|
Tequila Bob posted:I haven't forgotten it says this. But then, how is it that the BI can claim to be a definition of roguelike (which it does claim) when it's not even definite? The word "hot" is also ambiguous, but that doesn't mean it has no definition or meaning, it doesn't communicate nothing. Your food can be more or less hot, and your game can be more rogue-like or less rogue-like.
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 00:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 12, 2024 22:55 |
|
|
Tequila Bob posted:Wow, hoping for my death because I criticized something you like. That’s right. Prepare your bones file, bitch
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 00:15
|
|
|
LazyMaybe posted:Obviously I am talking about complex monster relations there, given the context(talking about the listed aspect saying "there are no monster/monster relations like enmities, or diplomacy".) Right. The BI goes from "Roguelikes should be complex (vaguely)" to "but make sure this one specific aspect is not complex" and it doesn't regard this as a contradiction. And this contradiction exists in a self-proclaimed definition of a game genre. I think my problem with the BI can be better summed up than I've done earlier. I see Rogue as the start of a genre which has - still has - great potential to expand. The BI sees Rogue as the ideal roguelike, already perfected, and thinks any difference from Rogue (more specifically, this list of arbitrary features of Rogue) puts a given game further outside the genre. There's no gain whatsoever in saying that a game with modes, non-ASCII graphics, and complex monster relations is somehow less roguelike. And that is specifically the entire purpose which the BI serves.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 00:19
|
|
|
Tequila Bob posted:I haven't forgotten it says this. But then, how is it that the BI can claim to be a definition of roguelike (which it does claim) when it's not even definite? first off, it hasn't had negative effects because people do not develop games in order to fit the berlin interpretation of what is a roguelike. I would be extremely surprised to discover a game developer saying "yeah I was going to include an overworld map but then I remember that the Berlin Interpretation said that would be less of a roguelike, so I didn't". It can be argued that it had negative effects on the discourse surrounding the genre, but to say that it negatively affected how games were developed is something that you would need substantial evidence to back up. As for modality, again, that might be the way the term is defined from a programming standpoint but it's fairly evident that it's not the definition being used here. You will note that the definition you have linked literally considers pressing the Caps Lock button to be a mode. By this definition, funnily enough, Rogue itself fails to satisfy this criteria. The obvious conclusion to be drawn here is that the people who wrote this definition were not using it in the strict, programming sense of the word, but rather in the way that matches the examples they gave.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 00:23
|
|
|
My new definition of "Roguelike" is "fans constantly have insufferable arguments about it".
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 00:27
|
|
|
TooMuchAbstraction posted:My new definition of "Roguelike" is "fans constantly have insufferable arguments about it". this can include almost any game
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 00:28
|
|
|
Huh, The Last Spell really does not gently caress around. I was wholly unprepared for the second boss and even after I killed it turns out that was just the first phase lol
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 00:30
|
|
|
I think everyone needs to sit down and actually play 10 minutes of rogue before they apply a label like roguelike to another game. Play the two games one after the other, and maybe be like, huh, this is like rogue.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 00:33
|
|
|
cock hero flux posted:this can include almost any game Azran posted:Huh, The Last Spell really does not gently caress around. I was wholly unprepared for the second boss and even after I killed it turns out that was just the first phase lol
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 00:37
|
|
|
Tequila Bob posted:Right. The BI goes from "Roguelikes should be complex (vaguely)" to "but make sure this one specific aspect is not complex" and it doesn't regard this as a contradiction. quote:====Hack'n'slash==== quote:====Complexity==== There is absolutely no contradiction between either of these statements. And as cock hero flux said just above, your assertion that the BI "has had negative effects on the games in the genre" is just nonsense. No one is going around designing games using the BI as a list of constraints, and if they did, they would be actively going against the the BI directly says, because right at the start it contains this bit: The purpose of the definition is for the roguelike community to better understand what the community is studying. It is not to place constraints on developers or games. If someone were to read that, and then treat it as a list of constraints anyways, that's their own drat fault. Luckily, no one ever does this!
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 00:37
|
|
|
Tequila Bob posted:Right. The BI goes from "Roguelikes should be complex (vaguely)" to "but make sure this one specific aspect is not complex" and it doesn't regard this as a contradiction. And this contradiction exists in a self-proclaimed definition of a game genre. I think this is projecting a level of authority on the Berlin Interpretation that the Interpretation itself is not aiming for. I mean, even there in the name - it's the Berlin Interpretation, not the Berlin Definition. It outright says right at the start Berlin Interpretation posted:This list can be used to determine how roguelike a game is. Missing some points does not mean the game is not a roguelike. Likewise, possessing some points does not mean the game is a roguelike. All the BI really is is a bunch of nerd sitting down and saying "Okay, we all like roguelikes... but what are roguelikes, really? What do we mean when we say a game is a roguelike?" And I mean, that's kind of a hard question, right? "Roguelike" is not a meaningless term. But that's all it really is, nerds trying their best to nail down something ambiguous. It's not a rulebook or a set of requirements, and it was never trying to be. And, yeah, with the passage of time and more games coming out, we can look back and decide that some of the points in the BI are more accurate than others, that some of the points might not matter for a game fitting in to what it is that we refer to when we give something the "Traditional Roguelike" tag on steam. But that's just a continuation of the same nerd discussions that created the BI in the first place, not a proof that it's fundamentally flawed or anything.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 00:45
|
|
|
Shouldn't have bought that Berlin interpretation upgrade in the metaprogress shop. It has diluted the pool and shows up on all my runs in the roguelike thread.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 00:56
|
|
|
RoboCicero posted:looks like it works to me! Yeah also runs are long - I just died one turn away from killing the second boss' last phase (Most of the characters I lost were to 'oh boomers can hit through walls' or 'oh this boss has an ever-increasing AoE on each phase') and all 12 waves were five hours and a half lol
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 00:58
|
|
|
cock hero flux posted:first off, it hasn't had negative effects because people do not develop games in order to fit the berlin interpretation of what is a roguelike. I would be extremely surprised to discover a game developer saying "yeah I was going to include an overworld map but then I remember that the Berlin Interpretation said that would be less of a roguelike, so I didn't". It can be argued that it had negative effects on the discourse surrounding the genre, but to say that it negatively affected how games were developed is something that you would need substantial evidence to back up. The bolded part is actually a much better phrasing of the point I was trying to make (and will admit I did not make). Thanks! Snake Maze posted:I think this is projecting a level of authority on the Berlin Interpretation that the Interpretation itself is not aiming for. I mean, even there in the name - it's the Berlin Interpretation, not the Berlin Definition. ==Preamble== This definition of "Roguelike" was created at the International Roguelike Development Conference 2008 and is the product of a discussion between all who attended. To be clear, if the BI did not claim to be a definition, it would be better. As a list of some qualities of some games in 2008, it is mostly successful. The point - the entire point - of the BI is to look at a game like Caves of Qud or Shiren or ToME and asses how roguelike they are. And the standards it uses to measure this are very flawed and arbitrary.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 01:01
|
|
|
The only thing that the Berlin interpretation has taught me is that I do not ever want to go to a rogue like development conference
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 01:09
|
|
|
The main problem is that ultimately, "how similar is this to the game Rogue" is not actually a particularly useful yardstick. Even among hardcore traditionalists it's been decades since Rogue was actually a definitive experience. The bigger question is "What is it about Rogue that people actually liked? What did Rogue tap into that gave it such conceptual staying power?"
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 01:14
|
|
|
you're really assigning way too much weight on the use of imprecise language used by a bunch of nerds deciding to try and define roguelike anyone can try and define a thing and that doesn't make it important or noteworthy, it has relatively small fame due the niche nature of the genre, and fans latching onto it during a time where it was mostly forgotten. This doesn't make it worth dissecting with a heavy critical eye no matter how much it calls itself a definition. Even if it claimed to be 'The Roguelike Definition', you would be better served discussing with developers and designers why they are following a definition instead of thinking through their choices to create the best game and systems they can this is generally what they do now it seems considering the looseness of the genre. All because it is not centered on a very specific defining principle and is quite open to interpretation
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 01:16
|
|
|
the holy poopacy posted:The main problem is that ultimately, "how similar is this to the game Rogue" is not actually a particularly useful yardstick. Even among hardcore traditionalists it's been decades since Rogue was actually a definitive experience. The bigger question is "What is it about Rogue that people actually liked? What did Rogue tap into that gave it such conceptual staying power?" Excellent post.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 01:16
|
|
|
the holy poopacy posted:The main problem is that ultimately, "how similar is this to the game Rogue" is not actually a particularly useful yardstick. Even among hardcore traditionalists it's been decades since Rogue was actually a definitive experience. The bigger question is "What is it about Rogue that people actually liked? What did Rogue tap into that gave it such conceptual staying power?" Yeah if we still called first person shooters Doom clones we'd be having God awful conversations about whether or not having actual three-dimensional rooms above rooms disqualifies your game from being a part of the genre
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 01:16
|
|
|
Quake is a doomlite because it was designed around mouse look
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 01:17
|
|
|
Tea Party Crasher posted:The only thing that the Berlin interpretation has taught me is that I do not ever want to go to a rogue like development conference Which is a shame, because Roguelike Celebration is super cool and chill. Lots of roguelike developers there, talks diving into how their games work, weird niche roguelikes (there was one on a realtime multiplayer roguelike on the Commodore 64k, for crying out loud!), people just generally having a good time enjoying their interests. It's (these days) a fully-online convention with a custom MUD-styled virtual space, talks given over Twitch (and then archived to YouTube), definitely worth checking out. Here's a few classic talks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKCRim02opc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYMdMAvTHpo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnFj3dOKcIQ
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 01:27
|
|
|
the holy poopacy posted:The main problem is that ultimately, "how similar is this to the game Rogue" is not actually a particularly useful yardstick. Even among hardcore traditionalists it's been decades since Rogue was actually a definitive experience. The bigger question is "What is it about Rogue that people actually liked? What did Rogue tap into that gave it such conceptual staying power?" this is actually my own problem with the berlin interpretation: you actually can create a simple, strict definition for what a roguelike was generally considered to be at the time. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be able to include everything it needed to include and still exclude everything that it needs to exclude to be a useful definition of the term. The interpretation, instead of doing this, manages to be overly broad by being wishy-washy about whether it should actually be used as a definition at all, and overly narrow by including a long list of points which by its own admission some of the genre-defining games already break.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 01:28
|
|
|
If I ever tried to define what I think people are referring to when they say a game is a roguelike, I would definitely, right at the very top, make sure to specify that "roguelike" is not the same thing as "like-rogue". That way, nobody would be confused and try to refute something I'm not saying.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 01:28
|
|
|
TooMuchAbstraction posted:Which is a shame, because Roguelike Celebration is super cool and chill. Lots of roguelike developers there, talks diving into how their games work, weird niche roguelikes (there was one on a realtime multiplayer roguelike on the Commodore 64k, for crying out loud!), people just generally having a good time enjoying their interests. It's (these days) a fully-online convention with a custom MUD-styled virtual space, talks given over Twitch (and then archived to YouTube), definitely worth checking out. Here's a few classic talks: Thank you for turning my snarky joke into a positive learning moment, this is awesome
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 01:31
|
|
|
bobthenameless posted:the fundamental axiom of roguelikes is "it uses the numpad or hjklyubn for character movement" imo Yeah, I was thinking exactly this the last time I saw this subject, the best strict qualifier for "roguelike" instead of "roguelite" I could come up with is if I can play it with vim keys.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 01:48
|
|
|
Tea Party Crasher posted:Yeah if we still called first person shooters Doom clones we'd be having God awful conversations about whether or not having actual three-dimensional rooms above rooms disqualifies your game from being a part of the genre This is a key facet of why the BI is silly cargo cult nonsense -- genres are allowed to evolve and grow past their origins, obviously; probing at the boundaries of genre and seeing what happens is part of a healthy artistic scene and is part of why genre exists as a meaningful concept. Newer inventions like metaprogression, ascension/heat systems, etc are a legitimate part of the roguelike genre with equal authenticity to older considerations such as the non-modality clause; they're just different branches on the evolutionary tree, and that's completely okay. It's also totally okay to prefer certain "flavors" of RL over others. There are probably plenty of genres that you take for granted that already have this degree of speciation inside of them -- do you like high fantasy or gritty low fantasy? Hard sci-fi or space operas? Do you like slapstick comedy or satire? What sort of music do you listen to, and how many different niche subgenres exist inside of it? And so on, ad infinitum. No one tries arguing that Halo isn't an FPS because you have regenerating health instead of medpacks, or because there aren't colored keycards, or you can only carry two weapons, or that there's vehicles. Even though all of these are very different design decisions from older games! King of Bleh fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Mar 13, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 01:58
|
|
|
King of Bleh posted:This is a key facet of why the BI is silly cargo cult nonsense -- genres are allowed to evolve and grow past their origins, obviously; probing at the boundaries of genre and seeing what happens is part of a healthy artistic scene and is part of why genre exists as a meaningful concept. I will argue that metaprogression, as commonly implemented, is absolutely not a legitimate part of the genre or a natural evolution of it. It is directly contrary to the design philosophy that established the genre. This is not the same as declaring that Halo isn't an FPS because there's vehicles; this is like declaring that Grand Theft Auto isn't a racing game because the point of the game isn't racing.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 02:03
|
|
|
Rogue is a simulation of walking from one end of the dungeon to the other therefore
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 02:07
|
|
|
cock hero flux posted:I will argue that metaprogression, as commonly implemented, is absolutely not a legitimate part of the genre or a natural evolution of it. It is directly contrary to the design philosophy that established the genre. This is not the same as declaring that Halo isn't an FPS because there's vehicles; this is like declaring that Grand Theft Auto isn't a racing game because the point of the game isn't racing. This begs the question by assuming that all true roguelike games have a specific immutable "point," rather than being a collection of works with mechanical and thematic similarities. "A fixed-difficulty game where each run you either beat it or you don't" is one key facet of the genre, but it's not the "point" of the genre and has no more or less authority granted to it from some hypothetical Game Design Genre-Ruling Deity. It ultimately feels like a retread of the earlier shmup argument where the "point" of a true shmup is to memorize fixed levels... e: I also think it's okay to acknowledge that sometimes fads in design lead to things that are bad and dumb and not fun, without discrediting a game's identity. Platformers went through a whole Thing in the early-3D era where every game inevitably revolved around hoovering up hundreds of collectible doodads in various categories to unlock progress, instead of progressing linearly through levels and completing them by reaching the end. I personally found this asinine and had nothing to do with what I perceived at the time to be the "point" of the Mario-likes I grew up with, but I also don't think it discredits those games' identity in any way. King of Bleh fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Mar 13, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 02:11
|
|
|
Dedicated "quaff" button is silly but I will die on the hill that being able to rob the shopkeeper makes a game more roguelikey than one where you can't. Spelunky is a roguelike in a lot of ways that Rogue Legacy or Dead Cells or Risk of Rain or whatever are not, and everybody likes to jump on metaprogression or the lack thereof, but IMO it's like one of the least important indicators that Spelunky is a true roguelike. Nonmodality, on the other hand, is way way up there -- it's even more "pure" than Rogue in that regard edit: and actually, if Spelunky had an inventory menu pop up where you had to choose whether to [u]se your bombs or your rope, it would lose something, so maybe that's a point in the quaff button's corner.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 02:26
|
|
|
King of Bleh posted:This begs the question by assuming that all true roguelike games have a specific immutable "point," rather than being a collection of works with mechanical and thematic similarities. "A fixed-difficulty game where each run you either beat it or you don't" is one key facet of the genre, but it's not the "point" of the genre and has no more or less authority granted to it from some hypothetical Game Design Genre-Ruling Deity. It ultimately feels like a retread of the earlier shmup argument where the "point" of a true shmup is to memorize fixed levels... As a baseline, a roguelike in the original sense is a turn-based RPG. A roguelike is differentiated from the broader category of turn-based RPGs by two defining features: permadeath and randomly generated layout. Now, if you examine the design philosophy that leads to this, you can figure out, in at least a nebulous sense, what the "point" of a roguelike is. ie: why did roguelikes break the standard conventions of the RPG genre in this way consistently to the point where they became a recognizable sub-genre? An RPG is expected to have a save/load system that allows players to restart after loss from places other than the beginning, and it is expected to have a fixed layout that does not change even if the game is completely restarted. What were the developers of the various defining roguelikes hoping to accomplish by doing the opposite of this: making RPGs where you start over from nothing every time you lose, and in which the layout is randomly generated each time? Well, the straightforward answer is that they were trying to make each run a unique and new challenge, to make sure that the player was forced to approach them from a blank slate rather than carrying anything over from prior runs, and to prevent the pitfall often encountered in other RPGs where players are able to retry specific sections over and over again until they luck their way through. So, the goal was that each run would be a fresh challenge that players would have to overcome through their own skill at the game rather than by brute force retrying or by being able to overwhelm it with power acquired previously. With that in mind, consider the implication of metaprogression as typically implemented. This is not speaking to stuff like TOME's metaprogression of unlocking starting options. This is about metaprogression where the player's starting power level increases based on things that happen in previous runs. What does the addition of that do to the original design philosophy? In my estimation, it fatally undermines by breaking the layer separation between runs. Because dying makes you more powerful, brute forcing your way through the game by simply puffing your power level up to the point where you can complete it becomes a viable, and in some cases the only viable, strategy for winning. This is not an evolution of the original concept; it is a total reversal of it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 02:30
|
|
|
It's only a "reversal" if you view difficulty as a non-reducible element of the genre, rather than a incidental footnote. A game can be easy, or can start hard and get easy, or can start easy and get hard, and still have the essential qualities of a roguelike. You still start over on failure, and you still experience new random elements upon restart, so why not? It's literally just difficulty, it's a glorified slider in a menu.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 02:40
|
|
|
TooMuchAbstraction posted:Which is a shame, because Roguelike Celebration is super cool and chill. Lots of roguelike developers there, talks diving into how their games work, weird niche roguelikes (there was one on a realtime multiplayer roguelike on the Commodore 64k, for crying out loud!), people just generally having a good time enjoying their interests. It's (these days) a fully-online convention with a custom MUD-styled virtual space, talks given over Twitch (and then archived to YouTube), definitely worth checking out. Here's a few classic talks: I'm gonna be a huge debbie downer here and poo-poo on one of my favorite caves, Qud; Brian opens proudly with a bunch of examples of how one one algorithm generated a bunch of flavorfully-distinct areas, but all my eyes make out is procgen trash. Qud's rng villages and dungeons have always been an awful drag to explore and play in, and while the tool he's demonstrating is clearly some black magic voodoo, his end results are not as Sorry Unormal =[ Serephina fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Mar 13, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 02:41
|
|
|
This is the problem with proc gen in general at a certain point the potential variety just becomes slurry to the human mind.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 02:44
|
|
|
King of Bleh posted:It's only a "reversal" if you view difficulty as a non-reducible element of the genre, rather than a incidental footnote. A game can be easy, or can start hard and get easy, or can start easy and get hard, and still have the essential qualities of a roguelike. You still start over on failure, and you still experience new random elements upon restart, so why not? It's literally just difficulty, it's a glorified slider in a menu. That has really nothing to do with it all. Having selectable difficulty levels is not at issue here, and having metaprogression directly increase player power level is very different conceptually from having selectable difficult levels.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 02:45
|
|
|
goferchan posted:Spelunky is a roguelike in a lot of ways that Rogue Legacy or Dead Cells or Risk of Rain or whatever are not, and everybody likes to jump on metaprogression or the lack thereof, but IMO it's like one of the least important indicators that Spelunky is a true roguelike. Nonmodality, on the other hand, is way way up there -- it's even more "pure" than Rogue in that regard wired: getting launched by an arrow trap and bouncing down several stories onto a kali altar to instantly sacrifice yourself is non-modal King of Bleh posted:It's only a "reversal" if you view difficulty as a non-reducible element of the genre, rather than a incidental footnote. A game can be easy, or can start hard and get easy, or can start easy and get hard, and still have the essential qualities of a roguelike. You still start over on failure, and you still experience new random elements upon restart, so why not? It's literally just difficulty, it's a glorified slider in a menu. cock hero flux posted:That has really nothing to do with it all. Having selectable difficulty levels is not at issue here, and having metaprogression directly increase player power level is very different conceptually from having selectable difficult levels. Gaining power permanently after death is the opposite of this, regardless of how easy or hard the game is.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 02:54
|
|
|
well the game still counts the favour points when that happens
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 02:56
|
|
|
video games > Roguelikes: Trying to define what is a roguelike is a kind of roguelike
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 03:40
|
|
|
Roguelikes: The Berlin Trepidation
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 03:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 12, 2024 22:55 |
|
|
can we just gas this stupid loving thread by now, honestly
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 04:00
|
|
