Israel/Palestine

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel/Palestine

(Thread IKs: Main Paineframe, Irony Be My Shield, punishedkissinger)

Szarrukin: Sep 29, 2021

Quantum Cat posted:

Is anyone else getting tired of being forced to assume good faith from this cavalcade of hasbara shitheads kramering into the thread to retread the same old discussed to death and thoroughly discredited genocidal talking points and then vanish in a puff of smoke when anyone tries to get them to defend their mindless lust for Palestinian death only for the next one in the queue to rinse and repeat and so on? Because holy poo poo is it exhausting to read.

At what point are mods going to start dropping sixers for this poo poo?

What, you don't like 2137 iterations of "well, starving civilians and kids shot by snipers are bad, but can we talk about condemning Hamas instead?" discussions? Repetitiveness is their shield.

# ? Mar 11, 2024 01:45

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 25, 2024 09:09

FunkyAl: Mar 28, 2010; Your vitals soar.

Skex posted:

They are not a Leftist organization. They are a right-wing authoritarian religious movement and there is no reason to believe that they would honor a ceasefire. The Oct 7th attack was intended to evoke exactly this kind of overeation from the Israel. So the most likely scenario if Israel were to engage in a unilateral ceasefire would be for Hamas to initiate another provocation which would really set the genocide into high gear.

What kind of whacko religion considers the holy land sacred

# ? Mar 11, 2024 06:01

Sephyr: Aug 28, 2012

https://www.politico.eu/article/israels-netanyahu-says-he-will-defy-bidens-red-line-and-invade-rafah/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=social

I mean, even calling it a red line is stretching it a lot at this point. But it'll still be grimly amusing to see Bibi just deliberately making GBS threads on his main, long-term benefactor while still being showered with bennies.

He might as well wear a MAGA hat when he announces the operation itself.

# ? Mar 11, 2024 11:43

Fidelitious: Apr 17, 2018; MY BIRTH CRY WILL BE THE SOUND OF EVERY WALLET ON THIS PLANET OPENING IN UNISON.

Well you can see his own contradictory phrasing.

quote:

�It is a red line, but I am never going to leave Israel. The defence of Israel is still critical, so there�s no red line [where] I�m going to cut off all weapons so they don�t have the Iron Dome to protect them,� Biden said

quote:

�But there�s red lines that if he crosses them��, Biden said without finishing his chain of thought, adding that his administration �cannot have 30,000 more Palestinians dead�.

He didn't finish his sentence because I don't think he has anything to finish it with. Netanyahu can rightly ignore any of this blustering because Biden isn't willing to back it up with even a verbal description of consequences.
Can't have 30,000 more Palestinians murdered but the first 30,000 were a-ok. It's a pathetic display.

# ? Mar 11, 2024 14:25

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

I'm sure that with the 59,999th casualty he'll get serious.

# ? Mar 11, 2024 15:25

Esran: Apr 28, 2008

DeadlyMuffin posted:

My point is that this kind of statement:

*invites* comparison to previous presidents and if they were worse or not. Not if their accomplishments were worse, you're talking about the person.

"Joe Biden has done more damage to the Palestinian people than any previous US president" is a statement looking at the president in their historical context. "Joe Biden is much worse than previous presidents" is not.

If you don't want to talk about it, don't invite the discussion.

But, this isn't the election thread, and I am happy to stop talking about Trump here.

You should have included the latter half of the sentence you quoted, which makes it clear that I'm comparing Biden's actions to the historical actions taken by other presidents.

quote:

Were previous presidents also bad? Yes. Joe Biden is much worse. We know this based on the genocide he's currently presiding over, and also we know that previous presidents, as late as Obama, have tried to yank Israel's leash, even over things much less severe than the current genocide. Biden directly undermined the Obama administration's efforts to control Netanyahu. Biden has not, and will not put limits on Israel.

In none of that am I inviting you to write fanfiction about what you think Trump would do. I am making the argument that Biden's actions so far are uniquely bad, and I am saying that I don't believe he will change his tune.

# ? Mar 11, 2024 16:24

rscott: Dec 10, 2009

Since there's been a lot of talk about how Hamas and how this is all their fault I guess we can check in and see how the West Bank is doing, turns out it's not very good!

The Washington Post posted:

NABLUS, West Bank — The signs of economic distress are everywhere in Nablus, a once-bustling hub of Palestinian commerce now paralyzed by Israel’s tightening grip on life and work in the West Bank.

School-age children sell candy for change and the upscale hotels and restaurants are closed. Jobless men smoke cigarettes on street corners, while taxis sit idle, their routes out of the city blocked by Israeli troops.

“The Palestinian people are used to crises,” said Iyad Kordi, general secretary of the Nablus Chamber of Commerce, but “what I see now, I’ve never witnessed.” This winter, local officials said hundreds of families reached out for the first time to plead for cash, food or basic heating.

“At least before, we had the basic needs of survival,” said Kadi, adding that the pressure Israel is putting on the West Bank is pushing it to the brink.

While Israel besieges and pummels Gaza, Palestinians here say it is also waging an economic war in the West Bank. Since the Hamas attacks on Oct. 7, Israel has imposed sweeping restrictions on the Palestinian economy, revoking work permits, hindering free movement and even withholding for months the tax revenue it collects for the Palestinian Authority.

The measures, which Israel says were taken for security reasons, have led to massive job losses, unpaid salaries and a steep drop in local production, according to the World Bank. They have also stoked fears of widespread unrest and worries that more young men, especially in the impoverished refugee camps, will join militant groups to take up arms against Israel.

“They are killing us economically,” said Jamal Tirawi, a local Fatah party leader in the Balata refugee camp in Nablus. Officials there say thousands of the camp’s roughly 33,000 residents were employed in Israel before the attack, mostly as construction workers.

Now, some 70 percent of workers there aren’t receiving a salary, compared with 35 percent who were unemployed five months ago, said Ahmed Thoukan, co-president of the camp’s popular services committee. Across the West Bank, unemployment reached 29 percent by the end of 2023, causing a sharp decline in the gross domestic product, according to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics.

Lost income

Israel has long exercised significant control over the lives and movement of Palestinians here. It captured the West Bank from Jordan in 1967, ruling for decades through military occupation and constructing sprawling settlements for Israeli citizens.

In the 1990s, after the first Palestinian uprising, the Oslo accords granted the Palestinian Authority limited autonomy over civil affairs, including the economy, as a step toward peace. But that peace never materialized and Palestinians still rely heavily on Israel for jobs, market access, tax collection, and imports of raw materials and essential goods.

Over the years, Palestinian workers formed the backbone of Israel’s construction industry and became a reliable source of cheap labor for its booming agriculture and tourism sectors. Workers from Gaza and the West Bank could earn in Israel triple the amount they could make in the Palestinian territories, according to the World Bank.

But after Oct. 7, when Hamas and other militants killed around 1,200 people, authorities imposed a near-total ban on Palestinians working in Israel or its settlements in the West Bank. The government canceled the work permits of more than 170,000 Palestinian laborers, the World Bank said. Tens of thousands more who worked in Israel illegally are now also out of jobs, according to Shaher Sa’ed, general secretary of the Palestinian General Federation of Trade Unions.

“The issue of work permits for Palestinians is based on ongoing and comprehensive security considerations,” Ophir Falk, foreign policy adviser to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, said in a statement. “Israel is vigilant on this issue in order to prevent additional Palestinian terror.”

For Abdullah Khezaran, 29, the money he earned as a maintenance worker in Tel Aviv allowed him to get married and start a family. Now he’s unemployed and spends his days sleeping or playing cards, plagued by fears he won’t be able to support his wife and children.

At a Nablus roundabout, 53-year-old Taysir Dabeek sells parsley and lettuce. He used to make between $85 and $110 each day painting houses in Tel Aviv. Now he earns just $15 a day to buy essentials for his family of six.

“God help us,” said Khezaran, who was standing on a nearby street corner.

Checkpoints and roadblocks

But even getting fresh produce or other goods, including from West Bank cities, is costly and cumbersome. The West Bank, which is slightly smaller than the state of Delaware, was already carved up by checkpoints and roadblocks, including a 450-mile-long barrier that snakes through Palestinian land.

Over the past five months, Israel has erected dozens of new military checkpoints and blocked towns and villages from accessing main roads, according to Israeli rights group B’Tselem. The worsening restrictions have stifled local trade and production, key pillars of the West Bank economy, and prevented another 67,000 Palestinians from physically returning to their workplaces, the World Bank said.

In Nablus, nestled in a valley in the upper part of the West Bank, Israeli forces have long maintained checkpoints at the city’s four exits. The military closed two of them in the fall, meaning no traffic could go in or out.

They also installed dozens of metal gates and dirt mounds to block roads around Nablus, Kadi said, cutting off routes to nearby villages. A spokeswoman for the Coordination of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT), the Israeli government body charged with overseeing civilian policy in the West Bank, did not respond to requests for comment.

Drivers now get stuck for hours trying to leave the city. Students enrolled in university in Nablus, but who lived outside the city, are dropping out. Palestinian citizens of Israel used to travel to Nablus to shop or visit relatives. But now they’re staying home, keeping cash out of the local economy.

Nablus’s once-thriving furniture industry has all but collapsed because of the sheer difficulty of moving goods in and out of the West Bank. The Titi family faces the same problem with the sesame seeds it imports to make the popular condiment, tahina, which it sells from its chain of stores. Skyrocketing costs might force the family to close at least one of the shops, the family said.

If time passes and there is no relief, “the potential for an explosion gets bigger,” said Michael Milshtein, a former adviser to COGAT on Palestinian affairs.

Under pressure

The widespread loss of income is leading to desperation and rising social tensions, especially in the West Bank’s crowded refugee camps, where local leaders and residents say domestic disputes are becoming more frequent, and some parents are pulling their kids from school to put them to work.

On a recent day, a woman wandered through Balata’s narrow alleyways, collecting aluminum cans to resell as scrap metal to support her four children. Volunteers at the local food kitchen said they’re preparing to serve double the number of families this year for the holy month of Ramadan, which begins Monday.

Young men in the camp “are under big pressure and unemployment is very high there,” the deputy mayor of Nablus, Hussam Shakhshir, said. But they don’t normally turn to criminality, he said, and instead “revolt against the occupation.”

Thoukan, the Balata camp official, said he’s already observed young men taking up arms after losing their jobs.

Abu Hussam, 28, used to earn about $100 a day working construction in Tel Aviv. But Israel canceled his work permit last year, after finding out about his brother’s militant activities.

Abu Hussam, who requested to be identified by his nickname for fear of retribution by authorities, said he couldn’t find work locally and ended up joining a local battalion of fighters.

Balata is a place that prizes armed resistance: Children wear miniature portraits of fallen militants around their necks, and ride bicycles, unfazed, as men with automatic rifles roar past on motorbikes. The walls of Abu Hussam’s living room are lined with posters of his dead comrades, killed in clashes with Israeli forces.

“Resistance is our right,” he said. But Abu Hussam also received regular cash handouts from a popular commander named Zoufi, who was killed by Israel in November.

“What do you expect them to do?” Amal Tirawi, director of the Balata’s women’s center, said of the workers who lost their jobs in Israel. “There are university graduates among the militants.”

But, she said, “No mother wants to see their sons killed or injured.”

CORRECTION

An earlier version of this article misspelled the name of Iyad Kordi and used an incorrect title for him. He is the general secretary of the Nablus Chamber of Commerce, not the head of the group. The article has been corrected.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/11/israel-gaza-west-bank-economy/

# ? Mar 11, 2024 18:15

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

Tesseraction posted:

I'm sure that with the 59,999th casualty he'll get serious.

the trick is that israel's been targetting hospitals etc so probably the healthcare authorities are having a harder time counting. they also have a pretty conservative method from my recollection. thus, if israel can take out the entire administrative apparatus within the next 30,000 counted deaths, they can do whatever they want!

# ? Mar 11, 2024 19:25

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

One weird trick to covering up your war crimes! Den Haag Hates it!

# ? Mar 11, 2024 19:51

OctaMurk: Jun 21, 2013

Blowing up the hospitals and health ministry was strategically the best move theyve made in the genocide. The 30k number has been frozen in the Discourse and they are free to kill as many as possible without number going up.

# ? Mar 11, 2024 20:05

Shuka: Dec 19, 2000

National Parks posted:

Because "Biden is uniquely bad in regards to Israel" is a historical discussion, while "Trump would be worse, at this moment in time" is hypothetical guesswork.

If you have any interesting insight from the first Trump presidency in regards to Israel, feel free to contrast that, but "Trump would be worse" is a discussion killer designed to run interference on the Biden administration's accountability with regards to the Genocide.

Trump and Kushner have a very public record of courting hard line middle east governments. Kushner and US mercenaries were directly involved MBS's coup. I'm having trouble imagining any GOP candidate entertaining any pro Palestinian positions.

# ? Mar 11, 2024 20:25

Sephyr: Aug 28, 2012

Shuka posted:

Trump and Kushner have a very public record of courting hard line middle east governments. Kushner and US mercenaries were directly involved MBS's coup. I'm having trouble imagining any GOP candidate entertaining any pro Palestinian positions.

I don't think anyone is saying that Trump and his ilk are posting watermelon emojis and all in for Palestinian statehood. At best, they are fickle and distracted with other grifts and might not fully play with the establishment formula of total support. Or just ignore the region, which is often enough of a boon.

As comparison, some of the best times in South American history were during the War on Terror, because Bush and his crew were so busy with dreams of building their new imperial order in the Middle east warzone that they mostly ignored the region, instead of doing the usual rounds of backing coups and debt-bondage (There was the fun Carmona coup attempt in Venezuela eraly on, but that was before the war really got going). Labor-aligned government were elected and even allowed to come to power and govern!

Then the GWOT wound down, Saint Obama came to town to restore civility and decency, with the establishment adults back in charge, was hugging Lula and saying he was 'the man' while the machinery of his government engineered a wave of judicial coups that set the region back at least a decade and gave birth to a thousand privatizations.

I'm not saying the millions of death and displacements of the GWOT were 'good' because they diverted imperial focus, but usually, the only decent thing an empire can do for a region is be elsewhere.

# ? Mar 11, 2024 21:34

hadji murad: Apr 18, 2006

V. Illych L. posted:

the trick is that israel's been targetting hospitals etc so probably the healthcare authorities are having a harder time counting. they also have a pretty conservative method from my recollection. thus, if israel can take out the entire administrative apparatus within the next 30,000 counted deaths, they can do whatever they want!

Not even sure that is necessary. The media reported Yemeni fatalities at 10,000 for several years. So, if the US is backing a genocide the media stays in line.

# ? Mar 11, 2024 22:53

National Parks: Apr 6, 2016

Shuka posted:

Trump and Kushner have a very public record of courting hard line middle east governments. Kushner and US mercenaries were directly involved MBS's coup. I'm having trouble imagining any GOP candidate entertaining any pro Palestinian positions.

That isn't what this discussion is about at all.

But yeah, the Trump crime family is uniquely bad with regards to Saudi Arabia, you got us

That doesn't change that Biden is a hard-core Zionist who is uniquely bad with regards to Israel versus every other president so far. Guy has been rooting for the IDF to murder Palestinians for 50 years, and actively sabatoged the Obama administration's efforts to hold Netanyahu accountable for settlements.

It's too bad that Obama and Trump didn't get to preside over their own 30000+ Palestinian genocide so we could establish a baseline.

I guess we can find out when Trump takes over the Gaza genocide in 2025 at this rate

# ? Mar 11, 2024 23:25

Private Speech: Mar 30, 2011; I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.

I kindof feel like "being bad with regards to saudis" might not be as helpful to the Israelis as "being an avowed lifelong zionist".

# ? Mar 11, 2024 23:40

Your Brain on Hugs: Aug 20, 2006

At the very least there will be more opposition to the genocide from liberals and other world leaders if trump is in charge. With Biden they're stuck defending or trying to minimize. It won't amount to anything, but at least we'll stop seeing sociopathic deflections about how they're so very concerned over the dire humanitarian situation in Gaza.

# ? Mar 11, 2024 23:42

...!: Oct 5, 2003; I SHOULD KEEP MY DUMB MOUTH SHUT INSTEAD OF SPEWING HORSESHIT ABOUT THE ORBITAL MECHANICS OF THE JAMES WEBB SPACE TELESCOPE.

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT A LAGRANGE POINT IS?

rscott posted:

Since there's been a lot of talk about how Hamas and how this is all their fault I guess we can check in and see how the West Bank is doing, turns out it's not very good!

I believe it was ABC News who accidentally gave away the game a few weeks ago by referring to the "Hamas-run" West Bank while reporting on the settler violence. It's all about blaming Hamas for literally everything, including when Hamas demonstrably has nothing to do with it.

# ? Mar 12, 2024 00:01

Nebrilos: Oct 9, 2012

Why can't Biden stand up to Israel? Why can't he even take a stance as limited as "we gave you bombs for self-defense and you used them to murder thousands of children; from now on, you want to murder children, get your own drat bombs, we won't give you any more."?

# ? Mar 12, 2024 03:23

Your Brain on Hugs: Aug 20, 2006

Because he believes wholeheartedly in the Zionist project and does not consider the lives of Palestinians to be worth anything much at all.

# ? Mar 12, 2024 03:39

The Bananana: May 21, 2008; This is a metaphor, a Christian allegory. The fact that I have to explain to you that Jesus is the Warthog, and the Banana is drepanocytosis is just embarrassing for you.

Your Brain on Hugs posted:

Because he believes wholeheartedly in the Zionist project and does not consider the lives of Palestinians to be worth anything much at all.

It might be this.

But it also might be that espousing any sentiment in support of Palestine comes at the risk of being labeled an anti-semite, with all the accoutrement that comes with it.

To wit: I 100% think me making any statement denouncing Israel's actions, and supporting Palestinian sovereignty, at work, would lead to my company finding soon thereafter, reason to end my employment conveniently unrelated to my statement. And even if I'm mistaken in thinking they'd do that, It should speak volumes that i dont feel it's a 0% chance.

# ? Mar 12, 2024 04:29

Charliegrs: Aug 10, 2009

Nebrilos posted:

Why can't Biden stand up to Israel? Why can't he even take a stance as limited as "we gave you bombs for self-defense and you used them to murder thousands of children; from now on, you want to murder children, get your own drat bombs, we won't give you any more."?

Because the majority of Americans support Israel.

# ? Mar 12, 2024 05:26

Kagrenak: Sep 8, 2010

Charliegrs posted:

Because the majority of Americans support Israel.

The majority of Americans almost certainly support Israel's continued existence in its current form, either with Palestine remaining occupied or side by side with an ostensibly free Palestinian state, true. There's very little appetite for a solution which involves the dissolution of Israel the ethnostate and its replacement with a secular Isratin.

However the majority of Americans do not clearly support continuing arms shipments to Israel:

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/05/israel-gaza-poll-voters-biden-00144976

At this point it's basically within polling margins for overall support and the clear majority of Dems don't support it.

Biden doesn't get to hide behind polling if the probably quite popular option of "No more offensive weapons, the only thing you can get from us is ammo for the iron dome." This would both be effective in curtailing the slaughter and give him political cover to point to if challenged.

Kagrenak fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Mar 12, 2024

# ? Mar 12, 2024 05:43

...!: Oct 5, 2003; I SHOULD KEEP MY DUMB MOUTH SHUT INSTEAD OF SPEWING HORSESHIT ABOUT THE ORBITAL MECHANICS OF THE JAMES WEBB SPACE TELESCOPE.

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT A LAGRANGE POINT IS?

Nebrilos posted:

Why can't Biden stand up to Israel? Why can't he even take a stance as limited as "we gave you bombs for self-defense and you used them to murder thousands of children; from now on, you want to murder children, get your own drat bombs, we won't give you any more."?

He doesn't want to. He is a hardcore Zionist, moreso than anyone else in Washington. He fully agrees with what Israel is doing. Any noises he makes to the contrary are just that: noises. He's just trying to appease the people who are angry by using strong words.

# ? Mar 12, 2024 05:49

hadji murad: Apr 18, 2006

Charliegrs posted:

Because the majority of Americans support Israel.

What about genocide?

# ? Mar 12, 2024 06:10

Argas: Jan 13, 2008; SRW Fanatic

hadji murad posted:

What about genocide?

You don't have to look very hard to see that old stock America loves genocide too.

# ? Mar 12, 2024 09:56

Fidelitious: Apr 17, 2018; MY BIRTH CRY WILL BE THE SOUND OF EVERY WALLET ON THIS PLANET OPENING IN UNISON.

rscott posted:

Since there's been a lot of talk about how Hamas and how this is all their fault I guess we can check in and see how the West Bank is doing, turns out it's not very good!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/11/israel-gaza-west-bank-economy/

And this is a good example of what is being referred to when we talk about how Israel created Hamas and other militant opposition.
Like, what do you expect people to do when you remove all possibility of making a living in the 'proper' way? Hamas and others are among the few recipients of dollars actually flowing into Palestine and are the ones trying to fight back against Israel so it's pretty logical that the more you oppress civilians and limit their options, the more they're going to give up and join these groups.

This is what you do when you want to be able to accuse everyone of being Hamas and make the claim that there are no civilian casualties because they're all terrorists.

# ? Mar 12, 2024 14:24

The Sean: Apr 17, 2005; Am I handsome now?

Charliegrs posted:

Because the majority of Americans support Israel.

"Support Israel" is not a binary position with no gradient. "I support Israel" doesn't necessarily mean "I support Israel committing genocide." Your post is extremely low content.

# ? Mar 12, 2024 16:39

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

hadji murad posted:

Not even sure that is necessary. The media reported Yemeni fatalities at 10,000 for several years. So, if the US is backing a genocide the media stays in line.

i don't think this is quite how this stuff works - if the gaza health authorities can keep counting using their well-established and very publicly tested method, their numbers will have to be reported. if they have to start changing their method to something less conservative, then general media has an excuse. thus, in order to keep the number down, israel can 1) stop killing people or 2) prevent the health authorities from using their method as-is.

# ? Mar 12, 2024 22:34

cat botherer: Jan 6, 2022; I am interested in most phases of data processing.

The Sean posted:

"Support Israel" is not a binary position with no gradient. "I support Israel" doesn't necessarily mean "I support Israel committing genocide."

Very true, and of course those same people could be convinced of the wisdom of reigning Israel in by at least threatening to withdraw aid, much as Reagan did. On the other hand, anecdotally, I have met a not-insignificant minority that is *extremely* down with Israel committing genocide. They're a clear minority compared to the non-bloodthirsty unexamined milquetoast Israel supporters, but still.

# ? Mar 12, 2024 23:15

Bel Shazar: Sep 14, 2012

The Sean posted:

"Support Israel" is not a binary position with no gradient. "I support Israel" doesn't necessarily mean "I support Israel committing genocide." Your post is extremely low content.

But supporting Israel means supporting a country that has been, is currently, and will be committing genocide.

Committing genocide and completing the ethnic cleansing of Palestine is that country's purpose.

How does supporting Israel not tacitly include support of their ongoing genocide?

e: Is it just "I support the idea of an Israel that doesn't commit genocide"?

# ? Mar 12, 2024 23:18

Charliegrs: Aug 10, 2009

The Sean posted:

"Support Israel" is not a binary position with no gradient. "I support Israel" doesn't necessarily mean "I support Israel committing genocide." Your post is extremely low content.

That was sort of the point. The average American viewpoint on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is low content. You really think the average American understands what's actually going on there? The nuance of it all (even though it's not very nuanced)? No I'm sure the average American just knows that Israel are the "good guys" and the Palestinians do things like suicide bombings and shooting up raves so they are obviously the bad guys. Like that's probably the extent of the thought process for most Americans. If most Americans actually viewed the Israeli government as the genocidal maniacs they are then I don't think either of the 2 parties would be big supporters of Israel.

# ? Mar 12, 2024 23:33

socialsecurity: Aug 30, 2003

Charliegrs posted:

That was sort of the point. The average American viewpoint on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is low content. You really think the average American understands what's actually going on there? The nuance of it all (even though it's not very nuanced)? No I'm sure the average American just knows that Israel are the "good guys" and the Palestinians do things like suicide bombings and shooting up raves so they are obviously the bad guys. Like that's probably the extent of the thought process for most Americans. If most Americans actually viewed the Israeli government as the genocidal maniacs they are then I don't think either of the 2 parties would be big supporters of Israel.

Yes trying to explain even things like the settlements to people I know is a rough, up-hill battle.

# ? Mar 12, 2024 23:35

386-SX 25Mhz VGA: Jan 14, 2003; (C) American Megatrends Inc.,

socialsecurity posted:

Yes trying to explain even things like the settlements to people I know is a rough, up-hill battle.

I feel like just having people read through the Nakba Wikipedia article should be plenty for most, but that does require a little bit of reading. Before reading through that, I frankly didn�t understand the extent to which the existence of Israel was completely dependent on the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba

edit: I guess I should say �the existence of Israel in its current state,� since at least theoretically there could be a state named �Israel� on the same land that isn�t inherently genocidal.

386-SX 25Mhz VGA fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Mar 13, 2024

# ? Mar 13, 2024 00:29

DeadlyMuffin: Jul 3, 2007

socialsecurity posted:

Yes trying to explain even things like the settlements to people I know is a rough, up-hill battle.

I've had really good luck using settlements as an example of how Israel is actively sabotaging a two state solution.

# ? Mar 13, 2024 03:46

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

I'm guessing something set off Bibi and the Likudniks because now the JP is claiming that Biden is looking to overthrow Netanyahu.
https://twitter.com/Jerusalem_Post/status/1767680776512897318

quote:

The Biden administration is attempting to overthrow Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu�s government, a senior Israeli political official said on Tuesday night.

�We expect our friends to act to overthrow the terror regime of Hamas and not the elected government in Israel,� the official said, in reaction to the annual Threat Assessment report which warned that Netanyahu�s coalition could be replaced by a more moderate one.

�Netanyahu�s viability as [a] leader as well as his governing collation of far-right and ultra-orthodox parties that pursue hardline policies on Palestinian and security issues may be in doubt,� the US said in the report.

�Distrust of Netanyahu�s ability to rule has deepened and broadened across the public from its already high levels before the war,� it stated.

�We expect large protests demanding his resignation and new elections. A different, more moderate government is a possibility,� the report stated.

The senior official retorted that �Israeli citizens, and not anyone else, elect the prime minister. Israel is not a protectorate of the US but an independent and democratic country whose citizens are the ones who choose the government.�

The 41-page report was compiled in February and published only on March 11, as a diplomatic feud has grown between Netanyahu and Biden over Netanyahu's Gaza policies.

It began in earnest on Thursday when Biden was overheard saying that there needs to be a �come to Jesus meeting� with Netanyahu. It was followed by his comments to MSNBC on Sunday in which he stated that Netanyahu�s policies were harming Israel.

The comments, which fell in line with those in the report, come as Biden�s reelection campaign is heating up, with voters in the left flank of the Democratic Party accusing the President of supporting genocide against Palestinians in Gaza.

Attacks against Netanyahu, allow Biden to cater to voters opposed to the war while allowing him to maintain his strong support for Israel and its people.

In a virtual address to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, Netanyahu said on Tuesday, �I deeply appreciate, the support we've received from President Biden and the administration and I hope it will continue.�

# ? Mar 13, 2024 03:49

DarklyDreaming: Apr 4, 2009; Fun scary

Obligatory "I fuckin wish" comment

# ? Mar 13, 2024 03:56

Stringent: Dec 22, 2004; image text goes here

Young Freud posted:

I'm guessing something set off Bibi and the Likudniks because now the JP is claiming that Biden is looking to overthrow Netanyahu.
https://twitter.com/Jerusalem_Post/status/1767680776512897318

Pretty sure this is bullshit. I'm not really familiar with the Jerusalem Post, but given the other content on their Twitter feed* I'd be willing to bet that story is just clickbait.

* Eg:
https://x.com/Jerusalem_Post/status/1767742639938384297?s=20

# ? Mar 13, 2024 04:02

Yawgmoft: Nov 15, 2004

Stringent posted:

Pretty sure this is bullshit. I'm not really familiar with the Jerusalem Post, but given the other content on their Twitter feed* I'd be willing to bet that story is just clickbait.

I mean im sure there are studies being done by the White House on Netanyahu's political vitality but that's a far cry from actively trying to overthrow him.

# ? Mar 13, 2024 04:08

fool of sound: Oct 10, 2012

Stringent posted:

Pretty sure this is bullshit. I'm not really familiar with the Jerusalem Post, but given the other content on their Twitter feed* I'd be willing to bet that story is just clickbait.

Jerusalem Post is psycho Lukidnik bullshit targeted at the American right wing.

# ? Mar 13, 2024 04:12

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 25, 2024 09:09

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

fool of sound posted:

Jerusalem Post is psycho Lukidnik bullshit targeted at the American right wing.

At the same time, it does carry a lot of editorial weight, sharing a lot of staff between the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times.

# ? Mar 13, 2024 04:20

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel/Palestine

«‹›712 »