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Medieval 2 had great sieges. It's been awhile so this may be foggy but you could garrison your own mix of units (up to a certain amount) that were free upkeep on top of the regular garrison as long as they were militia so if you're Venice you take like 6 pavise crossbowmen and 2 cavlarly to go wreck their siege equipment. The defensive towers were very strong, especially when you upgrade them. There were no ladders that every units could deploy, and even your most basic peasant with a bow had flaming arrows to destroy oncomming siege towers and rams. There was also a distinction between castles and cities though so most cities which were probably most of what you had were fairly vulnerable (unless you were an Italian I guess) and you'd only have maybe 2-3 castles to recruit new armies in. Sort of like the Total Warhammer games I guess with the way you can build different things in settlements but the divide was more extreme. Replenishing was also extremely hardcore in that game, in fact I don't think it even existed. You had to combine units and recruit new ones. This made for a much slower game overall.
GokuGoesSSj69 fucked around with this message at 08:05 on Mar 14, 2024 |
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Mar 14, 2024 08:01
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Pre-Shogun 2 replenishment was manual, you had to garrison units in cities and then click on each of them to get them replenished lol
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Mar 14, 2024 08:03
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Azran posted:Pre-Shogun 2 replenishment was manual, you had to garrison units in cities and then click on each of them to get them replenished lol Did you also need the actual building for that troop there? Empire was definitely how you're describing but I remember Medieval 2 being even more hardcore than that. Oh also all agent interactions were on the map, including diplomacy. Want you talk to your neighbor? Hope you have a few turns for the diplomat to walk over and he doesn't get assassinated on the way.
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Mar 14, 2024 08:13
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Yeah, any troop could be retrained in a town with a good blacksmith to be upgraded, but they wouldn't actually receive new men unless they were retrained in a settlement that could recruit that unit. And each town had a limited pool of recruitable units, which (I believe) was reset when you captured it, so your armies would genuinely get worn down as you went a-conquering; unless you were very good with losses, you needed to send your boys back to friendly territory to be replenished, and cycle in fresh troops in the meantime.
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Mar 14, 2024 08:46
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good riddance to non-replenishment but i do really miss the ability to retrain units in order to get like, weapon and armor upgrades from provincial bonuses. for the most part these dont exist anymore but i know for a fact that yuan bo can get +20 armor to recruited units using his military district ability
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Mar 14, 2024 08:57
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Kazzah posted:And each town had a limited pool of recruitable units, which (I believe) was reset when you captured it, so your armies would genuinely get worn down as you went a-conquering; unless you were very good with losses, you needed to send your boys back to friendly territory to be replenished, and cycle in fresh troops in the meantime. I don't remember a limit per se, but you needed the building and (I think) enough population to draw from. You could gently caress up your cities if you drew enough peasants from them.
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Mar 14, 2024 10:30
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GokuGoesSSj69 posted:Oh also all agent interactions were on the map, including diplomacy. Want you talk to your neighbor? Hope you have a few turns for the diplomat to walk over and he doesn't get assassinated on the way. lol this sounds amazing (on paper)
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Mar 14, 2024 12:37
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M2 kept the RTW thing where replenishing troops lowered their chevrons too, right?
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Mar 14, 2024 12:44
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yep
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Mar 14, 2024 12:45
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GokuGoesSSj69 posted:Medieval 2 had great sieges. It's been awhile so this may be foggy but you could garrison your own mix of units (up to a certain amount) that were free upkeep on top of the regular garrison as long as they were militia so if you're Venice you take like 6 pavise crossbowmen and 2 cavlarly to go wreck their siege equipment. The defensive towers were very strong, especially when you upgrade them. There were no ladders that every units could deploy, and even your most basic peasant with a bow had flaming arrows to destroy oncomming siege towers and rams. There was also a distinction between castles and cities though so most cities which were probably most of what you had were fairly vulnerable (unless you were an Italian I guess) and you'd only have maybe 2-3 castles to recruit new armies in. Sort of like the Total Warhammer games I guess with the way you can build different things in settlements but the divide was more extreme. Replenishing was also extremely hardcore in that game, in fact I don't think it even existed. You had to combine units and recruit new ones. This made for a much slower game overall. You don’t have to rely on hazy memory, Medieval 2 still exists. It can be played right now. I did recently. The sieges suck rear end. The best sieges are in Thrones of Britannia where the map is really pretty but the garrison is tiny.
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Mar 14, 2024 13:01
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Lords of the Realm 2 had the best sieges, you had to dig your way past the moat, then would capture the castle by getting a single horseman into the keep. Quite painless!
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Mar 14, 2024 13:22
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toasterwarrior posted:these new kislevite warriors are a great low tier addition but do armored kossars still beat them in terms of meat shield effectiveness? im tempted to run a frontline of greatweapon kossars if i really want that AP damage against chaos warriors or whatever If you really want melee AP for relatively cheap (ie not tzar guard) then I think GW will be better for you. They lose 6 MD and 20 models but gain 50 armor, 12 MA, 12 health per model (net slight HP loss) and some extra damage. Plus their gun attack, which doesn't do much AP but is still really nice against unarmored troops and makes them more flexible. Shielded armored kossars keep the same MD but gain armor, a silver shield, and the 12 MA but have no AP to speak of. All three have their uses though, especially if you don't have cav that can clear the field of their cavalry or large units. (I still think tzar guard should get bardiches). Personally I don't use GW armored kossars very much once I get streltsi because they kill the same melee niche but have much better ranged characteristics, but armored kossars and warriors stay in my armies through the endgame. I only phase out warriors once I can get war bear riders, honestly, but they stop being my main melee line and become flanking guards depending on what I'm facing. Armored kossars are just so durable even if they'll only kill unarmored enemies that they have a place in any army (unless you're fighting something like all trolls or mammoths or something).
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Mar 14, 2024 13:41
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gotcha, good point on maybe just leaning harder into streltsi. i dont think their melee stats are particularly impressive, designated hybrid or not, but i do believe in killing as many enemies as i can before the melee commences being a good way to win fights
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Mar 15, 2024 06:35
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toasterwarrior posted:gotcha, good point on maybe just leaning harder into streltsi. i dont think their melee stats are particularly impressive, designated hybrid or not, but i do believe in killing as many enemies as i can before the melee commences being a good way to win fights Maybe I need to play around with GW AKs more. They might be better than I give them credit for at killing armored, shielded infantry. Usually I just dump some Blizzards on them.
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Mar 15, 2024 12:23
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sieges were never good but always better than now
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Mar 15, 2024 13:17
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GokuGoesSSj69 posted:Medieval 2 had great sieges. It's been awhile so this may be foggy but you could garrison your own mix of units (up to a certain amount) that were free upkeep on top of the regular garrison as long as they were militia so if you're Venice you take like 6 pavise crossbowmen and 2 cavlarly to go wreck their siege equipment. The defensive towers were very strong, especially when you upgrade them. There were no ladders that every units could deploy, and even your most basic peasant with a bow had flaming arrows to destroy oncomming siege towers and rams. There was also a distinction between castles and cities though so most cities which were probably most of what you had were fairly vulnerable (unless you were an Italian I guess) and you'd only have maybe 2-3 castles to recruit new armies in. Sort of like the Total Warhammer games I guess with the way you can build different things in settlements but the divide was more extreme. Replenishing was also extremely hardcore in that game, in fact I don't think it even existed. You had to combine units and recruit new ones. This made for a much slower game overall. you could replenish, but it came out of the recruitment pool eg you could recruit 3 more units of dismounted nobles or replenish the equivalent of 3 units worth of men, or a mix of both. the units would also be trained as their own in a recruitment pool, and then you could mobilise them if you had the money, so if you lost several family members and their armies in battles against the mongols (see my turkish campaign many years ago) and were suddenly flush with cash you could recruit a new army fast, as long as you didn't mind them being from a collection of units and not just some doomstack (please ignore the increasing numbers of plate armoured swordsmen in later game, and 4 separate types of longbowmen for england)
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Mar 16, 2024 05:54
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GokuGoesSSj69 posted:Did you also need the actual building for that troop there? Empire was definitely how you're describing but I remember Medieval 2 being even more hardcore than that. When did they make them maps and not just chess pieces you moved around the map awkwardly?
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Mar 16, 2024 06:43
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Jarvisi posted:When did they make them maps and not just chess pieces you moved around the map awkwardly? god, i miss you, risk map
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Mar 16, 2024 06:57
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Yep. They'll never go back, but they really ought to go back.
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Mar 16, 2024 11:20
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Ok grandpa
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Mar 16, 2024 12:28
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Jarvisi posted:When did they make them maps and not just chess pieces you moved around the map awkwardly? Rome I think.
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Mar 16, 2024 12:57
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mmkay posted:Rome I think. Yep, shogun 1 and medieval 1 were risk maps. Rome 1 added the big overland map and frankly it has been worse since imo.
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Mar 16, 2024 13:28
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mmkay posted:Rome I think. Correct (I also think).
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Mar 16, 2024 15:30
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Yeah rome tw was the changeover. It's never coming back. Your only hope is a re release or some sort mobile spin off
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Mar 16, 2024 15:33
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Alright everybody I've been thinking it over. I declare the best TW to be the first one I played.
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Mar 16, 2024 15:58
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Eastbound Spider posted:Ok grandpa someday they're gonna make would-be players buy odd-numbered packs of random dudes in order to build armies or pay exorbitant prices for big individual stuff/lords and every new edition they'll phase out older versions units, forcing you to buy new ones if you want to keep playing.
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Mar 18, 2024 03:53
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CA has heard your complaints about siege and a desire to return to WH2 mechanics, so in the next patch whenever you go to siege a city instead of fighting a battle you will be asked to solve a sudoku puzzle through a multiple choice question, two of the choices will be correct but only one will be the allowed answer. Or you'll have to solve one of these. 
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Mar 18, 2024 07:10
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When you go to do a siege, it boots up a shogun 2 map.
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Mar 18, 2024 07:57
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wiegieman posted:When you go to do a siege, it boots up a shogun 2 map. Hooray they'd be fun that way
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Mar 18, 2024 15:03
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I like the gate battles in hams but literally every single time at least one enemy unit that climbs the walls will break and retreat further into the base and recover behind my lines, just intolerable
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Mar 18, 2024 15:20
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ngl modders are making siege maps and all and im kinda frustrated that not one of them was like...ill just make a bunch of really simple siege maps that the ai has less of a chance loving up, with bigass streets and only one side to orient towards or whatever
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Mar 18, 2024 15:26
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Yeah, there's a bunch of LORE ACCURATE mods that make elaborate siege maps full of choke points and kill zones and they just sound miserable to fight on (unless you're defending)
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Mar 18, 2024 16:57
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I appreciate the challenges of having to work around all kinds of armies by all kinds of factions in TWH3 and making a siege map that feels fun for the attacker and defender for the majority of factions is an unenviable task, so the real question is how well did seiges work in Troy and Pharoah?
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Mar 18, 2024 17:08
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no one remembers troy no one played pharoah it will be a mystery forever
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Mar 18, 2024 17:11
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CA overcomplicates sieges. Just change the aesthetic of the bridge maps and add a tower or two for the defenders. That's such a huge advantage on its own and instead of it being a chasm covered by a bridge have it be a big beefy wall with a big ol' hole smashed out of it. Most siege maps either get the scale of the fort/city very, very wrong or it all goes unused.
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Mar 18, 2024 17:18
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it's odd that the Grom/Eltharion siege didn't become the blueprint for them going foward as it's the most fun sieges have ever been in tww
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Mar 18, 2024 17:20
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is that the one where you hide grom in a forest for 40 minutes and win
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Mar 18, 2024 17:24
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Settra is the best TK start, embrace thunderdome and routinely get 1.2k kills with your lord
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Mar 18, 2024 17:59
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Third World Reagan posted:no one remembers troy It's weird because they literally gave troy away and still nobody played it.
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Mar 18, 2024 18:06
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I put maybe 30 turns into troy, maybe
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Mar 18, 2024 18:07
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