Slavvy posted:

My favorite scene in any of these is when a lady nurse bravely goes out into no man's land after a stalled attack to treat the wounded despite the dashing handsome sergeant telling her not to. A wily German squad start closing in on her, repeatedly crouch-strafing around to dodge the sergeant's hmg fire in an open field. Eventually this spurs the whole company to restart the assault and carry the day with terrible casualties. The brave sergeant runs over to the nurse, turns her over, the music swells, their eyes meet, and he backhands her in the face and tells her those men are dead because of her.

Slavvy posted:

My favorite scene in any of these is when a lady nurse bravely goes out into no man's land after a stalled attack to treat the wounded despite the dashing handsome sergeant telling her not to. A wily German squad start closing in on her, repeatedly crouch-strafing around to dodge the sergeant's hmg fire in an open field. Eventually this spurs the whole company to restart the assault and carry the day with terrible casualties. The brave sergeant runs over to the nurse, turns her over, the music swells, their eyes meet, and he backhands her in the face and tells her those men are dead because of her.

gradenko_2000 posted:

dudes rock

Slavvy posted:

My favorite scene in any of these is when a lady nurse bravely goes out into no man's land after a stalled attack to treat the wounded despite the dashing handsome sergeant telling her not to. A wily German squad start closing in on her, repeatedly crouch-strafing around to dodge the sergeant's hmg fire in an open field. Eventually this spurs the whole company to restart the assault and carry the day with terrible casualties. The brave sergeant runs over to the nurse, turns her over, the music swells, their eyes meet, and he backhands her in the face and tells her those men are dead because of her.

Mister Bates posted:

believe it or not that director's other Civil War films are even worse about that, Gettysburg is the least reactionary of his output

Gods and Generals is pretty overt white nationalist propaganda that almost completely drops any pretext of a balanced portrayal in favor of casting the Confederates as the heroic protagonists of the war and the Union as sympathetic misguided villains

The battle scenes are on about the same quality level as Gettysburg's (bad - this may be sacrilege but I don't think watching what amounts to home movies of a Civil War reenactment is all that interesting) and everything surrounding them is way worse. You can't even really watch the movie as an entertaining exercise in mockery, because it's also about four years long and most of it is just boring instead of funny

quote:

Pvt. John H. Worsham of the 21st Virginia Infantry described in his diary seeing the effects of a solid shot that descended into a line of men:

I heard a thud on my right, as if one had been struck with a heavy fist. Looking around, I saw a man at my side standing erect, with his head off, a stream of blood spurting a foot or more from his neck. As I turned farther around, I saw three others lying on the ground, all killed by this cannon shot. The man standing was a captain . . . and his brains and blood bespattered the face and clothing of one in my company. This was the second time I saw four men killed by one shot. Each time the shot struck as it was descending—the first man had his head taken off, the next was shot through the breast, the next through the stomach, and the fourth had all his bowels torn out.

Typo posted:

as a kid I watched the pickett's charge scene countless times cuz "holy poo poo the confederates getting blown up look cool"

I tried re-wtaching it and it just struck me how -bloodless- the whole thing was. Like for example in actual accounts of civil war when a regiment gets shelled you had incredibly horrifying things like men blown apart and limbs flying everywhere. Men and horses would be disembowel and it was a like a slaughterhouse.

In the movie it just look like artillery rounds blew ppl out of the way slightly when it exploded

Mister Bates posted:

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

I was at a living history conference and Parks Canada was talking about how the Seven Years War, 1812 and British Garrison/Canadian Militia reenactors, on top of being old and fat, all want to be grenadiers, highlanders, rangers and hussars. They cannot convince anyone to just be a private of some numbered regiment of the line, let alone a driver or farrier.

It's a very funny problem to have because Parks Canada could just pay students to do it as part of the university summer jobs program, they already do at Fort Henry and the Quebec Citadel, which would solve the old and fat thing, but then they wouldn't have them for the rest of the year. They (Parks) also prefer the parade ground appearance of the post 1812 British Army in garrison, before the Canadians took over the forts around 1840, but that's a separate issue.

Though, didn't the CSA wear mismatched uniforms of off-grey and greyish brown? Seems like a much easier problem to solve. Just pay college students at the Pennsylvania and Virginia schools to do it over the summer?

Mister Bates posted:

in particular they're obsessed with zouaves, everybody wants to be a zouave, there's zouaves at basically every reenactment, even though there were only Confederate zouave units for a few months very early in the war because they couldn't keep them consistently supplied with the uniforms. there are probably more guys pretending to be zouaves at present than there were actual zouaves at any point in the war.

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

Dressing up as Zouaves, because the Second French Empire is the height of military power, just before the Franco-Prussian War is also pretty funny ngl.

Kind of like every military in the world rushing to get Multicam and Ops Core helmets rn.

Typo posted:

as a kid I watched the pickett's charge scene countless times cuz "holy poo poo the confederates getting blown up look cool"

I tried re-wtaching it and it just struck me how -bloodless- the whole thing was. Like for example in actual accounts of civil war when a regiment gets shelled you had incredibly horrifying things like men blown apart and limbs flying everywhere. Men and horses would be disembowel and it was a like a slaughterhouse.

In the movie it just look like artillery rounds blew ppl out of the way slightly when it exploded

quote:

Fulda Gap

Ah, the famous Fulda Gap. What Cold War source about a potential World War III conflict has not written about this location? Due to the constricted terrain in this part of West Germany, the actual axis of advance would be narrow, with the offensive corridor running through the Kinzig Valley.


The Fulda Gap Army General  campaign centers on the initial Warsaw Pact assault on Fulda, including their efforts to break out of the valley. The Soviet's overarching objective on this part of the front is Frankfurt-am-Main, a key logistical hub and military target, housing the American V Corps HQ. The immediate aim of the campaign is to breach NATO defenses around Fulda, enter the Kinzig Valley, and break out towards Frankfurt.

In Fulda Gap, you will see the full might of the Soviet 8th Guards Army arrayed against a light screen of American and West German forces. You might have guessed, and you guessed right, that the biggest among these troops is the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment manning posts such as the infamous O.P. Alpha.


With devastating air attacks, continuous artillery bombardments, and wave after wave of Soviet motorized riflemen, the NATO defenses must be pried open. Warsaw Pact tank divisions wait to exploit the success and use their mobility and firepower to tear through NATO’s rear areas.

In Fulda Gap, both sides race against time, as the longer NATO can resist, the more reinforcements can be brought to shore up its defenses. On the other hand, the Warsaw Pact’s war plans underline the critical importance of speed and initiative in their attempt to break out of the Kinzig Valley; getting bogged down on the frontier would be considered a disastrous failure.

Fulda Gap Insights


In the campaign, NATO’s battalions are clearly outnumbered. Yet, remember that the 11th ACR squadrons are each worth a small brigade and can beat back several enemy attacks - even by numerically superior forces. The American cavalrymen Achilles' heel is Fatigue, however. They might win a few fights, but they’ll end up spent and unable to continue to do battle.

You must preserve them as much as possible. Fight only the “good fight,” even if you can win more. By chance, a few of the forward NATO battalions, whether West German or American, are close enough to support the ACR’s squadrons or replace them on the line if needed. Besides, additional reinforcements are rushing to the front. In some instances, you’ll be able to select which fresh units you want to deploy, including Green Berets from the 1-10th Special Forces Group.



Although the 11th ACR will have to prevent the enemy from reaching Frankfurt, you can trade some space for time. If you must, fall back. It would be suicide to try to hold back the Soviet Army on the Fulda-Bad Hersfeld line.

The Soviets


For the Warsaw Pact, the numbers are in your favor, but a tight schedule hamstrings you. Your superiors are breathing down your neck for not falling behind the operation’s strict timetable. You can choose your combat units from the start, forming your strategy to overcome NATO defenses in the Fulda Gap. For instance, select the 21st Independent Flame Battalion (with its Buratino and TO-55) to immolate NATO resistance at close range, or opt for the powerful 303rd Guards Artillery Brigade (2S5 Giantsint-S) instead. If you can’t break NATO’s resolve, further reinforcements will come at a cost.Time is of the essence. Losses are irrelevant. Don’t let NATO delay you too long, especially the 11th ACR. Crush the Americans quickly, even if it will cost you dearly. If you don’t achieve a breakthrough, reinforcing NATO units will undoubtedly hamper or even halt your advance through the Kinzig Valley.

quote:

Let’s skip ahead a couple of days of very tough fighting. When we return to the Frankfurt-Fulda axis a week later, World War III is well underway. 

Highway 66 is a massive showdown on the CENTAG front. Both sides will have access to a large number of units and formations spread out across a map that stretches from Bad Hersfeld in the north, Fulda in the middle, and Würzburg in the south.

The Soviet offensive through the Fulda Gap has penetrated far through the Kinzig Valley, along Autobahn 66. However, the communist forces failed to seize Frankfurt, being held at the gates by a solidifying defense of American and West German forces. A deadly stalemate has descended on the front.

One more push by the Soviet 8th Guards Army will be made to seize Frankfurt, throwing the last Warsaw Pact reserves into combat. However, NATO is stronger than ever, with elements from U.S. V Corps and VII Corps backed by part of the Bundewehr’s III. Korps getting ready to take the fight to the enemy. Powerful NATO forces are concentrated on the flanks, choosing to attack north or south of Frankfurt.

This means that Highway 66 is, by far, the largest Army General campaign in WARNO. Furthermore, it is the culmination of all the CENTAG campaigns that came before, with commanders able to play out their own strategy to achieve victory. NATO has a chance of success attacking over the flanks, while the Warsaw Pact can strike - in one massive push - through Hanau and seize Frankfurt in a frontal attack.

Highway 66 Insights

This is the big one. Highway 66 lets you play with most of NATO’s US V and VII Corps and West-German III Korps, plus other elements, versus the whole of the Soviet 8th Guards Army and East German III Armee.

Many of the battalions have already been engaged in the opening phase of the campaign (featured in Fulda Gap and various WARNO Operations) and are now a shadow of their former selves. Battalions from the Soviet vanguard divisions and most of the U.S. V Corps start the campaign with losses, depleted units, and some Fatigue.

Aside from the size of Highway 66, the first turn of the campaign allows you to plan the axis of your main thrust. This increases replayability, especially online versus players of flesh and blood.

Where does the main blow land?
NATO receives the U.S. 1st Armored Division from the VII Corps. You can choose where to deploy it when the formation becomes available. An option is Miltenberg, behind the main battle line, which can be used as a reserve to reinforce or even counter-attack the center. However, there it might encounter some of the Soviet Army’s strongest units. Or select Würzburg, at the extreme right of your front. While a more isolated location, it is still a good place to strike the Soviet 8th Guards Army line of communications, defended by weaker units ... but that will leave your battle-weary center to fend for itself.

For the Warsaw Pact, you have the choice to deploy the Nationale Volksarmee’s 7. Panzerdivision, the last fresh armored reserve. It can be posted on the right flank, the shortest way to combat, where the West and East Germans are still fighting for control over Alsfeld (see Bruderkrieg). Or deploy them more centrally, near Fulda, where they will have to travel but have more flexibility in which part of the front they can reinforce.

Unlike Fulda Gap, which has an attacking and defending side, Highway 66 will be a head-on clash, with the choice of where to attack left to the player. The Soviet 8th Guards Army’s momentum is almost spent, but it can still throw its remaining reserves into a last assault on seizing its objective. Meanwhile, NATO’s first units in action have taken horrible casualties and are close to breaking point; however, more fresh troops are poised to reach the front. This is the tipping point of the Fulda campaign, but which side will be victorious?

Endman posted:

You know, I’m just not convinced American formations were actually capable of withstanding many times their own number.

Zeppelin Insanity posted:

Of course they were. If they weren't, then NATO would not be able to win a conventional war, and that's not an acceptable conclusion.

Zeppelin Insanity posted:

Of course they were. If they weren't, then NATO would not be able to win a conventional war, and that's not an acceptable conclusion.

gradenko_2000 posted:

The nice thing about Second Front being computerized ASL is that you can very easily try new strategies, which might otherwise take hours to run if you were implementing the rules manually via [virtual] tabletop, despite the fact that Second Front isn't a one-to-one emulation

I thought, "okay, what if we leveraged fire combat to shoot enemies out of defensive positions, and would refuse to advance as long as there were still active defensive fire?", and I tried to come up with some principles to adhere to:

- avoid going into melee yourself

- since Second Front does not implement the "fire group" rule, allowing you to combine firepower across multiple hexes, your combined firepower has to be concentrated in single hexes, which means squads need to be triple-stacked, whenever possible

- leaders are going to be more involved: ideally they'd be stacked with your shooters to improve their odds of getting a favorable result (whereas in a more aggressive, melee-heavy strategy, leaders would hang back and be ready to receive routed units, which is going to happen more often if you're running into defensive fire)

the results of attempt number one:



this is three turns shorter than the full playthrough we did last month, and while the score is lower, that's because we took zero casualties - while some squads did rout, and some squads did "weaken", i.e. get reduced from Elite to Veteran, and even Veteran to Regular, no squads lost men per se. This meant that we triggered the 1.5-to-1 ratio of infantry strength very quickly, and we didn't kill nearly as many Germans as we had to the first time. There was only one melee engagement, and it was triggered by the Germans deliberately going into it (and then me dogpiling the one squad after the close combat was inconclusive on the first turn).

the results of attempt number two:



one turn longer, and we did take at least one casualty reduction (squad to half-squad), but the score was much higher, and we killed more of the German force, including the tank, which I didn't get to do in attempt #1. Notably, according to the game's leaderboards, a score of 78 is within the top 100 of all attempts for this mission, and I'm pretty sure I missed an opportunity to drive it at least two points higher, which could have put us into the top 60.

I may do another step-by-step playthrough of the process, just to show how it's done, but it's definitely promising, even if there's some variability involved.

Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:

Got into the top five. The #1 score is 97. My first attempt used the treeline to push slowly, but it was... slow.



No casualties, with a bit of luck. Overwhelmed the enemy by concentrating exclusively on the north.

Tekopo posted:

EDIT: and yeah Glory is also pretty good

BadOptics posted:

Would the Warsaw Pact even have tried to take Frankfurt (the city itself)? My understanding is that they'd just bypass the main urban areas and reduce them down like '44-'45 to take more militarily important (and time sensitive) objectives like Ramstein AB or port cities in the Low Countries where REFORGER units would be arriving.

Edit: Eugen devs - "What do you mean second echelon forces???"

Bro Dad posted:

this looks interesting

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1189100/Rise_Of_The_White_Sun/

Bro Dad posted:

this looks interesting

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1189100/Rise_Of_The_White_Sun/

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7kUFjmD_pk

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7kUFjmD_pk

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7kUFjmD_pk

Endman posted:

The logistics argument is still very compelling, imo

I'm still not convinced that today's infantryman needs a fully automatic machine carbine that can blast off 900 rounds a minute; seems ludicrously expensive