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I'm trying to gatekeep it out of the bad genre and into the lucrative "indie bullet hell roguelike" bucket.
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Mar 12, 2024 18:48
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No Wave posted:I'm trying to gatekeep it out of the bad genre and into the lucrative "indie bullet hell roguelike" bucket. it is 2008. you are trying to argue that spelunky cannot be a roguelike because roguelikes are for smelly grogs and spelunky is too good to be a roguelike. this is not a battle you can win, friend
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Mar 12, 2024 18:49
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nrook posted:I was wondering recently. In its structure as a roguelike, TVRUHH is what I might call a “cheevo game”; the player’s goal when playing is typically to pick up various achievements by engaging with the game in a variety of ways. This structure typically coincides with a bunch of metaprogression (so the game has something to reward you with for getting cheevos) but it doesn’t necessarily have to. What are some other roguelikes like this? Isaac is, right? I'd say Revita, although it's got like a seventh the cheevos of Isaac and TVRUHH
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Mar 12, 2024 18:59
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Drone Incognito posted:I'm also going to shill a game that isn't really a roguelike, but the developer made One Step from Eden and iterated on it. "Build a deck" Yes "and battle" YES "online" gently caress that poo poo.
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Mar 12, 2024 19:02
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I play roguelikes/lites because the only time I have to deal with other people is reading about how much better at the game they are than me.
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Mar 12, 2024 19:03
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Shaman Tank Spec posted:"Build a deck" If you don't want the online pvp just play the game it's based on, One Step from Eden
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Mar 12, 2024 19:04
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I'm sad to report I am not as good as TVRUHH as I thought, as it turns out I can only beat Torrent Rain mode with the Defect, which is way easier than the other characters because she gets healed after every battle. I finally unlocked the last 2 characters and I can't even get through Heavy Rain with them. Although I might be getting artificially derailed a bit by charging hard at finishing every monster dream I get offered.
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Mar 12, 2024 19:09
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Countblanc posted:If you don't want the online pvp just play the game it's based on, One Step from Eden I have, but "iterated on One Step from Eden" sounded like a good thing too.
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Mar 12, 2024 19:09
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No Wave posted:I'm trying to gatekeep it out of the bad genre and into the lucrative "indie bullet hell roguelike" bucket. mad because bad
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Mar 12, 2024 19:19
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No Wave posted:Yes, I lack the character to enjoy stage memorization. So does almost everyone else and its why you all only play 15 year old games. This is why I would like to free Void Rains from your sick clutches (you guys dont even like the game). Is Dezatopia a SHMUP? Stage order isn't randomized, but there are dozens of different routes with different victory conditions that take you through 4 or 5 of the games 30+ stages. The game also has adaptive bullet patters that get easier as you play worse and get harder as you play better, and the items that show up in the shop are randomized, so on any given run your 4 weapons might not always be upgraded the same amount, and your stock of shields and bombs might be different. You get to choose which route you'll play - would it stop being a SHMUP if the game picked one for you at random? Is Raycrisis a SHMUP? Stage order is somewhat randomized (first and last stage are fixed, middle 3 are chosen randomly from a set of 5, with variants depending on the order they show up), but there's also an "encroachment" system that represents the cyberspace the game takes place in being taken over by viruses, which goes up over time but decreases as you kill enemies. The game changes depending on the encroachment level, including potentially kicking you straight to the final boss if it gets too high. ZeroRanger was definitely a SHMUP at release, but the devs added a side mode where you play through a bunch of short, one screen segments at random. Is that enough to free it from the SHMUP taint, or does the fact that each individual segment is still handcrafted drag it down?
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Mar 12, 2024 19:22
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Mar 12, 2024 19:24
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the argument is that the defining characteristics of shmups is that they're bad, so yes, star fox is a shmup
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Mar 12, 2024 19:25
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Snake Maze posted:ZeroRanger was definitely a SHMUP at release, but the devs added a side mode where you play through a bunch of short, one screen segments at random. Is that enough to free it from the SHMUP taint, or does the fact that each individual segment is still handcrafted drag it down?
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Mar 12, 2024 19:37
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Basically I think you're doing the same thing as when people would try to argue that Persona 4 isn't anime, really, because anime is bad but Persona 4 is good. There's not a clean line to be drawn between TVRUVUVH and other shmups, and there tons of games that are universally considered SHMUPS that have elements you claim are disqualifying. (Is Kokuga a shmup? Is Warning Forever a shmup? Is The Mode In Radiant Silvergun That Adds Permenant Metaprogression a shmup? etc etc)
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Mar 12, 2024 19:48
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no if it has metaprogression it's a roguelike
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Mar 12, 2024 19:55
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Snake Maze posted:Basically I think you're doing the same thing as when people would try to argue that Persona 4 isn't anime, really, because anime is bad but Persona 4 is good. There's not a clean line to be drawn between TVRUVUVH and other shmups, and there tons of games that are universally considered SHMUPS that have elements you claim are disqualifying. (Is Kokuga a shmup? Is Warning Forever a shmup? Is The Mode In Radiant Silvergun That Adds Permenant Metaprogression a shmup? etc etc)
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Mar 12, 2024 20:02
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Genre disagreements are a traditional rogue-like because you continuously restart and it's unlikely anyone will ever win
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Mar 12, 2024 20:22
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Tea Party Crasher posted:Genre disagreements are a traditional rogue-like because you continuously restart and it's unlikely anyone will ever win Not only that, there's no metaprogression, in the sense that we never loving learn from our mistakes 
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Mar 12, 2024 20:25
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Roki B posted:You're a schmup and the only ship I believe in is Theseus'. SHMUP of Theseus.
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Mar 12, 2024 20:26
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oh cool look at all these new posts something new must've come out oh genre arguments, lame.
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Mar 12, 2024 20:27
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Slotducks posted:oh cool look at all these new posts something new must've come out Literally half the time, it’s this.
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Mar 12, 2024 20:31
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madmatt112 posted:Literally half the time, it’s this. yep and ill never not poke my head in
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Mar 12, 2024 20:33
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We should start probating people for this, for our own sakes. Take the bottle away from me mods, don't give it back no matter how much I beg
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Mar 12, 2024 20:37
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Mar 12, 2024 20:37
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Raptor: call of the shadows It’s not a roguelike but it does rule
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Mar 12, 2024 21:20
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wait... is that background image... Biomega??
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Mar 12, 2024 21:23
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Talking about genres like they are god given unbreakable mandates and not entirely man made classifications for convenience and ease of sorting will always be so strange to me
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Mar 12, 2024 21:54
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No Wave posted:I'm going to throw some poop here but I dont even classify TVRUHH as a shmup. No Wave posted:Almost all of the most admired shmups (like the ~CAVE~ and ikaruga) are games with close to zero randomness Most touhou games include at least some random bullet patterns, some of which have the potential to wall you if you get unlucky on higher difficulties. Darius Gaiden has randomized score items, making playing for score on the higher end an exercise in RNG. Gradius II and IV have a lot of randomized stage hazards, like the volcanos and crystals. Also, as you loop, the revenge bullets enemies get are randomized. Cho Ren Sha 68k, the GOAT, also contains heavily randomized revenge bullets on loop. Honestly a lot of older shmups do, it was a trend for a bit. Those are just a few examples that come to mind, but you get the point. Everything in your posts on this subject points towards you being someone who doesn't really play shmups or have a great deal of understanding about them, so who the gently caress are you to gatekeep what is and is not a shmup?
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Mar 12, 2024 22:05
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Video games aren't Divine in origin? Then what did God do on Sunday hm?
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Mar 12, 2024 22:14
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All this talk about genre definitions prompted me to re-read the Berlin Interpretation, and: It is WAY WORSE than I remember. It's next to useless, and has probably harmed the genre almost as much as Rogue Legacy. The lowights, for me are: 1. Grid-based. Nope. While grids are certainly easier to program, I don't see what RLs gain by disavowing non-grid-based environments. Plus that bit at the end about how players and monsters must always occupy one cell of the grid - again, this is just a loss, and I'm glad actual games have felt free to ignore it. 2. Turn-based. If I'm playing Spelunky or Barony or FTL and pause to think out my next move, I'm getting all the same benefits that the author claims turn-based games provide. 3. Non-modal. This is why more classic RLs have you "quaff" potions or "evoke" wands or whatever, and why newer ones forget this stupid requirement and just show you an easy inventory menu. 4. Complexity. Complexity is a good thing in all genres - seems like a waste of space to try to ascribe it to one in particular. 5. Hack-n-slash. They buried a turd here. Read it to the end, especially this part: "there are no monster/monster relations (like enmities, or diplomacy)". Tricking enemies into fighting each other is incredibly fun I think, especially in Shiren, and seeing how they interact naturally in Caves of Qud is also interesting. Trying to legislate it out - as a footnote - is embarassing. 6. Single player character. More than the other items on the list, I do get why they put it here, but I still dislike it. A squad-based roguelike could be great IMO. FTL approaches this idea very nicely. 7. ASCII display. You do not dictate a game's art style as part of a genre definition. The other points are just dumb mostly, this one actually makes me angry. So I've basically gone from "the Berlin Interpretation was OK for its time" to "it was never good and should be expunged". A note at the end of the RogueBasin article is helpful: "In the wider gaming community the term roguelike or "with roguelike elements" is more popularly used to describe any game combining permadeath with procedural content." This is gonna be my good-enough definition for the foreseeable future.
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Mar 12, 2024 22:44
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what the gently caress is a roguelike do you guys mean rougelikes? 
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Mar 12, 2024 22:53
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Tequila Bob posted:All this talk about genre definitions prompted me to re-read the Berlin Interpretation, and: So your examples like this one- quote:5. Hack-n-slash. They buried a turd here. Read it to the end, especially this part: "there are no monster/monster relations (like enmities, or diplomacy)". Tricking enemies into fighting each other is incredibly fun I think, especially in Shiren, It doesn't matter whether monster infighting is good or not, it and other complex relations like it do not exist in Rogue. So, if a different game also just has simplistic monster relations without diplomacy, that is a similarity it has with the game Rogue. It is, quite literally, like Rogue in that sense. That's the whole point.
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Mar 12, 2024 22:58
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I hope you soon get to choose whether or not to identify your items
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Mar 12, 2024 23:09
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Tequila Bob posted:All this talk about genre definitions prompted me to re-read the Berlin Interpretation, and: I don't especially like the berlin interpretation but this entire post is based on the misunderstanding that it is a list of rules instead of a list of commonly seen features which contribute to how like rogue something is also I'm pretty sure an inventory screen doesn't count as non-modal, it just means like there's no world map and when fights start you don't get teleported to the Fight Dimension
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Mar 12, 2024 23:15
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LazyMaybe posted:The Berlin interpretation is still just as useful as it ever was when you understand that it does not exist to serve as a way to make value judgements about how good any game is, but instead to literally show how "like" the game Rogue it is. It is actually neither of those. It is a definition of the term "roguelike", and as a definition is is full of arbitrary clauses and needless restrictions. LazyMaybe posted:It doesn't matter whether monster infighting is good or not, it and other complex relations like it do not exist in Rogue. Did you really just say "it and other complex relations like it do not exist in Rogue"? Because "complexity" is highlighted as a requirement for a roguelike elsewhere in the same document. The BI is being weird in encouraging "complexity" in the vaguest terms possible, while forbidding this one source of complexity very specifically. cock hero flux posted:I don't especially like the berlin interpretation but this entire post is based on the misunderstanding that it is a list of rules instead of a list of commonly seen features which contribute to how like rogue something is The BI itself claims to be a definition of "roguelike". So that's how I'm evaluating it. cock hero flux posted:also I'm pretty sure an inventory screen doesn't count as non-modal, it just means like there's no world map and when fights start you don't get teleported to the Fight Dimension I'm not gonna get worked up about it, but I will let you know that the word "modal" actually does apply to inventory screens and the like. Notice that the BI itself calls out Crawl's shops as non-modal.
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Mar 12, 2024 23:28
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Tequila Bob posted:The BI itself claims to be a definition of "roguelike". So that's how I'm evaluating it. "This list can be used to determine how roguelike a game is. Missing some points does not mean the game is not a roguelike. Likewise, possessing some points does not mean the game is a roguelike. " Tequila Bob posted:I'm not gonna get worked up about it, but I will let you know that the word "modal" actually does apply to inventory screens and the like. Notice that the BI itself calls out Crawl's shops as non-modal.
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Mar 12, 2024 23:38
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the fundamental axiom of roguelikes is "it uses the numpad or hjklyubn for character movement" imo
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Mar 12, 2024 23:41
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nrook posted:I hope you soon get to choose whether or not to identify your items Wow, hoping for my death because I criticized something you like. Personally, I hope you don't die, and I hope you do get a better definition of Roguelike to defend and don't have to make excuses for.
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Mar 12, 2024 23:44
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Tequila Bob posted:It is actually neither of those. It is a definition of the term "roguelike", and as a definition is is full of arbitrary clauses and needless restrictions. You may disagree but it is a very straightforward and reasonable definition. The only part that is really subjective is the ordering of which aspects are more important and which are less important, but I doubt many people who are truly familiar with RLs would disagree that "Random environment generation" and "Permadeath" belong at the top of the list while "ASCII display", "Dungeons" and "Numbers" are less important to the feel of the genre. Tequila Bob posted:Did you really just say "it and other complex relations like it do not exist in Rogue"? And yes, Rogue does not have these sorts of more complex monster relations. There is no monster infighting, no monster diplomacy, etc. Monsters only exist to be obstacles to the player and cannot be reasoned with and will not fight each other. That's just how the game is, so other games also being like that makes them more like Rogue. LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 12, 2024 23:57
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cock hero flux posted:to quote directly from it: I haven't forgotten it says this. But then, how is it that the BI can claim to be a definition of roguelike (which it does claim) when it's not even definite? My point is, as a definition of a game genre, it's a failure which has had negative effects on the games in the genre. If we ignore its claim to be a definition, then sure, it goes from being a very poor definition to just an arbitrary list of some features from some games in 2008. cock hero flux posted:modal stuff https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(user_interface) An inventory screen is "modal" specifically because your input changes while you have it open. You can't move or attack while it's open. Rogue and Nethack use "quaff" and "evoke" commands specifically to avoid inventory screens and remain non-modal. Unlike the term "roguelike", this is actually pretty cut-and-dry already. Tequila Bob fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 00:02
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