|
BonHair posted:Aren't there some varieties of Indian English that are basically gibberish to pedoph islanders? Malaysian/Singaporean/Cantonese English can be a bit weird too.
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 08:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 07:09 |
|
|
There's actually quite a few dialects of English, most obviously from the broken versions from where it parachutes into the middle of foreign lands and adapted into a weird pidgin or creole, but also there's a number of ways people speak in Britain and America that are weird enough to be dialects, although that can be politically loaded. Most prominently was the controversy over teaching ebonics in schools.Air Skwirl posted:But that's flat out false, it's harder than it should be to live in a city without a car in America, but I know lots of people who do it. The people I know who do it mainly make use of cabs.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 09:02
|
|
|
soviet elsa posted:What the gently caress even is language??? My native language is "Arabic." But it sounds a bit like when I went to Morocco. Everyone understood me, because of TV broadcasts using my accent, but guess how long I lasted before begging for English instead? Or there is Hebrew. A notably weird case I studied very religiously for years. Can't ask for the bathroom in Tel Aviv without us having to revert to using Bible quotes. That map substantially overstates dialects in Arabic though. The Tunisian coast and Tunisian interior speak the same, it’s 99.9% mutually intelligible. Yeah someone in El Kef might say "Gattous" instead of "Qattous" but they’re still obviously talking about a cat. No one puts New York and Chicago as different dialects of English. Algerian Arabic is also fully intelligible with Tunisian, just a few words here and there an and accent difference - but not any struggle to understand in the slightest. E: it also maybe is showing dialects that used to be important like 100 years ago, but now disappeared except for two 80 year olds in a farm? Like those language maps of France that show Occitania as speaking a different dialect from Paris that also don’t match reality.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 09:46
|
|
|
redleader posted:we say, as we post in english - a language that barely has regional variants, let alone full-blown dialects* I don't think this is really true outside of North America, where their variety of English really is remarkably uniform outside of a few exceptions, for typical New World reasons. Outside of that, if you're a non-native speaker accustomed to Received Pronunciation and/or the standard sitcom American accent, you might struggle to understand Irishpeople or Australians, or even people from certain parts of England. That's not getting into Indian English, or the English used as a lingua franca in parts of Africa. And that's not getting into the dozens of English-based creoles which may or may not exist on a continuum with English proper.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 13:48
|
|
|
Phlegmish posted:I don't think this is really true outside of North America, where their variety of English really is remarkably uniform outside of a few exceptions, for typical New World reasons. Outside of that, if you're a non-native speaker accustomed to Received Pronunciation and/or the standard sitcom American accent, you might struggle to understand Irishpeople or Australians, or even people from certain parts of England. That's not getting into Indian English, or the English used as a lingua franca in parts of Africa. And that's not getting into the dozens of English-based creoles which may or may not exist on a continuum with English proper. Accents play a big role in intelligibility in practice too. My best friend is from Barbados and I have difficulty understanding some of her relatives who have thick Bajan accents even if they're not using specifically Bajan vocabulary.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 13:58
|
|
|
Paradoxically, the general rule is that the closer to a language's geographical point of origin, the more dialects there will be that a student or speaker of the standardised variety will not be able to understand. E.g. to me East Anglian is harder to understand than Nigerian English (I studied the Received Pronunciation variety of English). Though a lot of it also comes down to personal aptitude/attitude.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 14:20
|
|
|
The idea that English doesn't have dialects/regional variants is insane to me. How could one even think that? Even in the US there are many dialects with unique vocabulary, very different pronunciations, and even some varying (and conflicting) grammatical structures. Accents are part of dialect, as they represent different pronunciation norms. In English, most of the unique features of dialects are in the accent, because English has some insane variability and flexibility in the vowel space compared to most other languages.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 15:08
|
|
|
I've heard that Ukrainian is to Russian as Netherlandish is to German. And no one is saying those two are the same language or that The Netherlands should be part of Germany or anything
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 15:31
|
|
|
Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:I've heard that Ukrainian is to Russian as Netherlandish is to German. And no one is saying those two are the same language or that The Netherlands should be part of Germany or anything That's because it should return to the sea from whence it came not Germany.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 15:48
|
|
|
Youse clearly haven't been to Glasgow
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 16:07
|
|
|
BonHair posted:Aren't there some varieties of Indian English that are basically gibberish to pedoph islanders? Most of the places on these islands are gibberish to other people on them.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 17:14
|
|
|
just imagine that there are several versions of English that sound like Boomhauer from King of the Hill (but worse) to outsiders, and that all of these accents are less than a hour's drive from each other.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 17:17
|
|
|
Boomhaur is actually speaking English, though, unlike people from Birmingham.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 18:01
|
|
|
redleader posted:we say, as we post in english - a language that barely has regional variants, let alone full-blown dialects* No dialects? You've never heard white people complain about not being able to understand half the dialog in The Wire?
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 18:09
|
|
|
People in this thread have a tendency either to over-estimate the comprehensibility of various English-from-England accents, or are really lovely at understanding people in general. Never been to Scotland, but have been all over England and Ireland without any issue understanding everyone, except drunks in pubs - which admittedly is a large fraction of the English. It’s probably also harder for non-native speakers and/or people who aren’t exposed to media from all over the anglophone world. I saw a Jamaican movie a long time ago and I could not understand the black Jamaican characters hardly at all. That’s the only time I remember having trouble understanding someone speaking their native English though, not counting English-based creoles like Tok Pisin. The Scottish movie The Angel’s Share was also kinda hard to understand and I think I put on subtitles. Never been to Scotland irl. Saladman fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Mar 17, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 18:13
|
|
|
Yeah, in Trainspotting there's like a ten minute sequence where they added subtitles for the American release.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 18:30
|
|
|
Air Skwirl posted:No dialects? You've never heard white people complain about not being able to understand half the dialog in The Wire?
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 18:49
|
|
|
My parents didn't have much of a problem with the Baltimore accent, but I would have to explain some of the slang to them. "Hey, Skwirl, what's a 'baby momma'"
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 19:30
|
|
|
Aaronsironurn.mp4
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 19:43
|
|
Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
|
Your local dialect is supposed to be incomprehensible to out of towners, how else would you know who isn't from around here??
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 20:06
|
|
|
American media in particular I think often is less willing to acknowledge the diversity of American accents, while the UK plays around with them a lot more. I think what makes it hardest to really compare American dialects and language divergence is that all the biggest Anglosphere countries, America, Canada, Britain, and Australia, all have their dominant way of talking similar enough that we don't really have the comparison that many European countries have with another country with a fairly similar language having enough cultural and political separateness to enforce its own rules separately. Most of the significantly different dialects don't have that kind of political weight behind them. I mentioned ebonics, and I think anybody interested in the idea of english dialects should give that a look. There was a time when there was a movement to teach about the different way that black people commonly talk in America, not as an alternative to teaching standard American English, but in addition to, in order to better teach them about language in general and what differences there were between that and the standard. Many people commonly use "bad grammar" but since they do genuinely get across information with that bad grammar, that is still valid as language even if it isn't as commonly understood. Some of the justifications made were in the vein of the Bilingual Education act of 1968, where people who genuinely were not native speakers of English would be given resources for learning their own language as well as English. I believe the end result was educationally successful, but socially and politically a failure. Many people freaked out about it in a similar way to the way that currently they are freaking out about the scourge of "critical race theory", and worried about white students having black education forced upon them, but there were also some black families uncomfortable with the idea of the education system reinforce the idea of them and their language as different, and so the whole thing was torpedoed. Linguistics shies away from the term "ebonics" as well, to avoid association with the controversy, instead preferring the much snappier "african american vernacular english". Just rolls off the tongue.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 20:22
|
|
|
Saladman posted:It’s probably also harder for non-native speakers and/or people who aren’t exposed to media from all over the anglophone world. I've worked in international setting with close co-operation with Irish and Swedes and we naturally used English in communication. English is not my native language and I understand spoken English relatively well and speak it passably but I hated doing radio communication with the Irish. They could understand me just fine, but jesus christ trying to understand them always took massive effort. With Swedes I had absolutely no problem in communicating but with Irish it was always 'say again' and trying to decipher what the gently caress I'd just heard. I guess non-natives just use simpler and clearer English when communicating with each other.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 21:03
|
|
|
Air Skwirl posted:Yeah, in Trainspotting there's like a ten minute sequence where they added subtitles for the American release. Or one of my favourite examples, Scarlett Johansson getting directions from a rando in Glasgow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lGvPAGhW7M
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 22:04
|
|
|
The Anglos have only been in America for a few centuries and haven't had as much time to develop wacky dialect and accents. Meanwhile they've been in England for 1500 years. Which is why you can cross the street in the UK and the people there will have a totally incomprehensible accent and a different word for bread.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 22:07
|
|
|
Spanish Speakers have only been in americas for about a hundred years more and theyve had no trouble developing a european like web of incomprehensibility among their dialects
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 22:11
|
|
|
Some of you people need to meet some working class Bostonians.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 22:38
|
|
|
OddObserver posted:Some of you people need to meet some working class Bostonians. Seriously. Anyone who thinks Americans dont have accents hasnt spent 5 seconds in a dunkin
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 22:48
|
|
|
I feel like people assume a lot about accents from tv shows when people with truly out there accents don't get put on tv regularly.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 22:51
|
|
|
socialsecurity posted:I feel like people assume a lot about accents from tv shows when people with truly out there accents don't get put on tv regularly. I have a whole thing with TV and movies where the more I think about how flat and non-diverse the accents are, it bugs me. I guess one of the first things any actor learns is how to talk standard hollywood, and you have to go through special channels to make it big if you can't drop your personal accent, like be a comedian. But a;sp there's always the option to have actors emulate and imitate real-world accents in order to present them onscreen, which some people have feelings against, but actors pretend for most anything else, and it's how British media does things (especially when they're sending actors over to America). The first Star Wars movie was extremely intentional with its accents, because almost all the actors outside of the main cast were british, but only the imperials kept their natural accent or were left undubbed. The original undubbed audio for the cantina scene is pretty striking. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53qJp7463dA. It's disappointing to me how more recent Star Wars is mostly just standard hollywood accents for everybody. Original trilogy Tattooine I guess in particular is very linguistically diverse. FreudianSlippers posted:The Anglos have only been in America for a few centuries and haven't had as much time to develop wacky dialect and accents. Meanwhile they've been in England for 1500 years. Which is why you can cross the street in the UK and the people there will have a totally incomprehensible accent and a different word for bread. Pretty sure there's some European languages that are less than 400 years old. SlothfulCobra fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Mar 17, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 23:09
|
|
|
BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:Spanish Speakers have only been in americas for about a hundred years more and theyve had no trouble developing a european like web of incomprehensibility among their dialects Is usually new words, slang mostly, and not trully a completelly new accent. People in america usually talk with a derived copy of Islas Canarias accent.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 23:14
|
|
|
FreudianSlippers posted:The Anglos have only been in America for a few centuries and haven't had as much time to develop wacky dialect and accents. Meanwhile they've been in England for 1500 years. Which is why you can cross the street in the UK and the people there will have a totally incomprehensible accent and a different word for bread. According to people who study the language professionally, the closest you get to English as it was spoken during the time of Shakespeare is West Virginian hillbillies.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 23:23
|
|
|
Air Skwirl posted:According to people who study the language professionally, the closest you get to English as it was spoken during the time of Shakespeare is West Virginian hillbillies. That's not actually true. EDIT: unless West Virginian hillbillies sounded like they're from Somerset
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 23:27
|
|
|
Tei posted:Is usually new words, slang mostly, and not trully a completelly new accent. No, I have an aunt that's Spanish (born and raised in Barcelona) and she has "opinions" on how South Americans speak.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 23:31
|
|
|
Air Skwirl posted:No, I have an aunt that's Spanish (born and raised in Barcelona) and she has "opinions" on how South Americans speak. Tei is also Spanish. But yeah when I was learning Spanish I was told “Everyone has trouble understanding Mexicans. Only reason they can do it is because they have so much tv.” Then got told the same thing about Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Chileans, argentines, Venezuelans and Nicaraguans. The Spanish I was taught in high school and college seems to match up to no country’s dialect as far as I can tell
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 23:35
|
|
|
BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:The Spanish I was taught in high school and college seems to match up to no country’s dialect as far as I can tell This happens a lot. The "standard" Mandarin you learn in Chinese class is natively spoken by very few Chinese people. It's a semi-artificial 20th century construction based on Beijing dialect but not exactly.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 23:41
|
|
|
Air Skwirl posted:No, I have an aunt that's Spanish (born and raised in Barcelona) and she has "opinions" on how South Americans speak. I can understand spanish from all latinoamerica, but could probably have problems with some tick accent in some remote area 200 km from where I live. Tick accents exist, but are rare, usually you can easily understand anyone speaking in spanish. The main differences is in vocabulary, new words and slangs. But but these are usually to pick.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 23:46
|
|
|
isn't colombia held up as the gold standard for clear, intelligible accent? spain-spanish is crazy different compared to what a majority of native spanish speakers actually speak
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 00:08
|
|
|
i say swears online posted:isn't colombia held up as the gold standard for clear, intelligible accent? spain-spanish is crazy different compared to what a majority of native spanish speakers actually speak No idea about Colombian Spanish in particular, but that's the way being a colonial power works. There's way the gently caress more people in India that speak English than there are people in England that speak English.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 00:13
|
|
|
i say swears online posted:isn't colombia held up as the gold standard for clear, intelligible accent? spain-spanish is crazy different compared to what a majority of native spanish speakers actually speak No, no really. Colombia has a lot of cool words, and sounds sweet. I wish it was the standard he. All of america copy the sounds from Islas canarias. So they are have a accent that is very similar and slightly different than the spanish one. But we can still understand each other no problem.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 00:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 07:09 |
|
|
Even within England itself mutual intelligibility can break down thanks to accents. Here's an English reporter interviewing a guy from Liverpool, and you can't convince me he understood a thing of that last sentence. He just hoped the Scouser said something funny and did a hesitant laugh just to react in some way. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwaDyG5lVLM
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 00:37
|
|
