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habeasdorkus posted:Kerrigan is just rejecting the sunk cost fallacy that says if she's in for a penny of war crimes she's in for a pound of war crimes. Y'know, war crimes might just be the one situation where the sunk cost fallacy isn't a fallacy. Communist Thoughts posted:Man I hate blizzards thing of having women villains just snap hysterically and do bad things for reasons they don't even seem to understand. Warfield brings up her boyfriend and she just can't control her emotions! It's little wonder Blizzard games in particular seem packed to the gills with the worst kinds of players.
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Mar 10, 2024 02:04
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Intermission 10 All that's left of Warfield's fortress is a bunch of burning rubble. >Talk to Izsha.    There is still much to do. We are numberless, we are relentless, and we are evolving. We are also done on Char. I will decide on our next destination soon.>Talk to Zagara.  No you aren't.    And what lesson did I teach you? Vision, my queen. You taught me vision. The Swarm is powerful. But power is not enough for its leader. I defeated Warfield not through numbers, or strength. I simply possessed vision and he did not.No, you totally beat Warfield with numbers and strength. I will remember it, my queen.And now that Zagara's had her introductory arc, time to go over her lines for Kaldir and Zerus: Kaldir arrival posted:
Post-Harvest of Screams posted:
You think Kerrigan's going to do, like, any reflection on how that's the exact mindset that had Mengsk leave her for dead in the first place? Post-Shoot the Messenger posted:
Oh, and as a fun thing:   Doing Char before Kaldir totally lets you use Banelings in Enemy Within.  So you can just stroll into fights with 60 free Banelings. Post-Enemy Within posted:
Zerus arrival posted:
Post-Waking the Ancient posted:
 The biggest change comes in The Crucible.  Where instead of Izsha, Zagara is left in command.  Which I actually kinda like as a showcase of Zagara's character.  There is literally nothing stopping Zagara from going 'my swarm now' and loving off, leaving Kerrigan for dead.  But she knows she hasn't learned everything Kerrigan can teach her and she'd be an inferior leader, so she faithfully serves.  Izsha still chimes in with status updates, but most of her lines are now taken by Zagara. A lot of their shared lines cover the exact same stuff so I won't go over all of it. Post-The Crucible posted:
Post-Supreme posted:
>Talk to Dehaka.  Will you collect the essence of this Zagara? Will I?Essence count: 64  >Talk to Abathur.  Essence count: 65  What did you do after the Overmind died? Wandered the tunnels of Char, without purpose. Feral. Queen of Blades found me. Made me zerg again. You aren't zerg unless you are someone's control? Without overriding will, am beast. Less. See, this is something that should have come up during Zerus! Abathur, handcrafted by the Overmind to shape the evolution of the Swarm, reduced to a mindless animal the moment he has no hand holding his leash. Video: Baneling Evolution  The annoying thing about Evolution Missions is that the ones for the Zerus units show up after the initial trio of planets, so you have to go a long while before you can get an upgraded Mutalisk or Swarm Host.   Essence count: 66  Essence count: 67     It's literally Kraith's model.  Or Kraith is a really big Mitoscarab, if you do Char first.      hosed up how we never get Nydus Worms to play with in the campaign.  Essence count: 68  I got Banelings.  There's not really much in the way of strategy.   Essence count: 69 Nice.   One split.  Two splits.  Done.        The Splitter Baneling leaves two tiny Spawn when they die.    They aren't particularly strong, but free damage is free damage.  And I need more Banelings for each fight, naturally.                  Successful specimens scatters on surface. Must gather.  The Hunter is Yet Another Cliff Jumper.  There's a bunch of burrowed Banelings here, and approaching them would automatically recruit them.  Eeeeeeeeexcept the trigger for that is just small enough to squeeze by, letting me skip them.  This is actually nice, since grabbing the first pack sets off a mission gimmick of constant lava surges which forces me to sit on the high ground while I wait for it to pass.  So now I can just zoom on through, and the second pack sets the mission progress to 2/3.   There's a small Dominion squad between the second and third group, but I still have enough to win. Hunters will leap at nearby targets, just like the Raptor.         The cutscene manages to turn on the lava timer.  But I'm so close to the base I can get over long before it pops.  Then I right click the PF and win.     The Baneling is pretty much the same quality vs quantity choice of the Zergling.  Get more explosions, or get a gap-closer so fewer explosions die before hitting the enemy?  On lower difficulties you can grab anything, but there's a small quirk in how a Hunter's attack works that completely kneecaps it on harder difficulties. See, we've already seen how the enemy will micro units away from Banelings. The problem is that a Hunter will try leap at an enemy, land, then explode. Specifically at an enemy. So the Hunter leaps, the target will move out of the way, the Hunter lands where the target was and now has no enemy in range to explode on, then it chases and leaps after them again and again. Repeat until the rest of your army comes over and kills the target for you.  Kerrigan's levels.  Now to see where the plot takes us next.   If Char wasn't done last, than the Dominion launches the doohickeys at Char while Kerrigan is away and Kilysa has it delivered to us.    *gasp* An actual conversation with the main antagonist!   *gasp* And Sarah's TWUE WUV was alive all long!?     Eeeeeeeh I'm sure it's fine. The guy didn't even spare a thought to Fenix in Wings. We can always just say Zeratul told us to do it for the prophecy.  Also that wasn't even a conversation. Kerrigan just glared at him the entire time.      And now, after a month and a half, is the third vote for Heart! It's also the last one! Korhal is immediately after these two mission chains! Heart of the Swarm is the shortest game in the trilogy! At least it means we don't have to put up with Kerrigan's bullshit for that much longer!    If the Dominion is controlling hybrid, our invasion of Korhal will fail. This lab must be destroyed.We can either go meet this mysterious man and carry on with Kerrigan's revenge.  You wish their help in finding the terran, Jim Raynor?Or made a side trip in the name of TWUE WUV. 
BisbyWorl fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Mar 12, 2024 |
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Mar 10, 2024 04:11
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The zerg first evolved here, yes.
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Banelings are better if you want Banelings
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Mar 10, 2024 04:32
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But what if you want ultralisks? So that's what I voted for.
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Mar 10, 2024 04:33
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Personally, I'm voting to go meet Mr. Mysterious Stranger, first. For a multitude of reasons. There IS an argument for going after Jim first... but frankly, that's boring gameplay power reasons.
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Mar 10, 2024 04:35
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BisbyWorl posted:
How does Izsha - or even Kerrigan for that matter - know what the hybrid are or why they are so dangerous? This is the first time we've heard hybrid even mentioned in Heart, right?
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Mar 10, 2024 05:17
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Splitter banelings with heal on explosion are a good time if you're massing raptorlings. The babies only heal a little bit, but when you've got 35 max health, every little bit helps.
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Mar 10, 2024 05:18
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gohuskies posted:How does Izsha - or even Kerrigan for that matter - know what the hybrid are or why they are so dangerous? This is the first time we've heard hybrid even mentioned in Heart, right? Doesn't Iszha have like 2% of QoB Kerrigan's memories still? Like explicitly "nothing useful but has some stuff" level to answer questions like these so the audience doesn't have to be reintroduced to concepts.
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Mar 10, 2024 06:15
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Jim Raynor posted:
Anyway, I think we should fire up the ol' N64 and get a comp stomp going on Opposing City-States '98, what do you all say.
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Mar 10, 2024 06:20
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Lets go to the station to pick up your last few toys. I notice that love does not give you Ultras, so love is the dumber choice.
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Mar 10, 2024 06:59
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Go to Skygeirr. Ultralisks are way cooler than our loser boyfriend
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Mar 10, 2024 07:10
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Note that we just attack the protoss in the evolution mission for banelings for literally no reason. No, seriously, they're just kind of there and Kerrigan decides to massacre them? At least the dominion mining camp has a military garrison.
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Mar 10, 2024 07:22
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I found splitters to work very well with the way I used banelings, which was exclusively having Kerrigan drop them directly on top of enemies at the cost of only some space mana. I never bothered morphing them from zerglings or even building their nest.NewMars posted:Note that we just attack the protoss in the evolution mission for banelings for literally no reason. No, seriously, they're just kind of there and Kerrigan decides to massacre them? At least the dominion mining camp has a military garrison. Playing through evolution missions led me to the conclusion that she's just violently racist against Protoss. Especially now that she doesn't have Amon influence or whatever and some of them can happen while she's still human, like that one.
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Mar 10, 2024 08:29
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BisbyWorl posted:
lol lmao even
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Mar 10, 2024 08:56
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NewMars posted:Note that we just attack the protoss in the evolution mission for banelings for literally no reason. No, seriously, they're just kind of there and Kerrigan decides to massacre them? At least the dominion mining camp has a military garrison. Current justifications for evolution missions: Raptor - Dominion set up a camp on the high ground. Swarmling- Dominion is attacking a feral hatchery. Corpser - Protoss had a specimen we needed. Vile - lol gently caress the protoss Impaler - Dominion is attacking us. Lurker - Feral zerg are too feral for Kerrigan to take over, please ignore all the other feral broods she's taken over. Splitter - lol gently caress the protoss Hunter - Dominion has set up a mining outpost. Believe it or not, this is actually the last evolution mission that fights the protoss. Every one after this is against the Dominion.
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Mar 10, 2024 09:36
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Maybe the Khala just gives her a migraine? Kinda like how the Tyranids show up in 40k because the Emperor was faxing their phone line with the Astronomican.
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Mar 10, 2024 09:41
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I really and utterly despise the pretentious leader garbage Kerrigan vomits at Zegara. It's so freaking stupid.
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Mar 10, 2024 09:42
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Do you not believe in her vision of winning through infinite zerglings and banelings? Sounds like you need to visit Abathur.
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Mar 10, 2024 09:46
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NewMars posted:Note that we just attack the protoss in the evolution mission for banelings for literally no reason. No, seriously, they're just kind of there and Kerrigan decides to massacre them? At least the dominion mining camp has a military garrison. I feel like this is another instance of the writers haven't come to agreement about whether Kerrigan is supposed to be a villain or not. That said Wings has the protoss faction which was presented as evil because of their fanatical opposition to Raynor's plan to kill them and steal their stuff, so maybe the writers just don't like protoss.
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Mar 10, 2024 09:50
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Wings also featured nominally friendly protoss who said "hey buddy wanna slaughter each other just for funsies? just really spill some blood like a bunch of pals (:" I think the moral of the story is that nobody in Starcraft 2 is smart
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Mar 10, 2024 10:11
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The Protoss as a faction have zero involvement in the plots of either Wings or Heart; when they do appear they’re just throwaway enemies with no goal other than “fight the player.” They start LotV having done nothing of consequence and experienced no change in status since the end of Brood War. e: Outside of Zeratul’s Ominous Prophecy Bullshit and that one mission with Selendis, is there a single line from a named Protoss in either campaign? megane fucked around with this message at 10:19 on Mar 10, 2024 |
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Mar 10, 2024 10:11
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I forgot, are the Evil'darim a recent (post SC1 or Brood War) split or did they get retconned as existing just off screen in 1?
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Mar 10, 2024 10:14
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Omobono posted:I forgot, are the Evil'darim a recent (post SC1 or Brood War) split or did they get retconned as existing just off screen in 1? Not only were they retconned in as "the secret evil red protoss", but they were done so twice, first in novels where they were a secret evil cult inside the Protoss, then again in SC2 where, sharing nothing but the name, they now split off millions of years ago (??) and have just been chilling with their equal technology, which they get by kidnapping and torturing protoss scientists (???), off-screen, without a single previous protoss knowing they existed. Yup.
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Mar 10, 2024 10:30
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 Why did I ask? It's modern  , of course the answer is the even dumber third option on a two options choice.
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Mar 10, 2024 10:36
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megane posted:e: Outside of Zeratul’s Ominous Prophecy Bullshit and that one mission with Selendis, is there a single line from a named Protoss in either campaign? Lasarra! You know, Lasarra! The lady we captured on Kaldir, had two conversations with, then got used as a Niadra delivery system and died screaming.
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Mar 10, 2024 11:01
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I think it's beautiful how they managed to absolutely murder a memorable character, Kerrigan, so hard in a single game/campaign.
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Mar 10, 2024 11:17
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And it's still not even close to the total clusterfuck that is Sylvanas a.k.a. Fantasy Kerrigan At this point I'm honestly surprised that there is no Corrupted Morally Grey Lady in Diablo franchise.
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Mar 10, 2024 12:45
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Szarrukin posted:At this point I'm honestly surprised that there is no Corrupted Morally Grey Lady in Diablo franchise. Lilith
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Mar 10, 2024 13:52
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Pieces of Peace posted:Not only were they retconned in as "the secret evil red protoss", but they were done so twice, first in novels where they were a secret evil cult inside the Protoss, then again in SC2 where, sharing nothing but the name, they now split off millions of years ago (??) and have just been chilling with their equal technology, which they get by kidnapping and torturing protoss scientists (???), off-screen, without a single previous protoss knowing they existed. The writers put just such an impressive level of care and attention to detail into every aspect of this plot. Unfortunately management clearly forced them to use the unedited first draft instead
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Mar 10, 2024 14:50
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Pieces of Peace posted:Not only were they retconned in as "the secret evil red protoss", but they were done so twice, first in novels where they were a secret evil cult inside the Protoss, then again in SC2 where, sharing nothing but the name, they now split off millions of years ago (??) and have just been chilling with their equal technology, which they get by kidnapping and torturing protoss scientists (???), off-screen, without a single previous protoss knowing they existed. You'd think they'd have put slightly more effort into their dark eldar equivalent but then again
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Mar 10, 2024 17:55
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I think LotV actually handles the Tal'darim quite well but yeah, until then to call them paper-thin is an understatement.
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Mar 10, 2024 18:10
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Szarrukin posted:And it's still not even close to the total clusterfuck that is Sylvanas a.k.a. Fantasy Kerrigan Eh I think it's basically the same thing. People are just madder at Sylvanas because they think theyr night elves irl and people haven't been practically living in the starcraft universe for 20 years They both get corrupted into villains/antiheroes who do genocides then get retconned into having not been actually themselves while they did all of that. Tho arguably Sylvanas scrapes ahead because they decided that actually she's just been half a character for the entire time we've known her and now that Sylvanas is dead and we have another boring windrunner elf in her place But for me personally nothing they do to Sylvanas is as excruciating as the opening hots scene where Kerrigan forlornly puts her hand on the door as Jim leaves and does puppy eyes then proceeds to spend the whole game upset about jim until she turns into an angel and Mary Poppins away into the sky
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Mar 10, 2024 21:00
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Communist Thoughts posted:Eh I think it's basically the same thing. People are just madder at Sylvanas because they think theyr night elves irl and people haven't been practically living in the starcraft universe for 20 years Nah, Sylvanas had not been corrupted. She was convinced/duped or whatever, but she wasn't made to do evil by some corrupting force. Also, she has never been retconned into not having been actually herself when she did her evil deeds, wuite the opposite. The game very explicitly spells out that all her crimes are her fault. I'm not sure how one can misunderstand this fact. In contrast to that is Kerrigan, who was mind controlled and under the corrupting influence of the Overmind, and indirectly under Amon's influence. I'd argue that Kerrigan is the far more egregious case, base on her ending in LotV, as you pointed out. Blizz did lay a very shallow foundation for her ending, but it's far too little to be taken seriously.
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Mar 10, 2024 21:23
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Torrannor posted:Nah, Sylvanas had not been corrupted. She was convinced/duped or whatever, but she wasn't made to do evil by some corrupting force. Also, she has never been retconned into not having been actually herself when she did her evil deeds, wuite the opposite. The game very explicitly spells out that all her crimes are her fault. I'm not sure how one can misunderstand this fact. I never played WOW but Sylvanas was turned into an undead banshee by Arthas in Warcraft 3 to be one of his evil servants, that seems pretty corrupting to me.
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Mar 10, 2024 22:42
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gohuskies posted:I never played WOW but Sylvanas was turned into an undead banshee by Arthas in Warcraft 3 to be one of his evil servants, that seems pretty corrupting to me. She then gets her free will back in the WC3 expansion and decides she's cool with doing plenty of awful stuff once she's got her own mind back.
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Mar 10, 2024 22:49
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I vaguely remember some stuff about Frostmourne stealing part of her soul that she recovered in Shadowlands, which would qualify her as "corrupted".
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Mar 10, 2024 22:50
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disposablewords posted:She then gets her free will back in the WC3 expansion and decides she's cool with doing plenty of awful stuff once she's got her own mind back. Sure, and Kerrigan got her free will back at the end of Wings and has not exactly been Mother Teresa since. I'll admit I don't know too much on what I'm talking about with WOW though and cede the discussion.
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Mar 10, 2024 22:52
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gohuskies posted:I never played WOW but Sylvanas was turned into an undead banshee by Arthas in Warcraft 3 to be one of his evil servants, that seems pretty corrupting to me. Oh, she did evil things while under the control of the Lich King, but that's not really a controversial part of her. She regained her free will, and eventually her undead body, after Illidan began his assault on Icecrown. The genocide she did, she did like more than a decade later. Free-willed undead in WoW are not all chaotic evil or whatever, those with freed from the Lich King's control are perfectly capable of choosing to be good or evil. Which includes Sylvanas. So she went through a deeply traumatic event, with some significant amount of torture and mind control thrown in, so her life as a free undead wasn't easy. But those were... mundane forces for a lack of better word? Fel juice in Warcraft corrupts, but what Sylvanas went through might easily break a person, but it wasn't some kind of magical corrupting force that forced her to do evil. And the game very explicitly does not absolve her of the guilt for her actions in her for now last chapter. She turns a new leaf, and acknowledges her own guilt. And is not forgiven by the other characters around her, nor welcomed back into the fold. Instead being sent into turbo-hell to right her wrongs, possibly for eternity? Or a very long time? In any case, she probably won't be seen in WoW for quite some time, doing penance and maybe coming back in a few expansions. The difference to Kerrigan could hardly be more stark. As we will see in this LP, even more so in LotV, of course.
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Mar 10, 2024 22:58
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gohuskies posted:Sure, and Kerrigan got her free will back at the end of Wings and has not exactly been Mother Teresa since. There are several issues here. One is that making Kerrigan not responsible for what she did as the Queen of Blades is horrible character assassination, while it was never a question that Sylvanas is innocent for all the things she did while under the Lich King's control. And then you might compare their actions when free willed, where Sylvanas is hated in-universe for, has an explicit arc acknowledging her responsibility, and must do penance. Meanwhile, Kerrigan can perpetrate multiple genocides in HotS, doesn't get called out for that in any way or form, and in LotV she turns into an angel.
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Mar 10, 2024 23:04
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Szarrukin posted:I vaguely remember some stuff about Frostmourne stealing part of her soul that she recovered in Shadowlands, which would qualify her as "corrupted".
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Mar 10, 2024 23:05
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