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Riptor posted:For better or worse you're making the government's case for them. You're saying that TikTok is a place where marginalized communities have gathered and shared ideas with one another to the degree that they've become a very passionate community who are receptive to ideas promoted by that community. That a foreign power has the very real potential to influence the process by which this community communicates within itself as well as the ideas being promoted within it is an enormous concern to the US government. I don't know what the D&D rules are for saying that a post gives you a huge fascism red flag with alarm bells ringing.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:10
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Potato Salad posted:I don't know what the D&D rules are for saying that a post gives you a huge fascism red flag with alarm bells ringing. okay
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Mar 13, 2024 20:11
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We need to control how minorities and disabled communities communicate? We need to proceed with this bill without any substance from the entire intelligencia of the United States of America being able to actually cite whether TikTok is doing that? Did you also believe there were WMDs in Iraq? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 13, 2024 20:12
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Potato Salad posted:We need to control how minorities and disabled communities communicate? We need to proceed with this bill without any substance from the entire intelligencia of the United States of America being able to actually cite average that this is a that? Did you miss the foreign power part of this? No, the entire point of what I was saying is that we should prevent the method by which marginalized communities are communicating from being controlled.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:14
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We understand how fascism progresses incrementally in a society, right?Riptor posted:Did you miss the foreign power part of this? No, the entire point of what I was saying is that we should prevent the method by which marginalized communities are communicating from being controlled. This has crossed the Godwin Line at this point; bringing hands about foreign persons and foreign powers was literally the Nazi playbook.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:14
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Potato Salad posted:This has crossed the Godwin Line at this point; bringing hands about foreign persons and foreign powers was literally the Nazi playbook. I mean, a hearty gently caress you, my man. Would you have any issue with foreign governments bankrolling a political candidate? And to be clear, I am not talking about foreign persons. I am talking about a national government.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:16
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I need to step away, this has Gone Places.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:16
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Yes, but the first amendment grounds will be hard to get around.* If Congress passes a law that allows the President to exercise "threat to national security" powers inherent in his office, ho boy are your first amendment grounds going to get trampled in an eyeblink. Potato Salad posted:I don't know what the D&D rules are for saying that a post gives you a huge fascism red flag with alarm bells ringing. I think we're all about to learn the answer to that question! Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 20:16
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Riptor posted:I mean, a hearty gently caress you, my man. Would you have any issue with foreign governments bankrolling a political candidate? there would be evidence, my dude thus far we have hand wringing about people calling their representatives -- oh no, the Chinese Communists really have us there -- and fretting about pupil-dilation-heroin and...not much else. show me the real national security threat that anybody talked about in Congress, with evidence Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 20:17
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I mean given the state of policing, health care and wealth distribution in the united states, I don't know if I'd even notice what Chinese propaganda looks like. (this is a joke). More seriously in the time that TikTok has existed there have been no tik-tok based insurrections, but there sure has poo poo has been one influenced by FOX news. So we think the potential for a foreign power to maybe, some day, slip some insidious messages into their algorithm is a problem, but a news channel openly doing it is just capitalism as usual? Forgive me but I'll be more concerned when the TikTok mind control actually starts.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:18
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Riptor posted:And to be clear, I am not talking about foreign persons. I am talking about a national government. This bill clearly conflates foreign persons with a national government though.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:18
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koolkal posted:This bill clearly conflates foreign persons with a national government though. That's fair enough. I think that is wrong and should be rectified
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Mar 13, 2024 20:19
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Potato Salad posted:We need to control how minorities and disabled communities communicate? We need to proceed with this bill without any substance from the entire intelligencia of the United States of America being able to actually cite whether TikTok is doing that? I don't know much about social media but is there a reason minorities and those in the disabled community cannot use any other social media platform?
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Mar 13, 2024 20:19
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Riptor posted:That's fair enough. I think that is wrong and should be rectified To play devil's advocate with, I guess, myself, that's kind of moot. You can launder a government through a person, especially in China.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:20
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Mendrian posted:To play devil's advocate with, I guess, myself, that's kind of moot. You can launder a government through a person, especially in China. Yeah, I think the way to address this should have more to do with where the data is stored and how easily accessible it is to the Chinese government, irrespective of what sort of person or entity is nominally the owner of that data Madkal posted:I don't know much about social media but is there a reason minorities and those in the disabled community cannot use any other social media platform? The answer seems to be "well because we really like this one"
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Mar 13, 2024 20:21
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koolkal posted:This bill clearly conflates foreign persons with a national government though. Per Wikipedia: quote:As with many Chinese companies, ByteDance has an internal Chinese Communist Party (CCP) committee with Vice President Zhang Fuping serving as the company's CCP Committee Secretary. According to a report submitted to the Australian Parliament, Zhang Fuping stated that ByteDance should "transmit the correct political direction, public opinion guidance and value orientation into every business and product line."
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Mar 13, 2024 20:21
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Potato Salad posted:there would be evidence, my dude I mean poo poo, man, we can address the What If that you proffer directly. How many years ago did Paul Manafort get nailed for acting as a domestic liaison for foreign money, some of which wormed its way into the Trump campaign? Do you think that the jury arrived at that decision because of a lack of evidence, or because there was a strong body of evidence?
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Mar 13, 2024 20:22
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Riptor posted:Yeah, I think the way to address this should have more to do with where the data is stored and how easily accessible it is to the Chinese government, irrespective of what sort of person or entity is nominally the owner of that data I specifically agree with this post.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:23
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Potato Salad posted:I mean poo poo, man, how many years ago did Paul Manafort get nailed for acting as a domestic liaison for foreign money, some of which wormed its way into the Trump campaign? You're talking yourself in circles here. The problem is that the manner by which TikTok is set up means that there effectively cannot be evidence. The way to remedy that is to, you know, go through this divestiture process outlined in the bill and have TikTok's data stored in the US so that if there is reason to believe that something awry is going on, it can be adequately investigated.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:24
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Yeah if Tiktok data was stored somewhere with good data privacy laws and not a place with a history of government getting into company data for their own purposes I wouldn't imagine there would be nearly as much trouble.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:25
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Madkal posted:I don't know much about social media but is there a reason minorities and those in the disabled community cannot use any other social media platform? I suggest that there's a reason these communities do not thrive so on other platforms in the United States. Potato Salad posted:I fear that this is motivated specifically out of a desire to cudgel the pro-rights, pro-labor, humanist ecosystem on the platform that has thrived so successfully where it has been beaten out of existence on others by heavy hands on the scale. Quietly-conservative figures like Jack Dorsey and Mark Zuckerberg stifled the opportunity for this to evolve on other platforms by--in their own leaked communications and in congressional testimony--finding ways to favor right wing extremism in the same space.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:27
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socialsecurity posted:Yeah if Tiktok data was stored somewhere with good data privacy laws and not a place with a history of government getting into company data for their own purposes I wouldn't imagine there would be nearly as much trouble. Unfortunately, TikTok's data is stored in Texas
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Mar 13, 2024 20:27
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Discendo Vox posted:These would be reasons to hate the platform as social media in its own terms, but they also make it worse as a tool of deliberate manipulation. And like espionage we also do this with US owned social media. The army does it out of Cent Com in MacDill Air Force Base we dug into it years ago during the Russia thread in the context of the Arab Spring. That’s a big part of why China bans Facebook and other US platforms. It’s part of both economic and social war, that we don’t want to talk about.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:29
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Riptor posted:Yeah, I think the way to address this should have more to do with where the data is stored and how easily accessible it is to the Chinese government, irrespective of what sort of person or entity is nominally the owner of that data I am not switching over to YouTube or Instagram to keep following my follows, and most of them don't have a presence there either. I also get exposure to content from state and local government agencies and public institutions, like the state departments of transportation, depts of national resources, libraries etc. I am not going to follow those on YouInstaReels.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:29
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socialsecurity posted:Yeah if Tiktok data was stored somewhere with good data privacy laws and not a place with a history of government getting into company data for their own purposes I wouldn't imagine there would be nearly as much trouble. 
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Mar 13, 2024 20:30
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Madkal posted:I don't know much about social media but is there a reason minorities and those in the disabled community cannot use any other social media platform? I mean the short answer is because they don't. There's no organic way to raise a hand to the gay community and go, 'hey guys, we're moving over to facebook, everybody on board.' That's not how these things happen. However, also consider that how a thing works is how they are intended to work. If there is no thriving gay community on Facebook it is because Facebook is set up to make those communities fail. It is not a fault with the community itself for not getting their poo poo together and moving platforms, which is how it is often framed. Tumblr went through a similar seismic shift and has never really come back together again, although you can see pockets of those communities ironically on TikTok, but also Youtube (although that's a losing fight).
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Mar 13, 2024 20:30
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I suppose I intrinsically see this as a suppression tactic against the overwhelming support TikTok content creators post for things like Starbucks unions spreading, the occasional victory for healthcare access in a purple state, this slow expansion of things like free school lunches in a couple of states, etc. Others insist that it is genuinely about a sober discussion about domestic versus foreign media ownership, despite the conversations in Congress recently suggesting very strongly that that is not the case. I do not know how to come to common ground with somebody who cannot see through what I believe is a fig leaf of national security necessity draped over what is yet another opportunity to bash a community of leftward thinking people, queer people, disabled people etc that got too popular for the comfort of conservative and even some centrists.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:32
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tractor fanatic posted:Unfortunately, TikTok's data is stored in Texas Oh it's worse than I thought! Really though everyone should have more GDPR type rules and actually enforce them.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:34
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Tiktok's data is stored in multiple countries; they recently announced and promoted "project texas" as a planned data segregation practice to try to deflect these concerns. In practice it does not change the underlying state agreements or ongoing patterns of data sharing that are occurring.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:36
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Potato Salad posted:I suppose I intrinsically see this as a suppression tactic against the overwhelming support TikTok content creators post for things like Starbucks unions spreading, the occasional victory for healthcare access in a purple state, this slow expansion of things like free school lunches in a couple of states, etc. Others insist that it is genuinely about a sober discussion about domestic versus foreign media ownership, despite the conversations in Congress recently suggesting very strongly that that is not the case. Despite you calling me a Nazi I'm extremely sympathetic to what you're saying here. These spaces must exist, I completely agree. But I don't think that the notion that this specific gathering place for the community you're describing is potentially a very fraught and easily influenced one can be discounted, and I think China's specific record lends a lot of credence to the national security concerns. If TikTok was owned by a company based in Turkey, Japan, Greece, Brazil, or most other countries, I'd be right with you in rolling my eyes. But I just don't think it's prudent to ignore the warning signs here and I think pushing for increased accountability is the right move
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Mar 13, 2024 20:37
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Wait, is there even a remote possibility that ByteDance successfully divests, TikTok USA finds another buyer, and continues day-to-day operations in a way imperceptible to the user base? I'm forgetting the text of the bill. Does the new owner need to be US-based as well, or can it be an entity based in, say, Sweden or South Korea? EDIT: Like, if the buyer was based in Ireland and subject to GDPR standards, would that fulfill the conditions necessary for continued operation in the US?
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Mar 13, 2024 20:40
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Potato Salad posted:I suppose I intrinsically see this as a suppression tactic against the overwhelming support TikTok content creators post for things like Starbucks unions spreading, the occasional victory for healthcare access in a purple state, this slow expansion of things like free school lunches in a couple of states, etc. Others insist that it is genuinely about a sober discussion about domestic versus foreign media ownership, despite the conversations in Congress recently suggesting very strongly that that is not the case. What exactly do you think will happen to those communities if tiktok is forcibly sold to an American company? (As an aside I seriously question the assumption that tiktok is behind the resurgence of the labor movement)
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Mar 13, 2024 20:41
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A Meatslab posted:Wait, is there even a remote possibility that ByteDance successfully divests, TikTok USA finds another buyer, and continues day-to-day operations in a way imperceptible to the user base? It just has to be based in a country that is not designated as "a foreign adversary" under the definition of the bill. Whoever it is would have to shell out a lot of money and pass U.S. and Chinese anti-trust rules (and China may decide to make it more difficult in retaliation), so that is going to limit the pool of qualified buyers as well.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:44
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Riptor posted:Despite you calling me a Nazi I'm extremely sympathetic to what you're saying here. These spaces must exist, I completely agree. But I don't think that the notion that this specific gathering place for the community you're describing is potentially a very fraught and easily influenced one can be discounted, and I think China's specific record lends a lot of credence to the national security concerns. If TikTok was owned by a company based in Turkey, Japan, Greece, Brazil, or most other countries, I'd be right with you in rolling my eyes. But I just don't think it's prudent to ignore the warning signs here and I think pushing for increased accountability is the right move  Twitter to establish legal entity in Turkey, comply with law apnews.com - Sat, 20 Mar 2021 posted:…
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Mar 13, 2024 20:45
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mawarannahr posted:I think one factor could be concern about getting drowned out by right wing media, whether it's the profusion of said media or The Algorithm showing you more of it. I don't use YouTube but I gather from reading many posts over the years that it's very easy to get nutty right-wing content stuck in your feed and very difficult to remove. Maybe TikTok's algorithm is simply better at not showing you what you aren't interested in. it depend on what you look at. if you watch alot of history or follow certains and fandoms, they its way easier to fall into the nazi loop. mine so far has been nazi free. Potato Salad posted:I suppose I intrinsically see this as a suppression tactic against the overwhelming support TikTok content creators post for things like Starbucks unions spreading, the occasional victory for healthcare access in a purple state, this slow expansion of things like free school lunches in a couple of states, etc. Others insist that it is genuinely about a sober discussion about domestic versus foreign media ownership, despite the conversations in Congress recently suggesting very strongly that that is not the case. while i get where you are coming from, it honestly dont think its that. its a mix of foreign policy stuff that has some strongish bipartisan support and its also an easier tech target to hit then facebook or twitter. like personally, i dont think this changes anything outside tiktock gets sold off or someshit in a year or so after some lawsuits and stuff is stayed because of courts. Riptor posted:Despite you calling me a Nazi I'm extremely sympathetic to what you're saying here. These spaces must exist, I completely agree. But I don't think that the notion that this specific gathering place for the community you're describing is potentially a very fraught and easily influenced one can be discounted, and I think China's specific record lends a lot of credence to the national security concerns. If TikTok was owned by a company based in Turkey, Japan, Greece, Brazil, or most other countries, I'd be right with you in rolling my eyes. But I just don't think it's prudent to ignore the warning signs here and I think pushing for increased accountability is the right move i also think alot of those places already exist on discord and places like that.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:46
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Riptor posted:Despite you calling me a Nazi I'm extremely sympathetic to what you're saying here. These spaces must exist, I completely agree. But I don't think that the notion that this specific gathering place for the community you're describing is potentially a very fraught and easily influenced one can be discounted, and I think China's specific record lends a lot of credence to the national security concerns. If TikTok was owned by a company based in Turkey, Japan, Greece, Brazil, or most other countries, I'd be right with you in rolling my eyes. But I just don't think it's prudent to ignore the warning signs here and I think pushing for increased accountability is the right move Thanks for keeping a cool head -- yeah I went too far. I will re-think how to say "Listen, this sounds familiar" without it being an accusation. Re: others asking "Can't these communities use other sites?" that's unfortunately an old, well-worn thing. "Can't you just go somewhere else" over and over leaves a uhhh homeless (community-less) population every time you do it, if that makes sense. It has gotten very old at this point.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:47
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Foreign adversary countries explicitly covers Russia, Iran, China, North Korea.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:48
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mawarannahr posted:I think Turkey is a pretty bad example fair enough
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Mar 13, 2024 20:50
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Potato Salad posted:Thanks for keeping a cool head -- yeah I went too far. I will re-think how to say "Listen, this sounds familiar" without it being an accusation. I mean, thats the nature of the net as much as it sucks. i personally like discord because you can find lots of big and small safe habours and usually have a much more personal help and friendships and those groups have places on other bigger sites and people can share different things they find.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:50
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:This is from a few pages back, but I feel it's important to point out that because of how time works people who are 12-16 now will be 18-24 in the future which is why long term this could have negative ramifications. This is from like a page back but what you were responding to is colloquially known as a joke.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:53
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