|
If the sculptor hasn't handled the pure greenstuff and personally breathed life into it, then the mini has no soul. (I am partial to the handmade stuff, as someone who just spend way too much on a full set of Jes Goodwin's old metal Escher  )
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2024 22:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 21:57 |
|
|
i should add, i think newer kits are overall better and i can live with assembling models and then cutting them into subassemblies if need be, but i do sympathize with the frustrations underlying nostalgia for the old ways
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2024 22:53
|
|
|
Paragon8 posted:Also with CAD elements they're probably borrowing bits from various works which makes attribution a little tricky. They probably have a huge shared library of skulls and poo poo like that. It's very helpful for making a bunch of new imperial guard models when you can use the same 3d model for all of them.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2024 23:02
|
|
|
Also much like how the global economy revolves around the standardized sizes of palettes and containers, GW's entire product line revolves around the roughly 8.25" - 8.5" x 5.5" sprue which is the size of most boxes you can buy. Warehousing is the most expensive part of GW's operations IIRC because you're just paying rent/AC/etc. to keep a bunch of boxes stacked up in a warehouse. Standardizing the size of all the products is part of making packing them and storing them more efficient, that's why a Brutalis Dreadnought box is the same size as an Intercessor box. It's also why big limited time boxes like Battleforces or Army Boxes often have units crammed in there that people consider to be "overstock" because you want to get rid of product that doesn't move to make room for product that does. Outriders and ATVs in the Space Marine Spearheard box, for example or whatever else random stuff you'd consider to "not make sense" to be in there. Note that those extra big boxes including edition boxes like Leviathan also fall under this standardized sprue size and you can stack Battleforces with Army Boxes with Edition Boxes and they are all the same size ᵃⁿᵈ ʳᵉᵐᶦⁿᵈ ʸᵒᵘ ᵗʰᵃᵗ ʸᵒᵘʳ ᵖᶦˡᵉ ᶦˢ ʷᵃʸ ᵗᵒᵒ ᵇᶦᵍ. A vehicle sprue is just two regular sprues in size (8.25" x 11") and every army box is sized such that they fit two vehicle sprues side by side. Similarly, in a battleforce box you'll notice that regular infantry sprues are also 8.25" x 11" because they haven't been snapped in two for packaging into a smaller box. A character sprue itself is around half the size of an infantry sprue! Everything is all somewhat mostly divisible and CAD allows you to basically min/max as many pieces as you can in a proscribed box size because you want to maximize the amount of product you can store in a given space. StashAugustine posted:Literally every engineer I work with or talked to refers to "CAD", I don't get how it's pejorative Yeah, GW fans love to wield the term like it's a sick own and I guess in their mind the only real way to make miniatures is by hand sculpting multipose space marines that permanently look like they're making GBS threads themselves no matter how you angle their heads, torsos or arms.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2024 23:10
|
|
|
StashAugustine posted:Literally every engineer I work with or talked to refers to "CAD", I don't get how it's pejorative You toe nail chewing CAD.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2024 23:38
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:the CAD design can also be annoying because it doesn't cut models in a natural way for kitbashing or painting in assemblies. for example: On the other hand this means that all the assembly points are hidden in a really clever way so that the seams between the parts won't be visible.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 00:19
|
|
|
Woo, just found a box hidden in my garage with my entire OG Delaque gang.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 00:24
|
|
|
Geisladisk posted:On the other hand this means that all the assembly points are hidden in a really clever way so that the seams between the parts won't be visible. I good counterpoint are the 30 year old skeleton sprues that just rereleased with The Old World. Spending more time clearing mold lines and flash than building the models.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 01:19
|
|
|
Eej posted:
You're just doing exactly what you said you don't like. People are allowed to have aesthetic preferences. Something traditionally sculpted and something designed on a computer are going to give very different results. Compounding this is that traditional sculpting is a mature art, CAD sculpting is an immature art. People are allowed to like one and not the other, and it only makes sense that lots of people prefer the one that is the product of a mature art, especially if you grew up only seeing the mature one. You are insisting that if I like an impressionistic oil painting of Paris in the rain I must also like this cell phone photo of Paris in the rain, and that to prefer one over the other is to be inconsistent. It just doesn't add up to me.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 01:26
|
|
|
I just think the Space Marine squat is funny and that grognards sour the experience more than better it. People are allowed to have aesthetic preferences that boil down to "I hate all the new stuff" and I'm also allowed to make fun of them for it!! e: to be clear, they are insisting that the Impressionist Paris Sous La Pluie is the only good painting and anything newer is dogshit made by dotards and in fact they'll just buy cheap Russian knockoffs of the new stuff if they need to Eej fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Mar 12, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 01:35
|
|
|
Eej posted:Cyclic Ion Blasters aren't even going to be an option soon on Crisis suits. God is great They're destroying the third party CIB printing industry
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 01:36
|
|
|
where would you even be seeing people complain about digital sculpting existing these days anyway. feels like I haven't seen even the old cranks on B&C get properly vitriolic over it for years
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 01:41
|
|
|
Eej posted:I just think the Space Marine squat is funny and that grognards sour the experience more than better it. People are allowed to have aesthetic preferences that boil down to "I hate all the new stuff" and I'm also allowed to make fun of them for it!! keep jousting at those windmills friend. You're exactly what you dislike.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 01:41
|
|
|
Virtual Russian posted:keep jousting at those windmills friend. You're exactly what you dislike. I honestly don't know what you're getting at. Old sculpts are cool, new sculpts are cool. Grognards are annoying. Assessor of Maat posted:where would you even be seeing people complain about digital sculpting existing these days anyway. feels like I haven't seen even the old cranks on B&C get properly vitriolic over it for years It's less common nowadays for sure but I know the old folks in the Drukhari and Dark Angels Discords still get ornery about CAD designs.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 01:51
|
|
|
I like some and dislike others. Of both. Mostly I like stuff, though! Including many of you fine folks!
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 01:53
|
|
|
The only thing I dislike is discovering how incompetent I am at basecoating!! Also, the Dutch. I had wondered what was up with some of those weird subcomponents, although when I realized it was for the most part hiding the seam lines I thought it was clever.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 02:00
|
|
|
Related to the ongoing discussion there was an interview up on youtube two weeks ago with one of the sculptors that worked at Citadel studios https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vhMow1U8-0 It also covers stuff like using different tools creating the sculpts and introduction of modern digital techniques.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 02:03
|
|
|
Eej posted:It's less common nowadays for sure but I know the old folks in the Drukhari and Dark Angels Discords still get ornery about CAD designs. lol, of course it's two situations where yelling about CAD makes no sense at all
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 02:16
|
|
|
Eej posted:Cyclic Ion Blasters aren't even going to be an option soon on Crisis suits. God is great I think a lot of Tau players are unhappy about this but honestly, it was really lovely that this unity was getting priced based on this one 'meta' loadout that doesnt even come in the box and also is outright superior to all other weapons in all situations, rendering the customizability of crisis suits totally moot. It will be cool that now I can choose between three different abilities and weapons sets out of one box.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 02:46
|
|
|
I honestly hated magnetising poo poo and trying to source CIBs so this is a change I've always wanted. The only downside to me is going to be if the support system is linked to the type of crisis team you have, but even then eh.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 03:03
|
|
|
CAD enables objectively lovely miniature design, such as the first wave of Wyrd miniatures plastics. Which replaced some very cool, very characterful designs with poser models cut into impossibly unmanageably fine fragments of pieces. Today, nearly the entire 3D print hobby is driven by CAD and it's a goddamn amazing creative wonderland.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 03:09
|
|
|
I'm just waiting for someone to make the neural network image to 3d model to print happen.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 03:24
|
|
|
Geisladisk posted:On the other hand this means that all the assembly points are hidden in a really clever way so that the seams between the parts won't be visible. In practice, it's just okay. There's a fair few seams in obtrusive places running up and down torsos on these cultists. On top of this, this kit is not the worst offender for long, fragile, dangling pieces that are hard to cut out of a sprue without breaking. They're just the one I had a picture handy to illustrate.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 04:10
|
|
|
Lostconfused posted:I'm just waiting for someone to make the neural network image to 3d model to print happen.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 05:16
|
|
|
That's just the zoomed in epic model
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 05:55
|
|
|
Eej posted:I honestly don't know what you're getting at. Old sculpts are cool, new sculpts are cool. Grognards are annoying. It felt like you are making up a type of guy to get mad at, sorry. CAD stuff goes way back, just it tended to be more on the side of tanks and stuff, but also plastic kits. The 2nd ed Leman Rus would be a CAD design almost certainly, and I'd bet a lot of money those 3rd edition (i think?) making GBS threads marines we all loved got designed on a computer and then milled out with a CNC (compare them to the RT marines). People only think of those as "traditional" because the technology was much less refined. As a sculptor I look at those and see a computer, but I could be wrong. I like both a lot, as do most people I know (who tend towards being grogs due to similar ages, I certainly am one myself). I do really enjoy traditional sculpts, but there is tons of good CAD stuff out there. I do feel like GW has some stuff to improve still, I simply can't stand any cloth/drapery they render with CAD, it just never looks fluid, nor can you get a sense of what it rests on. However, I also specialize in sculpting cloth in large clay sculptures, so that makes sense for me to be picky about. As I said before, CAD sculpting is an immature art, so it is only natural you will find more aesthetic issues and inconsistencies in CAD stuff. It can do stuff traditional sculpting simply cannot do though, that rules. Give it a couple more generations and I bet they will be far more consistent. There is already a ton of great stuff out there, I own tons of it, everyone does. It feels very weird to me that you insist the problem is grognards, and that everyone that disagrees with you must be one. It feels kinda like an easy answer. I'm an artist and art historian, this stance mimics the way people make broad declarations about "modern art". People get super worked up imagining what kind of person does or doesn't like "modern art", but at the end of the day you'll be extremely hard pressed to actually find anyone that thinks like that while having any interest in art. If someone doesn't like an artistic style it doesn't mean they have some underlying personality flaw, it just means they don't like what you like. I bet those folks in discord have legitimate reasons to prefer something else. You don't need to find some pathological explanation. Sorry if I was a bit short with you about that, it bugs me when someone declares everyone with a different stance is wrong, but also a flawed person for it. Virtual Russian fucked around with this message at 06:50 on Mar 12, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 06:46
|
|
|
quote is not edit
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 06:49
|
|
|
I made some sweet progress with my Onager Dunecrawler. I've got a greenstuff mold curing right now to make a final bit necessary for the elevated rail bar next to the hatch opening (I'm missing 3 out of the 4 pieces needed), then after that I can connect the rail. After that I've only one thing left and that's mounting my custom gun near the hatch; it turns out the original weapon that goes up top near said hatch is also missing! I also ordered some bases so this project will hopefully be done by the end of the month.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 07:01
|
|
|
Virtual Russian posted:CAD stuff goes way back, just it tended to be more on the side of tanks and stuff, but also plastic kits. The 2nd ed Leman Rus would be a CAD design almost certainly, and I'd bet a lot of money those 3rd edition (i think?) making GBS threads marines we all loved got designed on a computer and then milled out with a CNC (compare them to the RT marines). People only think of those as "traditional" because the technology was much less refined. As a sculptor I look at those and see a computer, but I could be wrong. The third edition multipart plastic marines, the ones in the starter box, were hand-sculpted, as were all of the tanks back in those days. GW's plastics were sculpted at three-times size, then scaled down with a pantograph. Originally a mechanical router jig, and later 3D scanners. I don't know what year they made the switch to scanners, but the example in that document is from 2003. GW didn't switch fully over to CAD until 2004-2005. I don't know when (if?) they stopped doing hand sculpting entirely, but at some point Jes Goodwin got promoted to a design lead, working more on concepts than individual sculpts.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 07:48
|
|
|
Virtual Russian posted:It felt like you are making up a type of guy to get mad at, sorry. These people absolutely do exist, and can get incredibly salty in exactly the kind of online places you'd expect; Reddit, Dakka Dakka, B&C, etc. Generally these complaints revolve around two main points. Firstly you can often find some heavily over-designed models that look fantastic when painted up well, but have too much detail to practically function as regular line troops. Secondly there's also a very inconsistent use of the word "monopose", which gets equally applied as a negative quality to most modern kits as it does to push-fit starter box models (which actually only have one pose). They actually do have a point; GW has done much better with the design of some kits & model ranges than others. For example the new World Eaters range has Eightbound and Jakhals which have some token wargear swaps but generally result in the same few dynamic poses repeated, and it's quite tricky to avoid this without some careful conversions. This problem can also be exacerbated by some factions (like WE again) having a limited model range to work from. Meanwhile, the SM Bladeguard kit is very cleverly CAD-designed to make 9 distinct poses from 3 bodies so you don't get any repetition. I can definitely see the frustration in buying certain premium kits that gets you poses noticeably repeated several times across your army, in the same way as if you'd bought several copies of the same pushfit starter box. However there's also a strong aspect of complaining about this stuff just for the sake of it. I've seen space marine intercessors or the new HH marines described as "monopose CAD trash" because the legs & torso only assemble one way, despite the possibility to swap arms, heads, and custom shoulder pads. Personally I think modern kits in this style look much better than the old fully multi-part 'squat' marines that had more room to be assembled poorly, but change is scary for some.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 10:01
|
|
|
fwiw I love hearing about the design and manufacturing side of minis so any info and insight about the processes is appreciated!Virtual Russian posted:It felt like you are making up a type of guy to get mad at, sorry. My own pet peeve is I really hate it when people make up guys to be mad about! It's like the number one style of Twitter post and I hate it! But I can think of multiple concrete examples where people use the acronym CAD as the ultimate dunk and I have probably forgotten a hundred more. There's a guy on the DA discord who randomly goes off about how CAD allows for laziness in posing and "shortcuts". How every Space Marine character is the same CAD file and is sarcastically excited to see the next 2 minute CAD job of a Primaris Lieutenant. How the "recent" move to CAD is why Horus Heresy Space Wolves look bad. Horus Heresy marine releases are so lazy because they didn't need to make Mk3 and Mk6 the exact same CAD poses to make hands interchangeable. Other things I've seen people post w/r/t Lazy Digital Sculpting:  Jump Captain is bad because they used an existing digital model as a base.  "GW need to dial back on the CAD"  "I think their CAD is showing again" Also lots of people will say random things like "oh man, can't wait for more tactical rocks and over designed CAD details" with or without specifically mentioning digital design. I've even seen someone say "whenever they get around to CAD-ing up the 5th edition Archon they should use that for the codex cover pose, better than (9th edition Drukhari) by a wide margin". You're right maybe I am pathologizing these people too much but most of them are old and set in their ways. I'm getting old too and I don't have the time to sit down and chat for hours with grumpy dudes about their specific hangups about Computers touching their miniatures. Which is funny as you've said, they've been using CAD for a long time so there's an unquantifiable "too much CAD" line that is crossed. Maybe my failing as an old is relying on my gut and experience to say "whatever this guy's deal is, any time I spend talking about our diverging views is wasted because I will never understand what makes them so grumpy" but seeing stuff like that all the time actually makes me spend less time in those communities. I don't like being negative and that's what hanging out in negative spaces does to me! If I'm gonna be negative I'd prefer it to be for a good reason rather than because I get annoyed and exasperated when some guy just rolls in saying wow, GW is so lazy cause they have computers: 
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 10:59
|
|
|
Overcomplicated horde unit sculpts are a huge problem, though not necessarily related to CAD design. I'm pretty happy I have enough old style plastic Cadians left over that I'll never have to paint any significant number of the new guys.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 11:13
|
|
|
New guard look great, new orks also look great but boyz need more variety of poses. Edit: The tactical rock is a problem though, someone needs to rein that in. Lostconfused fucked around with this message at 12:40 on Mar 12, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 12:37
|
|
|
Now I'm wondering if GW sculpts have a skeleton rig that can be moved around for posing, then any weirdness in the joints fixed manually. It would make a lot of sense for Marines in particular.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 12:51
|
|
|
Lostconfused posted:Edit: The tactical rock is a problem though, someone needs to rein that in. The tactical rock wouldn't even be much of a problem if they weren't sculpted to one foot of a model I feel. They really need to learn stop cutting the models to come with a piece of the scenic base attached to it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 13:04
|
|
|
Gravitas Shortfall posted:Now I'm wondering if GW sculpts have a skeleton rig that can be moved around for posing, then any weirdness in the joints fixed manually. It would make a lot of sense for Marines in particular. They absolutely would have this. It's a core 3d modelling skill, hobbyists have made poseable marines 3d printing.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 13:15
|
|
|
Eediot Jedi posted:They absolutely would have this. It's a core 3d modelling skill, hobbyists have made poseable marines 3d printing. Rigging for animation is its own separate skill and entire branch of career, usually you wouldn't need to do it for something you're sculpting in a particular pose and it honestly takes a lot of time to do it right and ensure the weights are painted so the joints can move right. A lot of hobbyists 3d prints don't have skeletons for that reason, and it seems like gw mails down the posing in the concept art phase, so I'd be surprised if they were paying people just to rig. Sharkopath fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Mar 12, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 13:54
|
|
|
Eej posted:fwiw I love hearing about the design and manufacturing side of minis so any info and insight about the processes is appreciated! Lol that dragon ogre shaggoth has been in the game since at least I was in elementary school reading my dad’s White Dwarfs
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 14:36
|
|
|
Oh man, I am spicy-pissed about these Tau battlesuit changes.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 14:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 21:57 |
|
|
I’m thinking about buying some Blightkings and painting them just for fun ^^^If I ever actually paint my suits I think I’ll try a two point magnetization method to make them more durable and switchable
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 14:53
|
|