the idea that you're not immune to propaganda brought up to dismiss healthcare or arms to Israel? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I just can't imagine it as clearly. Propaganda does have a lot of influence on how people perceive even fact-based policy issues. For example, "healthcare pls" in 2009 was twisted into "government death panels are going to take away your doctor and sentence grandma to death". Similarly, the fact that anyone thinks a ceasefire will put an end to the Israeli genocide of Palestinians is a great example of just how effective propaganda has been all this time. And the fact that the American populace suddenly cares about Israel's indiscriminate massacres of Palestinians, after ignoring all of that for roughly seven decades, is definitely the result of some sort of shift in the propaganda landscape.
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Mar 9, 2024 18:40
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Raenir Salazar posted:I'm not sure this falls at all under "Dem propaganda", maybe "US propaganda" as its the political consensus of mainstream politics in the US, but not specific to Biden or the Democrats; rather they are operating within a cultural and political framework in which they themselves are constrained by it. Much in the sameway China and Chinese politics are similarly constrained by a desire to avoid losing face even in circumstances they (Chinese politicians) know that the current course of action is not in their long term best interest re: China: Fragile Superpower by Susan Shirk as an example of this that's readily applicable to US politics and this issue. Sending a carrier group to provide air and special forces support and fast tracking military aid to Israel is more than enough nuance for "Biden supports genocide" since he has directed actions that have supported a genocide.
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Mar 9, 2024 18:42
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Main Paineframe posted:And the fact that the American populace suddenly cares about Israel's indiscriminate massacres of Palestinians, after ignoring all of that for roughly seven decades, is definitely the result of some sort of shift in the propaganda landscape. It does, but not in the way you believe.
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Mar 9, 2024 18:43
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Raenir Salazar posted:I'm not sure this falls at all under "Dem propaganda" If Generic Republican President was doing exactly what Biden is doing in this exact situation, would you give them the benefit of the doubt that this is a hypothetical universe where they aren't assisting in population reduction?
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Mar 9, 2024 18:44
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Exactly. That's how you can see the impact of the propaganda. "Biden old" is objectively irrelevant, because Trump is just as old, far more obviously mush brained, and also malicious and dishonest and evil and every other negative trait including that he is crass and lacking in style and he uses scotch tape to hold his neckties for Christ's sake.
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Mar 9, 2024 18:46
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Byzantine posted:Healthcare hasn't come up recently since the dream is dead, but during this entire war it's repeatedly been an accusation in these threads that the only reason anybody could be horrified at what Israel is doing and what Biden is doing to support them is because they're a right wing plant or a fool who's trying to hurt his re-election chances. Doubling down on the way you meet effort with no effort isn't really helping your case re glib catchphrases. It's also really notable how you want to steer the topic of leftist-presenting people getting suckered (chartably, suckered, because the alternative is willful deceit) into right-wing narratives that don't even advance leftist causes in theory, into a different topic you feel more comfortable defending. Good olde motte and baiiey. I know plenty of people that are harshly critical of Biden on Israel that don't go into senile pudding-brain Biden vs vital and energetic Trump scrapings from chud Facebook. I know plenty of people who backed Bernie hard in 2020 that didn't immediately fall into the idea that it's a moral imperative not to support someone as old as Biden for president because he might drop dead at any moment even if his mind is clear. There's no space here to hide behind them because the conversation about age is uncomfortable.
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Mar 9, 2024 18:49
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Bel Shazar posted:Sending a carrier group to provide air and special forces support and fast tracking military aid to Israel is more than enough nuance for "Biden supports genocide" since he has directed actions that have supported a genocide. The carrier group sent barely within a week after the events of October 7th? I don't think that at all supports the claim. As to the second point about fast tracked military aid I already responded to earlier on the previous pages for why it doesn't necessitate "supports genocide" as the only possible meaning. Byzantine posted:If Generic Republican President was doing exactly what Biden is doing in this exact situation, would you give them the benefit of the doubt that this is a hypothetical universe where they aren't assisting in population reduction? A generic Republican president wouldn't be doing exactly what Biden is doing though so this isn't a particularly meaningful question, it's like asking "But what if the Dems were bad, would you still support them then?" but just without the middle man. Given the difference between Dem and Republican administrations regarding foreign policy I do think Dems deserve more of the benefit of the doubt within the context of "US Imperialism" than Republicans and particularly neocons; but also given *Reagan* of all people telling Israel to knock it off way back when, I'm not even sure if your "generic" republican be said to whole heartedly support genocide either to be fair and even handed about it. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Mar 9, 2024 |
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Mar 9, 2024 18:50
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Main Paineframe posted:Similarly, the fact that anyone thinks a ceasefire will put an end to the Israeli genocide of Palestinians Who believes this, MP? Please be specific, because I haven't seen a single person anywhere suggest this.
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Mar 9, 2024 18:52
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Raenir Salazar posted:The carrier group sent barely within a week after the events of October 7th? I don't think that at all supports the claim. As to the second point about fast tracked military aid I already responded to earlier on the previous pages for why it doesn't necessitate "supports genocide" as the only possible meaning. The genocide has been ongoing for years. Believe what you want, but Biden supports genocide. The US is actively funding and supporting the genocide of Palestinians. Has been for years and is making no steps to stop.
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Mar 9, 2024 18:52
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Staluigi posted:Biden being old isn't irrelevant at all, it's just that the focus on his age is manufactured for the benefit of the worst possible people in the country and making it a chief concern helps fuckin nobody but those worst possible people It's irrelevant in the sense that it's a term that drops out of the equation because it's equally present on both sides, like being white, or male.
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Mar 9, 2024 18:56
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hooman posted:
I can't speak for HA, but I do believe that they may have been referring to the inability for Dems to poison the Trump well enough to prevent Trump from getting elected in 2016. Because the Dem propaganda machine did a piss poor job of convincing anyone not already planning to vote for Hillary that she was an adequate candidate. The Dem propaganda machine was wholly incapable of pushing back against 30+ years of the right wing smearing of Hillary Clinton and the vitriol that has been levied at her since Newt and Rush did their thing. There were tons of legitimate reasons to dislike Hillary and think she was a terrible candidate. Her campaign was godawful and she made horrendous missteps. She is far more conservative than I would like to see in a Democratic candidate (but that has been true for pretty much every Democratic candidate in my lifetime). Nevertheless the Bernie campaign did do a lot to influence the Democratic policy platform in 2016 and actually did succeed in pushing her to the left. But the data shows that by and large the left DID suck it up and largely vote for Hillary. They like to blame "Bernie Bros" for the loss in 2016, but the fact of the matter is that the Dem propaganda machine was 100% incapable of pushing back against the hatred and spite directed at Hillary that had affected everyone basically any further right than Al Gore. It was the moderates that couldn't suck it up for Hilldawg and would rather see the relative political unknown of Turnp in 2016, and it was the moderates in 2020 that said "oh god what were we thinking" that led to Biden's victory in 2020. She never had a chance with the white "middle class" and I don't think there was much any Dem propaganda could have done about that. Professor Beetus fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Mar 9, 2024 |
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Mar 9, 2024 19:02
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's irrelevant in the sense that it's a term that drops out of the equation because it's equally present on both sides, like being white, or male. fair there's also the part where if you actually get to compare the two, trump has lost the overwhelmingly larger share of his gooblies. its gettin weird to watch his rally performances
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Mar 9, 2024 19:11
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Yeah the issue isn't that Biden is old, and perhaps not as spry as he used to be, its that there's an inordinate amount of attention and focus on his age, which the media is definitely responsible for because they want a horse race, while Trump having many of the same issues is given a pass because ultimately Republicans are allowed and are given a pass to be unhinged. The consequence of that is what's at issue.
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Mar 9, 2024 19:23
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Raenir Salazar posted:Yeah the issue isn't that Biden is old, and perhaps not as spry as he used to be, its that there's an inordinate amount of attention and focus on his age, which the media is definitely responsible for because they want a horse race, while Trump having many of the same issues is given a pass because ultimately Republicans are allowed and are given a pass to be unhinged. The consequence of that is what's at issue. The Liberal New York Times treatment of this has been enraging. There's nothing Biden does that isn't looked at through the lens of BIDEN OLD. 'Biden rises above age problems to deliver rousing speech' is basically how they are rolling.
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Mar 9, 2024 19:26
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Biden's age is a legit concern I certainly don't want him dying and Harris taking the spot, taking every slight misspeak or stutter when he's stuttered for his billion year political career as evidence that "his brain is mush" or that he suddenly is mentally broken is just bullshit trying to push a false narrative.
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Mar 9, 2024 19:34
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koolkal posted:It doesn't help when liberals try to ban left-wing leaning sources: https://deadline.com/2024/03/tiktok-trump-biden-1235850633/ in addition to what others are saying, headlines on this are dumb, the very first paragraph says bytedance gets a choice between divestment or a US ban I have trouble working up too much rage over the institutional capitalist rearrangement of a major social media outlet, and claiming that this would be the end of tiktok or of useful leftist content is... well, it's what bytedance would like you to believe https://time.com/6898845/tiktok-ban-bill-us-congress-what-to-know/ the national security concerns are overblown but the actual impact is a big ol who cares (unless you're bytedance). They actually have a third option, which is to rearrange such that tiktok as a platform is no longer especially associated with the Chinese wing of the company. I'm not entirely sure how that works out in practice but I bet it would be annoying for Bytedance and cost money, so as capitalists, they're against it.
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Mar 9, 2024 19:35
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I bet Trump skips the debates against Biden I mean, it's not like it matters anyway, conservatives have lost every debate they've been in for decades(because they refuse to ever engage in good faith) and it doesn't seem to make any difference
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Mar 9, 2024 19:39
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Google Jeb Bush posted:in addition to what others are saying, headlines on this are dumb, the very first paragraph says bytedance gets a choice between divestment or a US ban Selling it is exactly what made Twitter into current Twitter (or X!). https://thehill.com/policy/technology/4520906-kevin-oleary-suggests-he-will-buy-tiktok-if-proposed-ban-advances/ There's already right-wing billionaires salivating and lining up to create a 2nd X but with a lot more US users and younger ones too.
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Mar 9, 2024 19:41
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koolkal posted:Selling it is exactly what made Twitter into current Twitter (or X!). What makes Tiktok a leftist source?
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Mar 9, 2024 19:46
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Byzantine posted:If Generic Republican President was doing exactly what Biden is doing in this exact situation, would you give them the benefit of the doubt that this is a hypothetical universe where they aren't assisting in population reduction? Generic Republican President wouldn't be doing exactly what Biden is doing in this exact situation, though. They would be doing things that are much worse, while putting much less pressure on Israel and giving Israel much more assistance while demonstrating much less concern for Palestinian lives. That's what people mean when they say that the Republicans are worse on Israel/Palestine than the Democrats are. And Trump was infamously a lot worse on Israel/Palestine than even a Generic Republican would be. Majorian posted:Who believes this, MP? Please be specific, because I haven't seen a single person anywhere suggest this. I punched "genocide ceasefire" into Google and one of the first results was titled "'Stop the genocide’: New York protesters demand end to Israel’s war on Gaza". Scroll down the Google results a bit and I see another article "UN experts say ceasefire needed as Palestinians at 'grave risk of genocide'". Sounds like the headline writers, at the very least, don't think there's been a genocide of all the Palestinians already going on for decades.
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Mar 9, 2024 19:48
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socialsecurity posted:What makes Tiktok a leftist source? I don't know where this perception comes from, like any social media I'm sure there is a leftist circlejerk happening but also that's where Tate and Peterson brainwash kids.
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Mar 9, 2024 19:49
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Main Paineframe posted:I punched "genocide ceasefire" into Google and one of the first results was titled "'Stop the genocide’: New York protesters demand end to Israel’s war on Gaza". Scroll down the Google results a bit and I see another article "UN experts say ceasefire needed as Palestinians at 'grave risk of genocide'". Sounds like the headline writers, at the very least, don't think there's been a genocide of all the Palestinians already going on for decades. As you yourself acknowledge, those are headlines. A ceasefire is probably going to be necessary to end the genocide, so I don't think it's productive to demean people calling for one.
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Mar 9, 2024 19:51
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Bidens age doesn't bother me because he relies on competent advisors. If he dies in office, there will be a seamless transition of power and continued pursuit of the Biden platform (im even hopeful for improvement on foreign relations and sustainability policy wise). Trumps age doesn't influence my vote because a fascist half his age would still be a threat that must be countered. But if trump dies in office (he won't win in november, but we can pretend) it will be a wild ride.
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Mar 9, 2024 19:55
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mobby_6kl posted:It's owned by China = communist! I'm actually confused because suggesting that Tik Tok is a left wing source would be like, actually saying Congress is correct in their assessment that TikTok serves the interests of the PRC?
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Mar 9, 2024 19:56
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Raenir Salazar posted:I'm actually confused because suggesting that Tik Tok is a left wing source would be like, actually saying Congress is correct in their assessment that TikTok serves the interests of the PRC? At that point I'd call it an Authoritarian source over leftist.
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Mar 9, 2024 19:57
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mobby_6kl posted:It's owned by China = communist! TikTok isn’t creating false support for Palestine. It’s just reflecting what’s already there. www.vox.com - Wed, 13 Dec 2023 posted:For the past month, TikTok has tried to assure business leaders, influencers, and Jewish organizations that it isn’t promoting anti-Israel or antisemitic speech on its platform. CEO Shou Chew has reportedly met with executives at Tinder, Facebook, and the Anti-Defamation League, among others, to discuss moderation and misinformation, while its head of operations held a private video call with more than a dozen Jewish TikTokers and celebrities, including Sacha Baron Cohen and Amy Schumer, during which Cohen accused the app of “creating the biggest antisemitic movement since the Nazis.” (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 9, 2024 19:58
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mawarannahr posted:It is a pretty mainstream opinion that TikTok is biased toward "the left" and this gets used in different ways by people, as Vox writes So the Al Gore Rhythm pushed Tiktok videos automatically because it was trending. Tiktok went out of it's way to say it doesn't do this intentionally. How does this make Tiktok more of a leftist source than any other source that automatically pushes it's content that is trending?
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Mar 9, 2024 20:02
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mawarannahr posted:It is a pretty mainstream opinion that TikTok is biased toward "the left" and this gets used in different ways by people, as Vox writes That's a pretty dubious connection to make and doesn't really support the assertion that Congress is trying to ban tiktok because its a "left wing source" otherwise why wouldn't Congress ban Something Awful? Or Twitter? Or anywhere else where there's a lot of young progressives and leftists on the platform? It seems clear to me that Congressmen are just providing an example while gesturing vaguely at China but the core issue to them is "China" not the specific views in question. As seen in this sentence: quote:Still, a group of mostly Republican Congress members who have long called for the US to ban TikTok have used the war to re-air their grudges against the app. “TikTok is a tool China uses to spread propaganda to Americans, now it’s being used to downplay Hamas terrorism,” wrote Senator Marco Rubio on X, formerly known as Twitter, in November. They've always been wanting to do this and this is just a convenient excuse, not that because they think Tiktok is leftist, if it was an American company it wouldn't be threatened with being banned; it'd just be the same things other Republicans have been suggesting about revoking Section 230 because they dislike progressive views in general on social media, but they haven't threatened banning Twitter afaik. e to add: And specifically absurd to claim that this is liberals trying to ban a leftist source. Its mainly Republicans and some natsec dems playing along regarding a specifically non-American outlet. I don't think anyone is trying to ban Al-Jeezira either afaik.
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Mar 9, 2024 20:04
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socialsecurity posted:So the Al Gore Rhythm pushed Tiktok videos automatically because it was trending. Tiktok went out of it's way to say it doesn't do this intentionally. How does this make Tiktok more of a leftist source than any other source that automatically pushes it's content that is trending? I dunno, I don't have an opinion about it. I thought the article might help someone understand where this perception comes from.
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Mar 9, 2024 20:05
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Raenir Salazar posted:That's a pretty dubious connection to make and doesn't really support the assertion that Congress is trying to ban tiktok because its a "left wing source" otherwise why wouldn't Congress ban Something Awful? Or Twitter? Or anywhere else where there's a lot of young progressives and leftists on the platform? It seems clear to me that Congressmen are just providing an example while gesturing vaguely at China but the core issue to them is "China" not the specific views in question. They haven't threatened banning Twitter because it's owned and manipulated by a right wing billionaire who spends all his time promoting the American right wing. It's very bizarre that there are now multiple posters in here that have referenced Twitter as some sort of leftist or liberal social media website. Do any of you actually use social media or Twitter?
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Mar 9, 2024 20:08
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2024 and people still think “all I see” = “all that’s there” on social media.
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Mar 9, 2024 20:09
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koolkal posted:They haven't threatened banning Twitter because it's owned and manipulated by a right wing billionaire who spends all his time promoting the American right wing. So what makes Tiktok a leftist source?
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Mar 9, 2024 20:10
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mobby_6kl posted:It's owned by China = communist! This is exactly it, for racist reasons. Remember when Tom Cotton harassed the TikTok CEO Chew Shou Zi as being suspected of being a member of the Chinese Communist Party despite being a Singaporean and getting an MBA from Harvard Business School in 2010? His wife is Taiwanese-American, born in Virginia. Comparing him to another social media executive who has had similar controversies, Elon Musk, is that Musk is a white South African and he hasn't been punished in the same way for worse behavior, such as doing nothing about the racism and antisemtitism on his platform, defending CSAM, and interfering in military operations via Starlink. If this goes through, China really should cut off access to the Chinese market to the American tech sector and Western media outlets like Murdoch's enterprises and Disney and let us see how we like it.
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Mar 9, 2024 20:13
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mawarannahr posted:I dunno, I don't have an opinion about it. I thought the article might help someone understand where this perception comes from. The crux of the issue is that not only is the perception wrong, but the article you linked doesn't even support the claim of "liberals (we both know this means dems) are trying to ban a leftist source" OR, that TikTok is actually a leftist source; only that its alleggated to spreading harmful but not necessarily leftist views. koolkal posted:They haven't threatened banning Twitter because it's owned and manipulated by a right wing billionaire who spends all his time promoting the American right wing. What are you talking about? Where does this support your claim that liberals are trying to ban a leftist source? Where is the evidence that it isn't because a right wing billionaire doesn't own TikTok? If it was Soros would you still think they would try to ban it and get as much support in doing so? Afaik none of the news outlets Soros owns in the US have been threatened with being banned. Do you know of anything different? 1. Can you describe what makes TikTok a specifically leftist news outlet, and that this is why its being targeted and no other reasonable explanation. 2. How is it specifically Liberals? Not like 1-2 liberals who are more conservative or associated with NatSec issues and interests, liberals as a whole? Also when have anyone claimed that twitter is a leftist or liberal social media site? I only claimed there's a lot of leftist views on twitter which is true?
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Mar 9, 2024 20:16
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Raenir Salazar posted:The crux of the issue is that not only is the perception wrong, but the article you linked doesn't even support the claim of "liberals (we both know this means dems) are trying to ban a leftist source" OR, that TikTok is actually a leftist source; only that its alleggated to spreading harmful but not necessarily leftist views. If anything, the article builds on the notion proposed by mobby: quote:
quote:I don't know where this perception comes from, mawarannahr fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Mar 9, 2024 |
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Mar 9, 2024 20:20
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koolkal posted:Selling it is exactly what made Twitter into current Twitter (or X!). Please explain how Twitter was left leaning prior to the sale, rather than just less right wing.
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Mar 9, 2024 20:25
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Young Freud posted:This is exactly it, for racist reasons. Remember when Tom Cotton harassed the TikTok CEO Chew Shou Zi as being suspected of being a member of the Chinese Communist Party despite being a Singaporean and getting an MBA from Harvard Business School in 2010? His wife is Taiwanese-American, born in Virginia. Comparing him to another social media executive who has had similar controversies, Elon Musk, is that Musk is a white South African and he hasn't been punished in the same way for worse behavior, such as doing nothing about the racism and antisemtitism on his platform, defending CSAM, and interfering in military operations via Starlink. That guy might well be a racist, I know nothing about him. The CEO might not be CCP but it's a mainland Chinese company headquartered in Beijing and having them in control of recommendation algorithms raises some reasonable concerns imo. Regardless, this doesn't mean it's a "leftist source" because China isn't leftist even if it does in fact control how the app works.
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Mar 9, 2024 20:27
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