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Quantum Cat posted:Is anyone else getting tired of being forced to assume good faith from this cavalcade of hasbara shitheads kramering into the thread to retread the same old discussed to death and thoroughly discredited genocidal talking points and then vanish in a puff of smoke when anyone tries to get them to defend their mindless lust for Palestinian death only for the next one in the queue to rinse and repeat and so on? Because holy poo poo is it exhausting to read. What, you don't like 2137 iterations of "well, starving civilians and kids shot by snipers are bad, but can we talk about condemning Hamas instead?" discussions? Repetitiveness is their shield.
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# ? Mar 11, 2024 01:45 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 03:30 |
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Skex posted:They are not a Leftist organization. They are a right-wing authoritarian religious movement and there is no reason to believe that they would honor a ceasefire. The Oct 7th attack was intended to evoke exactly this kind of overeation from the Israel. So the most likely scenario if Israel were to engage in a unilateral ceasefire would be for Hamas to initiate another provocation which would really set the genocide into high gear. What kind of whacko religion considers the holy land sacred
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# ? Mar 11, 2024 06:01 |
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https://www.politico.eu/article/israels-netanyahu-says-he-will-defy-bidens-red-line-and-invade-rafah/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=social I mean, even calling it a red line is stretching it a lot at this point. But it'll still be grimly amusing to see Bibi just deliberately making GBS threads on his main, long-term benefactor while still being showered with bennies. He might as well wear a MAGA hat when he announces the operation itself.
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# ? Mar 11, 2024 11:43 |
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Well you can see his own contradictory phrasing.quote:“It is a red line, but I am never going to leave Israel. The defence of Israel is still critical, so there’s no red line [where] I’m going to cut off all weapons so they don’t have the Iron Dome to protect them,” Biden said quote:“But there’s red lines that if he crosses them…”, Biden said without finishing his chain of thought, adding that his administration “cannot have 30,000 more Palestinians dead”. He didn't finish his sentence because I don't think he has anything to finish it with. Netanyahu can rightly ignore any of this blustering because Biden isn't willing to back it up with even a verbal description of consequences. Can't have 30,000 more Palestinians murdered but the first 30,000 were a-ok. It's a pathetic display.
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# ? Mar 11, 2024 14:25 |
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I'm sure that with the 59,999th casualty he'll get serious.
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# ? Mar 11, 2024 15:25 |
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DeadlyMuffin posted:My point is that this kind of statement: You should have included the latter half of the sentence you quoted, which makes it clear that I'm comparing Biden's actions to the historical actions taken by other presidents. quote:Were previous presidents also bad? Yes. Joe Biden is much worse. We know this based on the genocide he's currently presiding over, and also we know that previous presidents, as late as Obama, have tried to yank Israel's leash, even over things much less severe than the current genocide. Biden directly undermined the Obama administration's efforts to control Netanyahu. Biden has not, and will not put limits on Israel. In none of that am I inviting you to write fanfiction about what you think Trump would do. I am making the argument that Biden's actions so far are uniquely bad, and I am saying that I don't believe he will change his tune.
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# ? Mar 11, 2024 16:24 |
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Since there's been a lot of talk about how Hamas and how this is all their fault I guess we can check in and see how the West Bank is doing, turns out it's not very good!The Washington Post posted:NABLUS, West Bank — The signs of economic distress are everywhere in Nablus, a once-bustling hub of Palestinian commerce now paralyzed by Israel’s tightening grip on life and work in the West Bank. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/11/israel-gaza-west-bank-economy/
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# ? Mar 11, 2024 18:15 |
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Tesseraction posted:I'm sure that with the 59,999th casualty he'll get serious. the trick is that israel's been targetting hospitals etc so probably the healthcare authorities are having a harder time counting. they also have a pretty conservative method from my recollection. thus, if israel can take out the entire administrative apparatus within the next 30,000 counted deaths, they can do whatever they want!
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# ? Mar 11, 2024 19:25 |
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One weird trick to covering up your war crimes! Den Haag Hates it!
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# ? Mar 11, 2024 19:51 |
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Blowing up the hospitals and health ministry was strategically the best move theyve made in the genocide. The 30k number has been frozen in the Discourse and they are free to kill as many as possible without number going up.
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# ? Mar 11, 2024 20:05 |
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National Parks posted:Because "Biden is uniquely bad in regards to Israel" is a historical discussion, while "Trump would be worse, at this moment in time" is hypothetical guesswork. Trump and Kushner have a very public record of courting hard line middle east governments. Kushner and US mercenaries were directly involved MBS's coup. I'm having trouble imagining any GOP candidate entertaining any pro Palestinian positions.
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# ? Mar 11, 2024 20:25 |
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Shuka posted:Trump and Kushner have a very public record of courting hard line middle east governments. Kushner and US mercenaries were directly involved MBS's coup. I'm having trouble imagining any GOP candidate entertaining any pro Palestinian positions. I don't think anyone is saying that Trump and his ilk are posting watermelon emojis and all in for Palestinian statehood. At best, they are fickle and distracted with other grifts and might not fully play with the establishment formula of total support. Or just ignore the region, which is often enough of a boon. As comparison, some of the best times in South American history were during the War on Terror, because Bush and his crew were so busy with dreams of building their new imperial order in the Middle east warzone that they mostly ignored the region, instead of doing the usual rounds of backing coups and debt-bondage (There was the fun Carmona coup attempt in Venezuela eraly on, but that was before the war really got going). Labor-aligned government were elected and even allowed to come to power and govern! Then the GWOT wound down, Saint Obama came to town to restore civility and decency, with the establishment adults back in charge, was hugging Lula and saying he was 'the man' while the machinery of his government engineered a wave of judicial coups that set the region back at least a decade and gave birth to a thousand privatizations. I'm not saying the millions of death and displacements of the GWOT were 'good' because they diverted imperial focus, but usually, the only decent thing an empire can do for a region is be elsewhere.
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# ? Mar 11, 2024 21:34 |
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V. Illych L. posted:the trick is that israel's been targetting hospitals etc so probably the healthcare authorities are having a harder time counting. they also have a pretty conservative method from my recollection. thus, if israel can take out the entire administrative apparatus within the next 30,000 counted deaths, they can do whatever they want! Not even sure that is necessary. The media reported Yemeni fatalities at 10,000 for several years. So, if the US is backing a genocide the media stays in line.
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# ? Mar 11, 2024 22:53 |
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Shuka posted:Trump and Kushner have a very public record of courting hard line middle east governments. Kushner and US mercenaries were directly involved MBS's coup. I'm having trouble imagining any GOP candidate entertaining any pro Palestinian positions. That isn't what this discussion is about at all. But yeah, the Trump crime family is uniquely bad with regards to Saudi Arabia, you got us That doesn't change that Biden is a hard-core Zionist who is uniquely bad with regards to Israel versus every other president so far. Guy has been rooting for the IDF to murder Palestinians for 50 years, and actively sabatoged the Obama administration's efforts to hold Netanyahu accountable for settlements. It's too bad that Obama and Trump didn't get to preside over their own 30000+ Palestinian genocide so we could establish a baseline. I guess we can find out when Trump takes over the Gaza genocide in 2025 at this rate
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# ? Mar 11, 2024 23:25 |
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I kindof feel like "being bad with regards to saudis" might not be as helpful to the Israelis as "being an avowed lifelong zionist".
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# ? Mar 11, 2024 23:40 |
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At the very least there will be more opposition to the genocide from liberals and other world leaders if trump is in charge. With Biden they're stuck defending or trying to minimize. It won't amount to anything, but at least we'll stop seeing sociopathic deflections about how they're so very concerned over the dire humanitarian situation in Gaza.
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# ? Mar 11, 2024 23:42 |
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rscott posted:Since there's been a lot of talk about how Hamas and how this is all their fault I guess we can check in and see how the West Bank is doing, turns out it's not very good! I believe it was ABC News who accidentally gave away the game a few weeks ago by referring to the "Hamas-run" West Bank while reporting on the settler violence. It's all about blaming Hamas for literally everything, including when Hamas demonstrably has nothing to do with it.
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# ? Mar 12, 2024 00:01 |
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Why can't Biden stand up to Israel? Why can't he even take a stance as limited as "we gave you bombs for self-defense and you used them to murder thousands of children; from now on, you want to murder children, get your own drat bombs, we won't give you any more."?
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# ? Mar 12, 2024 03:23 |
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Because he believes wholeheartedly in the Zionist project and does not consider the lives of Palestinians to be worth anything much at all.
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# ? Mar 12, 2024 03:39 |
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Your Brain on Hugs posted:Because he believes wholeheartedly in the Zionist project and does not consider the lives of Palestinians to be worth anything much at all. It might be this. But it also might be that espousing any sentiment in support of Palestine comes at the risk of being labeled an anti-semite, with all the accoutrement that comes with it. To wit: I 100% think me making any statement denouncing Israel's actions, and supporting Palestinian sovereignty, at work, would lead to my company finding soon thereafter, reason to end my employment conveniently unrelated to my statement. And even if I'm mistaken in thinking they'd do that, It should speak volumes that i dont feel it's a 0% chance.
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# ? Mar 12, 2024 04:29 |
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Nebrilos posted:Why can't Biden stand up to Israel? Why can't he even take a stance as limited as "we gave you bombs for self-defense and you used them to murder thousands of children; from now on, you want to murder children, get your own drat bombs, we won't give you any more."? Because the majority of Americans support Israel.
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# ? Mar 12, 2024 05:26 |
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Charliegrs posted:Because the majority of Americans support Israel. The majority of Americans almost certainly support Israel's continued existence in its current form, either with Palestine remaining occupied or side by side with an ostensibly free Palestinian state, true. There's very little appetite for a solution which involves the dissolution of Israel the ethnostate and its replacement with a secular Isratin. However the majority of Americans do not clearly support continuing arms shipments to Israel: https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/05/israel-gaza-poll-voters-biden-00144976 At this point it's basically within polling margins for overall support and the clear majority of Dems don't support it. Biden doesn't get to hide behind polling if the probably quite popular option of "No more offensive weapons, the only thing you can get from us is ammo for the iron dome." This would both be effective in curtailing the slaughter and give him political cover to point to if challenged. Kagrenak fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Mar 12, 2024 |
# ? Mar 12, 2024 05:43 |
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Nebrilos posted:Why can't Biden stand up to Israel? Why can't he even take a stance as limited as "we gave you bombs for self-defense and you used them to murder thousands of children; from now on, you want to murder children, get your own drat bombs, we won't give you any more."? He doesn't want to. He is a hardcore Zionist, moreso than anyone else in Washington. He fully agrees with what Israel is doing. Any noises he makes to the contrary are just that: noises. He's just trying to appease the people who are angry by using strong words.
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# ? Mar 12, 2024 05:49 |
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Charliegrs posted:Because the majority of Americans support Israel. What about genocide?
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# ? Mar 12, 2024 06:10 |
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hadji murad posted:What about genocide? You don't have to look very hard to see that old stock America loves genocide too.
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# ? Mar 12, 2024 09:56 |
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rscott posted:Since there's been a lot of talk about how Hamas and how this is all their fault I guess we can check in and see how the West Bank is doing, turns out it's not very good! And this is a good example of what is being referred to when we talk about how Israel created Hamas and other militant opposition. Like, what do you expect people to do when you remove all possibility of making a living in the 'proper' way? Hamas and others are among the few recipients of dollars actually flowing into Palestine and are the ones trying to fight back against Israel so it's pretty logical that the more you oppress civilians and limit their options, the more they're going to give up and join these groups. This is what you do when you want to be able to accuse everyone of being Hamas and make the claim that there are no civilian casualties because they're all terrorists.
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# ? Mar 12, 2024 14:24 |
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Charliegrs posted:Because the majority of Americans support Israel. "Support Israel" is not a binary position with no gradient. "I support Israel" doesn't necessarily mean "I support Israel committing genocide." Your post is extremely low content.
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# ? Mar 12, 2024 16:39 |
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hadji murad posted:Not even sure that is necessary. The media reported Yemeni fatalities at 10,000 for several years. So, if the US is backing a genocide the media stays in line. i don't think this is quite how this stuff works - if the gaza health authorities can keep counting using their well-established and very publicly tested method, their numbers will have to be reported. if they have to start changing their method to something less conservative, then general media has an excuse. thus, in order to keep the number down, israel can 1) stop killing people or 2) prevent the health authorities from using their method as-is.
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# ? Mar 12, 2024 22:34 |
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The Sean posted:"Support Israel" is not a binary position with no gradient. "I support Israel" doesn't necessarily mean "I support Israel committing genocide."
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# ? Mar 12, 2024 23:15 |
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The Sean posted:"Support Israel" is not a binary position with no gradient. "I support Israel" doesn't necessarily mean "I support Israel committing genocide." Your post is extremely low content. But supporting Israel means supporting a country that has been, is currently, and will be committing genocide. Committing genocide and completing the ethnic cleansing of Palestine is that country's purpose. How does supporting Israel not tacitly include support of their ongoing genocide? e: Is it just "I support the idea of an Israel that doesn't commit genocide"?
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# ? Mar 12, 2024 23:18 |
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The Sean posted:"Support Israel" is not a binary position with no gradient. "I support Israel" doesn't necessarily mean "I support Israel committing genocide." Your post is extremely low content. That was sort of the point. The average American viewpoint on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is low content. You really think the average American understands what's actually going on there? The nuance of it all (even though it's not very nuanced)? No I'm sure the average American just knows that Israel are the "good guys" and the Palestinians do things like suicide bombings and shooting up raves so they are obviously the bad guys. Like that's probably the extent of the thought process for most Americans. If most Americans actually viewed the Israeli government as the genocidal maniacs they are then I don't think either of the 2 parties would be big supporters of Israel.
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# ? Mar 12, 2024 23:33 |
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Charliegrs posted:That was sort of the point. The average American viewpoint on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is low content. You really think the average American understands what's actually going on there? The nuance of it all (even though it's not very nuanced)? No I'm sure the average American just knows that Israel are the "good guys" and the Palestinians do things like suicide bombings and shooting up raves so they are obviously the bad guys. Like that's probably the extent of the thought process for most Americans. If most Americans actually viewed the Israeli government as the genocidal maniacs they are then I don't think either of the 2 parties would be big supporters of Israel. Yes trying to explain even things like the settlements to people I know is a rough, up-hill battle.
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# ? Mar 12, 2024 23:35 |
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socialsecurity posted:Yes trying to explain even things like the settlements to people I know is a rough, up-hill battle. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba edit: I guess I should say “the existence of Israel in its current state,” since at least theoretically there could be a state named “Israel” on the same land that isn’t inherently genocidal. 386-SX 25Mhz VGA fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Mar 13, 2024 |
# ? Mar 13, 2024 00:29 |
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socialsecurity posted:Yes trying to explain even things like the settlements to people I know is a rough, up-hill battle. I've had really good luck using settlements as an example of how Israel is actively sabotaging a two state solution.
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 03:46 |
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I'm guessing something set off Bibi and the Likudniks because now the JP is claiming that Biden is looking to overthrow Netanyahu. https://twitter.com/Jerusalem_Post/status/1767680776512897318 quote:The Biden administration is attempting to overthrow Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government, a senior Israeli political official said on Tuesday night.
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 03:49 |
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Obligatory "I fuckin wish" comment
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 03:56 |
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Young Freud posted:I'm guessing something set off Bibi and the Likudniks because now the JP is claiming that Biden is looking to overthrow Netanyahu. Pretty sure this is bullshit. I'm not really familiar with the Jerusalem Post, but given the other content on their Twitter feed* I'd be willing to bet that story is just clickbait. * Eg: https://x.com/Jerusalem_Post/status/1767742639938384297?s=20
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 04:02 |
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Stringent posted:Pretty sure this is bullshit. I'm not really familiar with the Jerusalem Post, but given the other content on their Twitter feed* I'd be willing to bet that story is just clickbait. I mean im sure there are studies being done by the White House on Netanyahu's political vitality but that's a far cry from actively trying to overthrow him.
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 04:08 |
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Stringent posted:Pretty sure this is bullshit. I'm not really familiar with the Jerusalem Post, but given the other content on their Twitter feed* I'd be willing to bet that story is just clickbait. Jerusalem Post is psycho Lukidnik bullshit targeted at the American right wing.
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 04:12 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 03:30 |
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fool of sound posted:Jerusalem Post is psycho Lukidnik bullshit targeted at the American right wing. At the same time, it does carry a lot of editorial weight, sharing a lot of staff between the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times.
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# ? Mar 13, 2024 04:20 |